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Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, I'm new to objectivism. It seems like a great philosophy, I love rationality and stuff, but I have a few problems to come to an understanding of. Most importantly, the idea of life as the ultimate value. I certainly do value my life, but why does it have to be an ultimate value? Couldn't I ultimately value something else and live as a secondary value or as a means to attain the primary one? There are certain thing I value that I wouldn't hesitate to end my life for. If I primarily valued my life, wouldn't I in no circumstance allow myself to die for something, because doing so would be valuing it above my life? Is this what objectivism teaches or is there an error in my understanding?

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Post 1

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Raiden,

Welcome to RoR!

There is a 'sister-site' that was created by Joe Rowlands, the man that owns and maintains this site and it has some excellent articles that cover most of Objectivism: Objectivism 101. One of the articles is entitled 'Life: The Ultimate Value.' Take a look at the table of contents which, by itself, shows you a good outline of Objectivism.

As to your question, remember that you can NOT value anything when you are dead. So, from that aspect it is your ultimate value - that is it is the prerequisite of all values.

Valuing something else so greatly that you would not want to live without it is not the same as valuing it more than life. I could value life above all else, but be so sick, and in such pain that I want to die.

And, you can't choose to have x instead of life so that you could enjoy it because you think it's of greater value to you than life. Won't work.

And there is a different use of the word "ultimate" - you get up in the morning so you can go to work, you go to work to earn some money, you use the money to buy groceries, etc. In that sense the end of the trail is 'life.' It is the goal that is behind the other sub-goals - to live your life.

You also need to remember that there is a difference between your personal values and what one can say is of value to all humans given human nature. We can value things in a logical, objective way, and still have differing values (preferences), but some things are objectively of value to all humans, even if any individual doesn't act as if, or understand, that a given value is that.

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Post 2

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Rand uses this formulation because life is a necessary condition of  holding or acheiving any other values; it makes them possible.  Life is not identical to physical survival.  Certain conditions can be necessary for life to be worth living, and we can hold some values so high that we wouldn't care to live without them - the people we love or the country we live in (or want to live in).  Thus in unfortunate circumstances we could be willing to die, or at least to risk dying, for some such indispensable value.  You can say, accurately, that you value someone or something more than life itself, but that is only because you value a certain kind of life.  Life remains explanatorily prior, and that's what makes it the ultimate value even in a case like this.

Nathaniel Branden wrote a short essay on this in The Objectivist Newsletter years ago, but I don't think it's in print.


Post 3

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome to RoR, Raiden.

Steve and Peter gave great answers. In a 1961 essay called "The Objectivist Ethics," Ayn Rand wrote this:
Without an ultimate goal or end, there can be no lesser goals or means: a series of means going off into an infinite progression toward a nonexistent end is a metaphysical and epistemological impossibility. It is only an ultimate goal, an end in itself, that makes the existence of values possible. Metaphysically, life is the only phenomenon that is an end in itself: a value gained and kept by a constant process of action.
What she is saying, then, is that there isn't -- besides "life" -- there isn't another end-in-itself. Try to think about the opposite. Imagine a value as an end-in-itself, inherent in nature, but with absolutely no relation to life or to living beings. How could this value get "valued?"

If you think about values in the most generic sense of the term, a value is simply something sought -- i.e., it is simply that which someone or something "acts to gain or keep." [Rand's words] In this broadest sense of the term "value," there cannot ever be a value without reference to a life form capable of acting; in this case, of acting to gain or keep it.

When folks talk about values that are 100% dependent on the idiosyncracies of an individual life, they are talking about subjective values. Subjective values exist but are not always the most important ones. When folks talk about values that are '100% divorced' from all life, they are talking about intrinsic values. Intrinsic values do not necessarily exist beyond being a figment of imagination and so they must first be proved by logical argument.

The final kind of value is an objective value. Steve mentioned this kind. It is something good for you, whether you know it or like it, or not. I hope you find this answer helpful or at least interesting.

