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Post 40

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Dean:

Sounds interesting, but besides the point. Questions being discussed are How does an individual, and society in general, ensures that one doesnt trample over the rights of other individuals while persuing his goals and on what philosophical model this can be found? It has to be applicable to real world of course.

Ed:

Meaning of my investigation is not prooving my point but finding truth. Whenever I express my personal opinion I am ready to either back it up, or to adapt it using newly received information. You do have to ask though, as I am not going to assume you want to hear my opinions just because I am willing to share them.
Rest as in my answer to Dean.   


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Post 41

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Mike:

How does an individual, and society in general, ensures (sic) that one doesnt (sic) trample over the rights of other individuals while persuing (sic) his goals and on what philosophical model this can be found?

The answer is in property rights and you don't legislate what is a violation of property rights; you prosecute the perpetrator when they have been violated. The law suit isn't initiated by the government, it's initiated by the ostensible victim or victims and tried in a government court. In this way, polluters must be very careful in judging what may be prosecutable.

Sam


Post 42

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Mike,
How does an individual, and society in general, ensures that one doesnt trample over the rights of other individuals while persuing his goals and on what philosophical model this can be found?

Ayn Rand answered this question with her philosophy of Objectivism:
A right cannot be violated except by physical force. One man cannot deprive another of his life, nor enslave him, nor forbid him to pursue his happiness, except by using force against him. Whenever a man is made to act without his own free, personal, individual, voluntary consent—his right has been violated.

Therefore, we can draw a clear-cut division between the rights of one man and those of another. It is an objective division—not subject to differences of opinion, nor to majority decision, nor to the arbitrary decree of society. No man has the right to initiate the use of physical force against another man.

"Textbook of Americanism," The Ayn Rand Column, 85.

You added:
It has to be applicable to real world of course.

I take it you are referring to your "right" to breathe clean air -- i.e., the supposition that polluting industries violate your "right" to a pollution-free environment. The solution is technological, not political -- i.e., it doesn't involve back-tracking on the philosophy of Objectivism or the social system of free market capitalism:
City smog and filthy rivers are not good for men (though they are not the kind of danger that the ecological panic-mongers proclaim them to be). This is a scientific, technological problem—not a political one—and it can be solved only by technology. Even if smog were a risk to human life, we must remember that life in nature, without technology, is wholesale death.

"The Anti-Industrial Revolution,"
Return of the Primitive: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, 282.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/29, 9:53am)


Post 43

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Mike wrote,
Thank you for time and honesty. Everything you said is true and the list is long.
You're welcome, Mike.

I would like to know your opinion in regards to the question I asked Teresa just above.
Right, you asked,
Driving a car which pollutes space is an interesting question. If majority of the herd tries to choke itself to death, how am I to protect my natural right to clean air, a right which I am sure is beyond need of proof, and in what way I can apply philosophy to understand this right in first place?
Good question. You are asking how, under a conception of justice based on individual rights, we would handle air pollution that is demonstrably harmful to human beings. Well, you would have to identify a threshold level below which people's health is not adversely affected, then identify which sources of pollution exceed that level, and prohibit them from being introduced into the air. For the sake of simplicity, let's say that the pollution from automobiles has yet to exceed that level, but that pollution from a new factory has. The new factory is then responsible for reducing its excess pollution. There are various ways to do this, some more economical than others.

Let's say that the pollution from the new factory (Rearden Metal) exceeds the threshold by 10%. Rearden could install a scrubber which would reduce his emissions by that amount, but the scrubber would cost (say) 10 thousand dollars. However, suppose that an already established factory (Midas Gold Foundry) could reduce its own emissions enough to meet the pollution threshold at a cost of only 5 thousand dollars. Rearden could then save money by paying Midas something more than 5 but less than 10 thousand dollars to reduce Midas' emissions to the desired level. It doesn't matter by whom the pollution is reduced, but since Rearden's factory was the first to exceed the threshold, he is responsible for seeing that it is reduced. Let's say that he and Midas settle on a price of 7.5 thousand. In this way, a safe level of pollution could be achieved at a lower cost to Rearden and at a profit to Midas.

