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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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I am struggling to formulate a concise and cogent answer to a question I have seen occasionally vaulted against Objectivism by its critics. Though worded in various ways, it comes down to this:

"How would an Objectivist government come into existence in the first place without a ruling elite to form and run it?"

For instance, the United States Constitution essentially arose, not so much from the masses, but from a small cadre of well-educated, propertied white males who had the knowledge and wherewithal to understand the mistakes of history and to form a better government from those lessons. Over time, the "franchise" of voting expanded to universality, with government expansion correlating with that voting expansion. The government schools allegedly formed to make the masses educated enough to understand civics and act responsibly in participating in the machinery of government have not achieved those purported goals. These and other observations suggest that even with a constitutional republic of limited government, universal suffrage is not a good idea. The alternative is a "qualified" suffrage or what Objectivism's critics would call "elitism." Ironically, these same critics could say the same about the "enlightened" people who campaign for "enlightened" forms of coercion ranging from forced association to forbidden consumption.

Someone may have written a full elucidation of an answer already. I have not read Ayn Rand Answers yet. But the idea of objective qualifications for participating as a "full citizen" of a country's government and not just a "resident" within that country's borders suggest a form of "elitism" that will draw fire. I still see no way around it if people want a functional government.

I recall a poster on another Objectivist forum years ago suggesting a "House of Plebes" where the "non-citizen" legal residents would have veto power over any bill passed by the "citizens," all via their elected representatives. I have not studied "comparative politics" either so I cannot contrast the American Congress against British Parliament, etc. All of these deserve exploration but I have not seen that. If someone can name a good source, please post.

Post 1

Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

The challenge itself is on a faulty, primacy-of-consciousness foundation. It is a version of the challenge: Who decides? As in: Who decides what is to count as "reality"? Or: Who decides what is to count as "fair" (e.g., a "fair" price, etc.)? Or: Who decides how much taxes each citizen should have to pay? Or: Who decides how much regulation has to be in place? Or: Who decides how long a petty thief should remain in jail?

Before answering the challenge, I would like to first see it put on a firm foundation. Your post, in my mind, did not provide the kind of foundation needed to avoid the Appeal to the Primacy of Consciousness (or the APC fallacy, for short).

Ed


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Post 2

Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I think you have two related questions. One about how such a government could come into being. And the other about universal sufferage versus something else.

Taking the last question first, I'd say that it is the specifics of the constitution and the degree to which it is honored that will determine what can be done by vote. If the constitution is an adequate political expression of individual rights as a principle and the description of the requirments of objective law (things like due process, rules of evidence, etc.) AND the constitution is honored religiously then we have an Objectivist government, because people can't vote for a tyrannical act and the government isn't permitted to behave tyrannically. What I'm saying it that universal sufferage is required under objective law (Equal rights under the law) but it can't hurt since people can't vote to violate the rights of others.

How to get there? The first question wants to know how we get that kind of government. Well, we already have it in form. The founding fathers formed a constitutional republic - we need to reclaim the structure and impliment it in detail. Revoltions, like ours, are always carried out by a minority. Saying that they were "propertied white males" is ceding an implied argument to Marxists and Progressives. The mechanism needed for political change of any kind is always the same. It is the spreading of a set of ideas and those ideas purport to save people from the things that they fear, or hate or that are oppressing them. I see government schools going away in the next few generations. There was no way to overcome union influence with the current set of politicians and the power of the teachers unions. But we might have seen the high-water mark of teacher's unions with the Scott Walker drama that recently played out. If we have a continuing revolution (re Tea Party) among the voters, we will see constantly raising quality among politicians and that starts taking away money from the bad special interests and freeing the marketplace to improve the educational system. The colleges are different and need to have the administrations regain control from the professors and focus on teaching, not research, not propoganda, and having things like Marxism taught by Objectivists not by Marxists (and the same in History, Lit., Journalism, Economics, etc.)

This revolution has been driven by government-caused market failures, which has slowly awakened many voters to the need for fiscal conservatism and for a constitutional government, and opened channels for libertarians to gain more air time and more books published. It is a slow process of voter awareness and awakening to politicians elected to still better politicians to political change occuring to resulting changes to the economic power of special interests to privatizing of schools to popular demands for a more alternatives to a liberal media to state governments making changes to their colleges. And, it only takes a very active, knowledgable minority to make the changes happen. They will drive another portion of the citizens who agree even though they aren't as knowledgable. Then the conveyor belt of generational transmission of the culture will be what finishes the job.

Everybody (myself included) wants to have some way to make it happen in a much shorter period of time. I don't think it is likely to be shorter than say 3 or 4 generations. (I'd love to be wrong on that and see it all happen before I die.)

Post 3

Friday, June 15, 2012 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Elitism is a word that gets thrown alot and abused alot as well. I do not think that elitism is wrong per se. I think it depends on what the educational and philosophical backgrounds are. As Steve said you only need a minority to see results. The result of the masses don't matter much. In fact I think that they are so epistemologically compromised that educating them is a waste of time and effort.