Ed


Post 4

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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I can see how being alive is the prerequisite of being capable of valuing things, but it is not the act of valuing things that I value, it is the values themselves. I try not to let things let me down, so if for example my entire family died, I could eventually move on. I can imagine being alive without them, getting over the grieving and moving on. Yet, should the situation arise, I would die so that the can live. I value their existence, not just my subjective happiness because of their existence.

Post 5

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Raiden, I think Peter and Steve gave a good answer when they touched on the notion of a particular kind of life. Not just mechanistic life, but what Aristotle called a eudaemonic one, i.e. one that is worth living. If you existed in a dictatorship and your life was nothing more than living in a prison camp, then certainly there is no value in that. If you'd be willing to die to save a loved one, then it could be said you could no longer have a eudaemonic existence without them (or at least you couldn't bear the thought of continuing on if you knew you could have saved their lives, which means it compromises your ability to live eudaemonically).

I try not to let things let me down, so if for example my entire family died, I could eventually move on.


Only because moving on meant that you wished to continue living a eudaemonic life, i.e. a happy and flourishing life. Not moving on would prevent you from living this way.

I value their existence, not just my subjective happiness because of their existence.


This is strangely put. Why do you place a value on their life if not for your own happiness?


(Edited by John Armaos on 7/12, 9:59pm)


Post 6

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 5:45amSanction this postReply
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Welcome to RoR, Raiden!

I basically agree with the other answers to Raiden's question. I do want to offer a contrast object I sometimes see in other forums from so-called "freethinkers" and others of an allegedly "scientific" persuasion. One of Ayn Rand's starkest contrasts against conventional thinking involves advocating individualism over collectivism. I have seen arguments against this from people who have collectivist souls. If you have not read The Fountainhead yet, read it. The prime villain, Ellsworth Toohey, embodies the archetype of "the soul of a collectivist." Various "useful idiots" I have encountered in other forums are kindred spirits to Toohey. They advance the idea that the individual is not an end in himself, but the means to the ends of "the human species" or even "Mother Earth" itself. Rand argued against this view as contrary to human nature and, more broadly, the nature of life. Even using an ant colony as an example of how life is collective and some sacrifice themselves for the group is faulty since humans are not ants.

Communism has long dressed itself in scientific terminology to give itself an unearned respect. The same thing happened in the last days of the Old South in America when intellectuals tried to give slavery a scientific basis. This history explains my profound leeriness of scientists espousing public policies. Witness the current clamoring for fascism based on "global warming" alarms from "scientists" living on government grants to study the "calamity" of climate change.

Well, I hope that gives you more food for thought.

Post 7

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, I think I get what yor saying. You're advocating life as more than mere physiological survival. Ayn Rand said in the Ethics of Selfishness that, unlike other animals, the human life is an integrated whole. Therefore,  if viewing my life as a higher thing than mere biology, it would make sense to die for something, because the act of valueing it more than physiological survival is still a part of life if used in this sense. In that sense it's impossible not to value life as the highest standard. Is this what you mean?

The only problem with this is what is the objective definition of this type of life? The only thing I can think of is some sort of subjective thing. What life is to me might be different than what life is to you. That sounds kinda like existentialism.


Post 8

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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it has to do with the difference between mere physical survival as per an animal life, and flourishing as per a human life........

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Post 9

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Read The Fountainhead and contrast the life of Howard Roark against the "life" of Peter Keating, especially in the middle when Roark "appears" like a failure and Keating a success. These "appearances" only "appear" that way to superficial observers. Their inner lives tell another story.

Objectivism honors the inner life or "mortal soul" as the ultimate value for man qua man.

Post 10

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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"There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action. Matter is indestructible, it changes its forms, but it cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action. If an organism fails in that action, it dies; its chemical elements remain, but its life goes out of existence. It is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil." Ayn Rand, from Galt's Speech in Atlas Shrugged.
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"Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action." (Pulled from the paragraph above.)