In other words, people would be prohibited from introducing any new sources of air pollution that cause the existing level to exceed the threshold. How would this apply to automobiles? Well, new automobiles would require emission controls that meet the standard in the same way that new factories would require them. If some auto manufacturers could meet it more economically than others, they could trade pollution rights in the same way as the two factories in the above example. However, if the air pollution were such that no automobile companies could meet it with gas powered engines, then new non-polluting sources of power (e.g., electric) would have to be implemented before any new cars could be sold.

Fortunately, we're not at that stage yet, and by the time air pollution reaches a threshold level, if it ever does, electric and other forms of power will be as cheap as gas is today.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/29, 11:42am)


Post 44

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,
Driving a car which pollutes space is an interesting question. If majority of the herd tries to choke itself to death, how am I to protect my natural right to clean air, a right which I am sure is beyond need of proof, and in what way I can apply philosophy to understand this right in first place?
While I agree with Bill's answer (and Sam's above that), pollution is kind of a non-issue because of the vast improvements. Bjorn Lomborg wrote a book: "The Skeptical Environmentalist" and in it (p 163-170) is found the evidence that pollution is becoming a non-issue (due to capitalism and technology). I will list excerpts:

In the eighteenth century, the cities were indescribably dirty, Lawrence Stone tells us that:

"the city ditches, now often filled with stagnant water, were commonly used as latrines; butchers killed animals in their shops and threw the offal of the carcasses into the streets; dead animals were left to decay and fester where they lay; latrine pits were dug close to wells, thus contaminating the water supply. Decomposing bodies of the rich in burial vaults beneath the church often stank out parson and congregation ... (1150)


The city was so polluted that the poet Shelley wrote: "Hell must be much like London, a smoky and populous city. (1152)

Much of the pollution was due to cheap coal with a high-sulfur content ...


Even before restoration of St. Paul's Cathedral was complete, the building was beginning to get dirty again. (1155) The heavy smoke caused house paint to lose its luster so fast, many leases stipulated that facades had to be repainted tri-annually. (1156)

" ... when yet to them who are but a Mile out of Town, the Air is sharp, clear, and healthy ... "


The last severe smog of December 1952 still killed about 4,000 Londoners in just seven days. (1162) 


... the [smoke pollution] levels of the 1980s-1990s are below the levels of the late sixteenth century. ... with respect to the worst pollutant the London air has not been as clean as it is today since the Middle Ages. Almost all of the modern period has been more polluted with smoke than it is today. Air pollution is not a new phenomenon that has got worse and worse -- it is an old phenomenon, that has been getting better and better, leaving London cleaner than it has been since medieval times.


Figure 87 shows the overall annual cost per person of pollution from 1977 to 1999 in the US. ... the overall problems are much less serious today than they were just 22 years ago. ... If we go even further back to the 1960s ... an even more dramatic 70 percent drop in air pollution over the past 39 years. (1170)


... for every monitoring station showing a statistically valid upward trend in toxic air pollutants, more than six monitoring stations showed downward trends. (1174)

... since 1957 particulate pollution has fallen by 62 percent in the US ...


During the last smog in London in December 1952 smoke levels above 6,000 [micrograms per cubic meter] were recorded -- more than 300 times the present-day level in London. (1198)


Since 1980, the particulate pollution in Japan has declined 14 percent, in Canada 46 percent and in Germany 48.5 percent. (1202) Athens has witnessed a 43 percent decline since 1985, and Spain a 34 percent decline since 1986. (1203) Paris has experienced a dramatic 66 percent decline since 1970. (1204)


Specialist literature has contained a lot of discussion about the degree to which legislation has been crucial, or at least important, to the reduction of air pollution. Many studies have -- perhaps surprisingly -- not been able to document any noteworthy effect. (1212)

Analysis of the British Clean Air Act of 1956 shows that while pollution has, of course, fallen, the difference between the rate of fall before and after 1956, or the difference between cities that did or did not have pollution plans, is not discernible. "It seems likely that in the absence of the Clean Air Act of 1956 substantial improvements in air quality would have occurred anyway." (1213)

The explanation is to a high degree to be found in improved products and technology for industry and the home.