Post 4

Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is a philosophy, created by Ayn Rand. If it ever took a political form it would be a government or philosophers. Individuals with better skills of persuasion would lead the rest in a similar fashion as people with money lead the way now. But there was this guy Solomon, philosopher king, don't know much about him though.

Gav

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Post 5

Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 3:04amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you mentioned the masses, saying,"...educating them is a waste of time and effort."

Just one of the nice things about a free market system is everyone educates themselves (that is, pays for their own education - not the taxpayers via government schools) - none of us has waste any time or effort.

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Post 6

Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Gavrosh:

Are you employed by The Onion?

Sam


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Post 7

Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

Do you expect Gavrosh to come back and respond with something like this?:
Sam, thank you for the question. What means 'The Onion'? Can you peel back some of the layers for me?
:-)

Of course, now he may actually turn his attention directly to this post, take critical account of my partly-self-appointed 'title', and then 'innocently' ask:
Ed, how wonderful it is for you to chime in. It's so very rare to ever hear from you on this site. Please tell me, though, what means 'Director of Outreach'? Is it where you make fun of newcomers?
:-)

Ed


Post 8

Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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Gavrosh,

Welcome to RoR. You wrote:
Objectivism is a philosophy, created by Ayn Rand. If it ever took a political form it would be a government o[f] philosophers. Individuals with better skills of persuasion would lead the rest in a similar fashion as people with money lead the way now. But there was this guy Solomon, philosopher king, don't know much about him though.
The insinuation being two-fold:

1) That the political facilitation of cultural Objectivism would require a philosopher-king.
2) That King Solomon is a good example of where that would lead.

Taking the second insinuation first, I got the following from the Jewish Virtual Library:

Solomon was also renowned for his other building projects in which he used slave labor from the Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. He spent 13 years building his own palace, and also built a city wall, a citadel called the Millo, a palace for the daughter of Pharaoh (who was one of his wives) and facilities for foreign traders. He erected cities for chariots and horsemen and created storage cities. He extended Jerusalem to the north and fortified cities near the mountains of Judah and Jerusalem.

 

Solomon’s downfall came in his old age. He had taken many foreign wives, whom he allowed to worship other gods. He even built shrines for the sacrifices of his foreign wives. Within Solomon’s kingdom, he placed heavy taxation on the people, who became bitter. He also had the people work as soldiers, chief officers and commanders of his chariots and cavalry. He granted special privileges to the tribes of Judah and this alienated the northern tribes. The prophet Ahijah of Shiloh prophesied that Jeroboam son of Nebat would become king over ten of the 12 tribes, instead of one of Solomon’s sons.

--http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Solomon.html

 

So, it appears that Solomon utilized slaves, upheld religious freedom, heavily taxed his people, drafted people into his army, and redistributed wealth by picking winners and losers (cronyism, nepotism, etc.) in a centralized, command-and-control economic scheme. Well, aside from the religious freedom (or "tolerance" of rival religions), that pretty much counts Solomon out as being an exemplar of the kind of philosopher-king that you would get from appointing an Objectivist as head-of-state. Objectivism is pretty much an antithesis to slavery, taxation, a military draft, and central planning of an economy. So Solomon is not a good example.

 

But, even still, does the political facilitation of cultural Objectivism really require a philosopher-king?

 

No, it just requires a free press. You see, if folks are free to dissent and to ridicule -- then you don't need that one guy at the top to have had all of the needed answers for the  governance of a country. Instead, you need an adept culture that can hold his feet to a fire. You need outspoken citizen intellectuals. Here's Ayn Rand talking about such a thing in an essay called: "For the New Intellectual":

The intellectual ... sets a society's course by transmitting ideas from the "ivory tower" of the philosopher to the university professor--to the writer--to the artist--to the newspaperman--to the politician--to the movie maker--to the night club singer--to the man in the street. ... Those who deal with the sciences studying nature have to rely on the intellectual for philosophical guidance and information: for moral values, for social theories, for political premises, for psychological tenets and, above all, for the principles of epistemology, that crucial branch of philosophy which studies man's means of knowledge and makes all other sciences possible. The intellectual is the eyes, ears and voice of a free society ...

So, the intellectually-transmitted ideas permeate everywhere from the politician all the way down to the common man in the street, and they involve such things as morals, social theories, political premises, and basic knowledge accrual. It is apparent, then, that Objectivism would not need a philosopher-king, but merely some kind of communication for free intellectuals -- perhaps posting on some kind of internet discussion forum somewhere. Now, I don't know where you'd find such a thing (an internet discussion forum devoted to advancing the philosophy of Objectivism), but I'm sure if you keep your eyes open, you may find just such a thing out there somewhere. Heck, it could even be right under your very nose.