Thiat is the most abstract context for viewing life - as a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action, it applies to all men, to you, to me, to all organisms including the most primitive of single-celled organisms. That cannot be the last word or final understanding on "life as the standard of value" that you would use to make choices. How could that understanding alone help you make any choice, other than those that are life or death and not contested by anything else?

When we look to flesh out the principles implied by the act of choosing, we find ourselves in the following general context:
  • Life is common to all organisms and is their most basic of alternatives - to be or not to be, he said.
  • Humans have the capacity to choose... and many actions require choice... and many actions are required (or die).
  • Some things are sufficiently abstract that they apply to all humans
  • Some things are values for one individual but not others, like preferring vanilla ice cream over chocolate.
  • If the most basic of choices - the choice to live - is made (implicitly or explicitly) that puts one into the game. And many choices will be made thereafter that are required to sustain that first choice.
Now lets open things up a little and talk about motivation. The question that has not been asked is, "Why live?" In other words, "What is the purpose of life for a human?" Notice the context I gave the last question. I gave each individual their own purpose when I said "a" human. Yet there is an implication that it might be possible to generalize in a way that includes all humans.

This is the time to point out a complex kind of concept - a bridge between the individual and human nature. We can abstract what things are common to all humans AS HUMANS. Like the capacity to reason. That doesn't mean that a human in a coma will be able to reason, and it doesn't mean that an individual will choose to reason, and it doesn't mean there won't be humans born with defects that prevent the exercise of that capacity. Another example: My individual rights derive from my being human, and that humans, by their nature, have individual rights - they have them as an individual but they come from not from that person's individual nature (born of this particular woman, that man, at this time on that day) but from the nature of man as such. Do you see the bridge between human nature and a specific man's nature? Between mans life as statement about human nature and an individual's life as per his or her nature? Between mans' purpose (human nature) and an individual's purpose?

We can see this bridge in another way. I draw a line along a 'spectrum' where everything on one side is common to all of mankind, and everything on the other side may differ from one individual to another - yet without ever violating the generic items that are common to all. Example: Sustaining, nutrional intake is an objective value for all humans - Chocolate ice cream (in reasonable portions) does not contradict that but it may be preferred by some and not others.

I maintain that the only rationally justifiable generic purpose - that is, for all humans, is the most positive experience of living their life. We are different from a robot not just in having choice, but also in that we have emotions - our acts, our awareness, our thoughts are all accompanied by feelings and emotions and they are the reason to live. Try a thought experiment and imagine you could turn off all feelings and emotions for yourself, forever. That would be good if the only experiences you were going to have in the future fell into the category of pain, sorrow, and hurt. But what you were left with - nothing - would leave you with absolutely no motivation to move forward. (Note: don't mistake this for hedonism which mistakes emotions as tools of cognition and fails to differentiate between the feelings of the moment from long term happiness.)

When we look at the widest context of purpose - the purpose of all humans - we are engaged in philosophical thought. When we walk across the bridge we are looking at psychology and attempting to determine what we want out of our own life. My purpose will always be to maximize my positive experience of life, and I can demonstrate that the best emotional experience are only available to those who are rational and possesed of good self-esteem, but at a point I leave the generizations that apply to all and come to where my unique constellation of virtues and values and current life situation have placed me and my choices will become objective appproaches to material that contains subjective content (chocolate/vanilla).

This has been a very long post, but I don't think that a solid footing for the concept of a "Standard of value" can be had without considering these things. It is the tie between objective values and human flourishing that is the difficult bridge to be built so that an individual can be choosing according to an objective standard of values that belong to him or her along with all of their own preferences.


Post 11

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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Raiden,

... if viewing my life as a higher thing than mere biology, it would make sense to die for something, because the act of valueing it more than physiological survival is still a part of life if used in this sense. In that sense it's impossible not to value life as the highest standard. Is this what you mean?
Well, I would agree with that.