Recap:
Pollution, because of capitalism and technology, is becoming a non-issue. This gives rise to the intriguing proposition that, to get even cleaner (to get even less pollution), we don't need more laws -- i.e., more fine-tuning and parsing out of individual harms such as the harm you get by jogging next to the freeway during rush hour -- but instead, we need more industry and capitalism.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/29, 6:15pm)


Post 45

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Sam:

Does this mean that we must have legislation that will limit individuals in their activities? If yes, shall it be men ethically trained to judge what sort of laws shall be introduced and when?

Ed:

If you send me a poem you just wrote, and I secretly publish it under my name, no force is involved, but it is still a violation of your right to property.
What I meant by philosophy applicable to real world is that it must show not only how things should be, but also how to get there.
Ayn Rand gave us a great gift, but it doesnt mean it is flawless. One of the things I have not come across while reading her works, is ethical foundation for dealing with limitations that must be imposed on activities of individuals, such as use of natural resources. Have I missed it?

William:

It will be difficult to determine such levels because pollution affects people differently. For instance, someone of good health may take a lot longer to get seriously ill than say a person with weak immune system. In case of air pollution a good example is people who suffer from asthma. It gets more complicated when dealing with large enviromental issues. For example: most carbon we pumping out ends up in the ocean and alters its chemical structure. We dont know for sure, but it may be responsible for dying of coral reef. Coral reef degradation affects communities who depend on this resource and who have every right to call it their property. What about their rights? In Greece, a guy wouldnt sell his land to developesrs who were building a new highway to bypass the village. I dont know why, maybe generations of his family were buried there. So the great trucks and everybody else are driving through the villlage, making noise, traffic jams, people get run over.
What is the solution to such situation?


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Post 46

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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All of you are wasting your time arguing with Mike. I don't see him offer any solutions or acknowledging the many points made.

Post 47

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

welcome back to discussion. "Freedom" is a loose term that humans use to describe anything from divine rights to kitchen sink. In the context of my conversation with William, "freedom" was defined, discussed and agreed upon. I ll be happy to answer more of your questions.


Post 48

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Ed:

If you send me a poem you just wrote, and I secretly publish it under my name, no force is involved, but it is still a violation of your right to property.

Ayn Rand, again, can help here:

A unilateral breach of contract involves an indirect use of physical force: it consists, in essence, of one man receiving the material values, goods or services of another, then refusing to pay for them and thus keeping them by force (by mere physical possession), not by right—i.e., keeping them without the consent of their owner. Fraud involves a similarly indirect use of force: it consists of obtaining material values without their owner’s consent, under false pretenses or false promises.

“The Nature of Government,” The Virtue of Selfishness, 111.
 
Recap:
So fraud is an indirect use of force, because it is a holding of value against an owner's consent. In the case of the pretentiously plagiarized poem, you obtained values based on my poem without the owner's consent. In the real world, I may sue you for plagiarism/copyright infringement.
 
Problem solved.
 
What I meant by philosophy applicable to real world is that it must show not only how things should be, but also how to get there.

See above.

You continue:
One of the things I have not come across while reading her works, is ethical foundation for dealing with limitations that must be imposed on activities of individuals, such as use of natural resources. Have I missed it?

Yes:
Any material element or resource which, in order to become of use or value to men, requires the application of human knowledge and effort, should be private property—by the right of those who apply the knowledge and effort.

“The Property Status of Airwaves,” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 122.
 