 

:-)

 

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/17, 12:42pm)


Post 9

Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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*Kyle says in a light-hearted manner*

Ed, you're such a smart-ass.

Post 10

Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Kyle,

Aha, now I fear that I shouldn't have made such a big deal out of the fact that, in order for human politics to improve toward perfection, then folks would have to be left free to dissent and ridicule!

:-)

Ed

p.s. You can feel free to take pot-shots at me. I can handle clever jib-jabs from rich moviestars such as yourself. How much did you make from The Matrix trilogy, anyway?

:-)


Post 11

Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You could always ruthlessly crush all dissenting opinion you don't agree with; that works half-well for most dictators. What perks does the position "Director of Outreach" give anyway? If none of the perks include curtailing all "incorrect" opinions, you're missing out my man.


P.S. I'm paid "under the table" for all my roles in movies. I don't like to make any mention of my earnings anywhere. Can't have the IRS finding out how much I'm making. I'm sure an Objectivist such as yourself would understand.

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Post 12

Monday, June 18, 2012 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Elites are not an unavoidable problem until you hand them guns.

That is why elitism in politics is killer.


I suggest that a tactic to deal politically with elites in politics is to start a 'meme' campaign (don't shoot me for using that weasel word) to define politics and politicians accurately:

Politics: the art and science of getting what we want from other citizens using any means short of actual violence.

Politicians: those lurching among us pre-occupied with what they want from other citizens, often to the point of distraction.

When defined that way, it puts a certain shadow on the whole arena of human endeavor; it paints politics with a well deserved unseemliness.

If war is politics by other means, then politics is begging by other means. It is a progression.

"Will you please give me what I want?"

"No, but thank-you for asking."

"Give me what I want."

"No."

"BANG!"

I might have missed a few steps, like the constant lies and propaganda, but the point is made, I think.

Classic politics requires less effort than actual value-for-value commerce as a means of getting what we want from other citizens.

So does begging.

Elites in politics are mostly begging to be made emperors.

Why would any free person ever willingly agree to that?

regards,
Fred

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Post 13

Monday, June 18, 2012 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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Kyle,
What perks does the position "Director of Outreach" give anyway?
Well [ahem] I'm ... er ... glad you asked. But the perks are ... they are just too many to list so ... so I've put some thought into what my answer should be and ... and I've included only a select few items that really do stand out (the "Top 10"):

1) a good benefits plan -- due to corporate spying and other such things, I'm not allowed to go into any great detail on this item, but you'll just have to trust that when I "retire" I'll have a substantial (though perhaps merely hypothetical) nest egg
2) payment-per-word-posted -- even if it is merely a thread-hijack and totally off of the top of my head and with nothing to do with whatever it is that anybody else wants to hear or even read about (this one, folks may glean, explains a lot)
3) secret Objectivist decoder ring -- this fancy gadget allows me to decipher what it is that others are saying, even if they don't really mean it that way; hence my uncanny ability to appear to be able to think for others and my unwavering lack of hesitation with regard to placing words into their mouths (critics may retort that this also explains a lot)
4) a coffee mug that says: "Who's your Director?" and it has a picture of me sitting on the top of a mountain (in a director's chair) with a bull-horn and a phone book
5) a Rolex watch with the words "D. O., Rebirth of Reason" stencilled into the side -- this doesn't do anything fancy, like the decoder ring does, but it's a Rolex (i.e., it doesn't have to do anything fancy!)
6) a subtitle, D.O., which can be easily mistaken for the official subtitle, D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy), thereby placing me into precarious positions whenever someone yells: "Is there a doctor in the house?!"
7) discounted "troll-distress" insurance -- this insurance plan allows me to file for financial reimbursement when my interactions with internet trolls causes me undue emotional distress or severe mental fatigue
8) a lifetime membership on the Board of Directors at the Ayn Rand School for the Gifted
9) a gold-colored "Atlas" trophy with the following words engraved at the bottom: Our first and undoubtedly best Director of Outreach!
10) a "Get-out-of-Statism-free" card which allows me to bypass others in the line at the local DMV, to write up my own version of a 1040 tax form when I feel like perhaps I should be paying some taxes, and to opt out of ObamaCare and countless other unconstitutional mandates

:-)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/18, 4:59pm)


Post 14

Monday, June 18, 2012 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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I'd better stop here; I've assisted in the derailing of this thread for long enough.

Ed,

Thank you for the wonderful show; you certainly can dance. Your last comment made my day, and I could continue on for a long time, but I fear that I may be apprehended by the train station's security personnel.

So, farewell, until next time (I promise I won't sing a departing song).

Post 15

Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 12:44amSanction this postReply
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I don't necessarily agree that elitism in politics is a problem. I do think you need elites in politics. the founders were elites after all.

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Post 16

Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
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As for elites, they don't bother me. So long as they don't bother me.

Post 17

Friday, June 22, 2012 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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LOL@Ed.

Post 18

Friday, June 22, 2012 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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;-)

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