The only problem with this is what is the objective definition of this type of life? The only thing I can think of is some sort of subjective thing. What life is to me might be different than what life is to you. That sounds kinda like existentialism.
That's because what you are describing -- humans without a common human nature -- is existentialism. In existentialism, humans are like amorphous clay which you get to mold in any way you want (by making life choices) and no one can tell anybody what outcome would be good or better or worse for anyone else at any time.

Existentialists aren't against rape and murder, for example, because philosophically, they cannot be against any act. They do not acknowledge that there is a common human nature, and that some things run roughshod against it. According to an existentialist, there is always the possibility that a life of rape and murder will be the most fulfilling of any and all options available to humans.

Back to your question. You asked for an objective definition of "this type of life." Luke gave great advice. If you want to know the definition of this type of life, "Read The Fountainhead and contrast the life of Howard Roark against the "life" of Peter Keating, especially in the middle when Roark "appears" like a failure and Keating a success."

You may not ever get a better definition of "this type of life" than that. It is an ostensive definition where, instead of using propositions (like normal definitions), it merely uses, or points to, an example -- a "Gold Standard" example.

Ed


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Post 12

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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I believe I understand now, but I'll put it in words here just to make sure I'm correct:

A value is something that we attempt to attain. If I value proposition X, then I will attempt to make proposition X true. We humans are extremely complex and strange creatures, so we often simply conjure up values from nothing. These are the subjective values we each have. However, sometimes the subjective values can conflict. Since they're irrational anyway, we should attempt to determine some ultimate value that supercedes all others.

The only truly objective and self-justifying value is life. Life is not just biological survival. If I lay in bed all day and biologically survive, I'm not really living. Life the process of attaining life. Therefore, if I'm not attaining life, I'm not living. That's what makes it self justifying.

Therefore, since small subjective values, like enjoying chocolate ice cream, don't necessarily conflict with the value/goal/process thing that is life, there's nothing wrong with satisfying them.

Furthermore, the smaller subjective values may very well be the reason for living. Life itself is still the higher value, because it is what makes the subjective values possible. It's a sort of symbiotic relationship where life makes small subjective values possible, but they make life worth living. So, seen as a whole, these lesser subjective values are a natural part of life.

The situation can arise when one values something more than biological survival. If that occurs, it is perfectly acceptable to end one's life to advance the attainment of that goal. If that value is lost, there may be psychological deficiencies and problems that make one no longer be capable or wish to live.

So in conclusion, dieing for something almost in a way is living, even if not biologically. Is this correct?


Post 13

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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For me personally:

My own life, which I hope will never end due to technological advances, may very well come to an end. I couldn't imagine I'd choose to fight in a likely-to-be-deadly fight for the defense of my countrymen. But I may very well choose to die in defense of my potential future "wife" and children (wife in quotes indicating non-standard contractual marriage).

Children are a form of replication/redundancy. Beyond working for a better life for myself, I'd also like to improve my future children's lives. In face of my mortality, I live to further the advancement of a number of things beyond myself. The following things are dear to me and I consider my contributions to them as my children:
- Economic system improvement (towards capitalism)
- Improving knowledge of human nutrition, exercise, and intelligence
- Improving technology: particularly computer intelligence/automation

Edit:
Raiden, Welcome to Rebirth of Reason!
My name is Dean. A pleasure to meet you.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 7/13, 8:37pm)


Post 14

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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" 'Value' is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept 'value' is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what?" Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness

I've never been comfortable with the definition of 'value' as that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The problem for me is that many people often act in self-destructive ways. They act to gain and keep things that are not objective values - even when they know better. And there are often times when people act to gain and/or keep things they mistakenly believe are of value.

This tells me that there are objective values - those things that one SHOULD act to gain and/or keep - some that are universal (apply to all humans as humans) and some that unique to a given person in a given context but can still be objectively derived. And there are things that are not only unique to a given person in a given situation and are subjective (personal preference).