Recap:
So, to own a natural resource, you need to mix 2 of your own personal resources -- knowledge and effort -- with that natural resource. In homesteading, Locke said you need to mix manual labor with a natural resource, in order to own it. Rand went a step further and said that it's not just a hands-on thing, but it is also a "minds-on" thing as well -- i.e., you have to think in order to own.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/30, 8:02am)


Post 49

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Thanks for information. I assume the data is true and make following observations.
1. The extracts from this one book do not show that industries have been largely moved to outer city limits, or in case of some heavy industries to specifically designated areas alltogether, away from human dwellings, and convinient for dumping of waste.
2. Examples show industrialised countries that happend to be most ENVIROMENTALLY regulated countries. In the case of the Third world this is not the case at all. Here, a large scale looting and plunder is happening as we speak, while officially managed by the governement, in fact serving few PRIVATE interets. People are being displaced from their private properties, often by force and without any compensation. Resisiting this PRIVATE plunder is extremely dangerous and because of that few people get involved.
Athens is bad example, try down town Athens at noon and see for youself.   
3. Todays London lives off resources gathered from around the globe. meaning we cant look at London and say "Hey look at this, 500 years ago everyone lived in shit, and look how clean and green and developed it is". Today we drive japaneese made cars, eat bananas from Honduras, and drink coffee from Kenya, manufacturing and delivering this goods is often far from clean and green. London has been dumping so much shit in the Atlantic that fish was genetically changing years ago.
4. Some island communities in the Pacific stop welcoming visitors because of environmental strains on their habitat. Kudos to them for keeping their heads glued on.  
5. "Pollution, because of capitalism and technology, is becoming a non-issue". On the bases of above said, I find it a rushed statement. More tahn this I find a concept of unregulated private entreprise JUST ON THE BASES OF THE SO FAR DISCUSSED a dangerous proposition in todays world. Why? Because we dont live in Atlantis where everyone is fair and square. For as long as there are people with no conscience or moral code we must take this into consideration. 


Post 50

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Because of delays in postings, discussion split in two different subjects, although with same fundamental base. I will look into "Property status of airways" before discussing "un-material" property rights further. Looking forward to your thoughts on Post 49.


General note, Steve please read this:

I will comment only on information which is either contradictory or new to me; or if I see it as benefiting to someone else. 


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Post 51

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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Regulations did and do exist, and they will exist for as long as interests of individuals overlap, and come to confrontation.

Those aren't conditions for "regulations" in the sense that they arbitrarily interfere with trade. Those are conditions for property law.  Your kids can't build a tree fort in my yard without my permission, for example. A "regulation" in trade means I can't buy the lumber or work on the project without getting some kind of permission slip from some authority higher than my own mind and good sense. Mixing premises is a very dishonest way to carry on a discussion Mike. I would caution you to avoid equivocation.  

If majority of the herd tries to choke itself to death, how am I to protect my natural right to clean air, a right which I am sure is beyond need of proof, and in what way I can apply philosophy to understand this right in first place?   

You could start by not making shit up about the quality of  "your" air. Then maybe you could design a stylish vinyl bubble with a perfectly mixed air tank strapped on to walk around in. You might sell a million of the things.  


(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 3/30, 3:47pm)


Post 52

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

1. The extracts from this one book do not show that industries have been largely moved to outer city limits, or in case of some heavy industries to specifically designated areas alltogether, away from human dwellings, and convinient for dumping of waste.

2. Examples show industrialised countries that happend to be most ENVIROMENTALLY regulated countries. In the case of the Third world this is not the case at all. ...

But the question of environmental regulation was addressed at the end of the excerpts:

Specialist literature has contained a lot of discussion about the degree to which legislation has been crucial, or at least important, to the reduction of air pollution. Many studies have -- perhaps surprisingly -- not been able to document any noteworthy effect. (1212)

Analysis of the British Clean Air Act of 1956 shows that while pollution has, of course, fallen, the difference between the rate of fall before and after 1956, or the difference between cities that did or did not have pollution plans, is not discernible. "It seems likely that in the absence of the Clean Air Act of 1956 substantial improvements in air quality would have occurred anyway." (1213)

The explanation is to a high degree to be found in improved products and technology for industry and the home.

So it is just a coincidence that these countries also have the most environmental regulations. What it is that explains the difference better -- between 1st-world and 3rd-world countries -- is accrued wealth. China had to spend months cleaning the air before the Olympics was held there, because they are relatively poor and wealth is the best pollution-fighter. Relatively poor nations are forced to use poor technology and dirty energy extraction processes -- because that is all that they can afford.