Because a specific choice, like chocolate ice cream, is subjective as a concrete, doesn't mean the process followed isn't objective. That is, it is logical that I choose the ice cream flavor that I have the strongest yearning for at the time - it supports my flourishing if I don't overdue, provides pleasure which is value, and in no way runs counter to any more fundamental values or principles.
-----------------------------

Raiden, you wrote, "The only truly objective and self-justifying value is life."

I'd say that there are lots of values that are objective ("Objectivity")

You wrote, "Life is not just biological survival. If I lay in bed all day and biologically survive, I'm not really living. "

Well said!
-------------------------------

You wrote, "Furthermore, the smaller subjective values may very well be the reason for living."

No, I'd say that smaller values are a smaller part of the reason for living. But, yes, they are a natural part of living. On the personal level our purpose for living is 100% subjective in the sense that it is an emotional experience. But we have to use our reason to grasp reality and make logical choices about what will generate the best life possible - that is the way the purpose will be satisfied (to the degree we are right).
--------------------------------

You wrote, "...it is perfectly acceptable to end one's life to advance the attainment of that goal." I wouldn't say that - but rather that we can value something so much that we would take great risks to attain it. And I would say that there are losses to values so great to us that we can lose the will to on living, as you said in next sentence.
---------------------------------

You wrote, "So in conclusion, dieing for something almost in a way is living, even if not biologically. Is this correct?"

That is close, but I'd say that fighting, even under great odds, and facing terrible risks, for that you most value is living. Dying is not the goal, even when that's the result.

It still doesn't answer the remaining question of the rationality of the value in that context, which includes all the other alternatives. Sometimes people end up dying for mistaken values, or die for the right value, but unnecessarily.

Because biological life is the foundation that all values arise from, there are few personal values that end up in situations that make it rational to take risks so high that death is probable.
-------------------------------------

Post 15

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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I understand now! I guess I can consider myself an objectivist now! Thanks for clearing that matter up for me, and thanks for the welcomes. Objectivism is amazing, finally a complete philosophy that actually makes sense! I can't wait to start living by it. I'm definitely going to contribute to this site.


Post 16

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
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Welcome to RoR, Raiden.

On the topic of what exactly life means, I gave a speech some years back on the topic that hit many of the points on this thread.

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Rowlands/The_Meaning_Of_Life.shtml


Post 17

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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Raiden,

Steve mentioned the idea that some values "are universal (apply to all humans as humans)", but he didn't give an example. I have some examples (below) and about them I'd like to ask you:

Would you agree on the value of them for yourself, and would you agree that there is something about humans, per se, that would make these things valuable to everyone, everywhere?

1) knowledge
2) health (mental or physical)
3) beauty
4) friendship
5) self-esteem
6) purpose
7) freedom

Ed


Post 18

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Yes Ed, I do agree that any mentally sound human has these values. Are they derived from the value of life?


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Post 19

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome, Raiden (great name, by the way!)

 "...but it is not the act of valuing things that I value, it is the values themselves.."
 
This kind of valuing is called an "intrinsic value system," or "intrinsicism."    It claims that things are values in and of themselves, but without a valuer to value them.  Value divorced from a valuer.  Doesn't make much sense, does it?  Rand didn't think so, either.

You'll see intrinsicism everywhere in popular culture, and I think its important to identify it when you can.

A powerful set of virtues fill your value toolbox; how we identify, make, and gain a series of values is through virtue. Ed listed some of those virtues. Understanding virtue comes from understanding your nature as a human being.

  Intrinsicism has a way of short circuiting your virtue power-tools so they don't work very well, or not at all. Sometimes this can be very dangerous, like dropping a power drill into the tub.  When something other than life takes on a higher value, then life, including your own life, are subject to sacrifice to that intrinsic value, because your life is subordinate to it, rather than the other way around. 

 Values serve your life in some way. They further your survival and happiness.  Intrinsic values don't. 


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