Athens is bad example, try down town Athens at noon and see for yourself. 

I know. I was there back in 1997, backpacking all around the world. Athens was a dump. Greece was just downgraded again economically, and may require a second "bail-out." The problem in Greece is the problem everywhere -- a relative deficiency of capitalism. The Greek government officials were living like kings and redistributing wealth to themselves and their employees -- and that is not capitalism. The end result when you don't have enough capitalism?:

Pollution and poverty.

3. Todays London lives off resources gathered from around the globe. meaning we cant look at London and say "Hey look at this, 500 years ago everyone lived in shit, and look how clean and green and developed it is". 

It is noteworthy though, that London is cleaner now than even in 1600 (a pre-industrial age). If you took this time-period before lots of industry, and use it as a baseline or "natural" background, it is noteworthy that industrial man has made part of the earth (London) cleaner than it "naturally" was. Man is part of nature (rather than being an extra-terrestrial intruder/invader), so you have got to use times like 1600 (before man developed a lot of industry) in order to get a baseline or "natural" background.

The notion of imagining nature without man -- without any economic footprint -- is a fallacy, because it doesn't include all of nature (some of which is "man"). So it is logically proper to use a year like 1600 in order to check to see if man is making the earth cleaner and greener or not (and to what extent).

Also, there is so much more in the book talking about how just about every problem that environmentalists can think of has improved so much, and in many cases dramatically. And it is the most scientifically-referenced book I have ever seen (thousands of references!). The benefits track best with economic growth (capitalism) showing that economic growth "cleans" the environment -- whenever and where ever it is allowed to occur.

Today we drive Japanese made cars, eat bananas from Honduras, and drink coffee from Kenya, manufacturing and delivering this goods is often far from clean and green.
And as I alluded to above, to the extent these places are allowed to have economic growth (the extent of economic freedom and rule of law), all these places get better.

4. Some island communities in the Pacific stop welcoming visitors because of environmental strains on their habitat. Kudos to them for keeping their heads glued on.  


That's "Balkinization." It's a primitive collectivism: a tribalism. It isn't necessarily good for man or for the earth.


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/30, 4:06pm)


Post 53

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote recently here why I don't think the hysterical claims made by environmentalists deserve much credibility given their horrific track record. All this talk from MIke about the harm created by industrialists seems to gloss over the reality all the people harmed by industrialization would probably have not even existed were it not for industrialization.

When that next asteroid hits Earth causing a mass extinction event, it's not going to give a shit what our carbon footprint is. In fact, the only thing that could help mitigate or eliminate such an existential threat to our existence is massive industrialization.


Post 54

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa:

People who forbid you to build something in your backyard I call "small but very harmful bunch of people". I wish we could somehow get rid of them.
I am not seeing how any premises were challenged. You said something like "Trade got us here, regulations didnt", which obviously contradiction as we got here the way we did, with regulations. We could have got here quicker and sooner without them, but its beside the point.

Ed:

here is something for you. Its a couple of hundred years later than 1600, so London was even cleaner then.
"The women are handsome ... and have sufficient delicacy to make them admired and beloved - The chiefs have taken such a liking to our people that they have rather encouraged their stay among them than otherwise, and even made promises of large possessions. Under these and many other attendant circumstances equally desirable it is therefore now not to be wondered at ... that a set of sailors led by officers and void of connections ... should be governed by such powerful inducement ... to fix themselves in the midst of plenty in the finest island in the world where they need not labour, and where the alurements of disipation are more than equal to anything that can be conceived."
A Narrative of the Mutiny, etc., by Lieut. W. Bligh, 1790, p. 9

John:

Time to build a rocket?

I am off for a couple of months, sailing Atlantic, no internet there.


Post 55

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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...we got here the way we did, with regulations.
In spite of, I might add.


Post 56

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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I am off for a couple of months, sailing Atlantic, no internet there
 
Been there, done that.
 
Sam


Post 57

Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Sounds like a good idea, Sam...........
[for him anyway... ;-)]
(Edited by robert malcom on 3/31, 6:59am)


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