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Post 20

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Delong,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll try to give you some solid responses on a point by point basis (which will take a day or so), and I'm sure others will have good points to post as well.

In the mean time, I'll throw this out- just for fun:
====================

Subject: Global Warming

The Washington Post

The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway. Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.
====================
Oops. Never mind. This report was from November 2, 1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - 88 years ago!

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Post 21

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

Well for one thing glaciers are melting rapidly each year and the global temperature is rising.



But, taking your last point first, when you look at world temperature estimates from the last 1500 years -- we can't even be sure that we're even as little as 0.1 degrees Celsius warmer than we were just over 1000 years ago. To be sober, 0.1 degrees Celsius is a small number. Not that much death and destruction comes from that small of a number. Instead, what you have got to believe is not that we're a lot warmer now (because we simply are not a lot warmer), but that in another 50-100 years or so -- we are going to warm the planet another 2.0-5.0 degrees Celsius or so.

In short, you have to believe the theories of environmentalists -- because the facts, on their own, simply do not speak for themselves.

Taking your first point, glaciers come and go, but most of the ice on earth is in the Antarctic. Instead of watching isolated glaciers then, a more proper and scientific way to go about examining the hypothesis that the earth is melting is to discover the total extent of the cryosphere (total ice cover).

A crazy thing happens when you discover what has happened to total ice cover over the last 30 years -- it hasn't decreased at all! We have no less ice cover than we did 30 years ago. A tricky thing -- when trying to understand ice data -- is to continually remember and integrate the fact that most earth ice is in the Antarctic. That being true, proportionate total ice cover changes in the Antarctic are more important than proportionate changes elsewhere -- in that they track the truth of total ice cover better. An analogy would be gambling at a casino.

Let's say that you take most of your money and you play Blackjack with it using the Vospanos method (where you have a slight advantage against "the house"). And let's say you continually win with that money. Let's say you also take a much smaller proportion of your money and you blow it on Roulette (worst odds in casino). Now, at the end of the day, can you seriously complain that gambling is bankrupting you?

No. You lost some money on some bad bets, but most of your money is intact and, in fact, your total bankroll is growing.

Just like in this analogy, most of earth's ice is in the Antarctic, and the cryosphere (total ice cover) there is growing. Small proportionate changes in the Antarctic offset larger proportionate changes elsewhere. In order to get less total ice than before, all of the melting we've been recording would have to have been much more than we've been recording!

In short, the earth -- according to the recorded facts -- is not melting.

Advice:
Try to be wary of websites, or other data sources, which refrain from tracking or depicting total changes in variables for at least 1000 years time. Websites which only show change for several decades are, most often, disreputable. The reason to limit time frames to short time frames is to fraudulently exploit a portion of upwards or downwards variation as if it were a long-term trend. Steve mentioned an old news article guilty of that. Be wary about that kind of thing.


Ed

Reference:
1500-year global temperature estimate (see 5th graph of 9 total graphs)

Arctic and Antarctic Standardized Anomolies and Trends (see graph of this name)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/04, 1:32pm)


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Post 22

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

I'll start with the last point. It is important to find a common ground for determining what is or is not of value - that is to have a standard we can refer to for making measurements of values.

I wrote, "8. You state that nature must be respected for itself. But there must be a standard for values, and that standard is man's life. I believe you can not make a moral case for your position that strays from that standard yet stays logical. Respected by whom, and using what standard? Without standards like I'm discussing how will you be able to determine what to do in a situation where you face a conflict between say the delta smelt and significant loss of human employment?"

You replied, saying, "...I don't see any contradiction in holding the position that we must always attend to our own interests but also that nature has intrinsic value. For example, I believe there is no contradiction in my attending always to my own interests but also valuing my close friends for themselves. In short, I am firmly an environmentalist in the sense that I value nature for itself."

There is no contradiction in attending to your own interests but also valuing your close friends. But the reason that is so is that you value your friends - they are of value to you. The closer the friend, the greater the value. I would argue that if a friend turned on you, behaved badly, and you were forced to conclude that they would never again behave as a friend, and would even act against your interests and that this could not be changed, that you would cease to value that person. The point here is that valuing is done in your mind, and it is about the relationship between you and object being valued. This is important because it means that 'value' never resides totally in an object (or friend) - a value, by its nature, cannot be intrinsic.

There is no value that is intrinsic in nature or in the environment - because of the nature of 'value.'

The next issue regarding 'value' is universal versus subjective or relative. We know that there are things we would call preferences - like how much sugar I prefer (value) in my coffee. Some things we use the word value for are subjective or relative to a culture or group. But Objectivists also maintain that there are values that are universal to all humans - by their nature.

We should all value that which is required for survival as a human being, air to breath for example. I value knowledge for what it gives us towards survival and towards a better life, and I have, as a lifestyle, formed a personal, emotional attachment to knowledge which enhances its value for me. The value is in the relationship between me and what can be known, not intrinsic in an object somewhere.

Two other aspects of the concept of value should be addressed: Universal, objectively derived values are hierarchical in nature. That is they can be prioritized. And there is a primary value that is the most fundamental and which becomes the standard of all values. Without this, how would we weigh one value over another?

Objectivists hold that there is no rational standard of value other than man's life. That it is the primary value from which all others derive.

I know this seems very abstract and long removed from a deep felt concern over environmental damages, and I wish I knew a good way to get to your issue faster, but I don't. This is a needed foundation, I believe, to think clearly down the road in that complex area where epistemology, the philosophy of science, ecology, economics, political philosophy, ethics and technology all overlap.
-----------------

Here are some excellent short and to the point sources for the Objectivist thoughts on 'value':


Joe Rowlands (who owns this web site) put together a wonderful set of short essays each of which explains a key concept of Objectivism. They are organized by category (Metaphysics, epistemology, etc.) and under ethics there are several very worth reading on values.

And there is an on-line Lexicon taken from Ayn Rand's writings. This link is to the concept of value.


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Post 23

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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hmmm... Here's something that I agree with:
"In short, you have to believe the theories of environmentalists -- because the facts, on their own, simply do not speak for themselves"
Now I was unaware that total ice cover is actually increasing. I suppose I have to review the facts more rigorously for myself. Admittingly I haven't reviewed a lot of the science behind global warming. I was more just relying on the theory: more greenhouse gases means more green house effect. Now of course I know that I can't really talk about any of this stuff without paying close attention to the facts which I plan to do since I am a science major and all.
But let's say that perhaps climate change predictions have been popularly exaggerated. Doesn't the idea of a greenhouse effect accelerated by our activities still remain true? What part of the greenhouse effect is wrong?

To Steve Wolfer: well as far as I understand your philosophical framework I find myself at least not disagreeing with it. I understand that all valued things must be beneficial in some way otherwise they are improperly valued. But um.. well I will wait for whatever you say next.


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Post 24

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding "intrisic value":
..
"The alternative to subjective is objective. Since subjective values come from the subject, then it is sometimes thought that objective values must come from the object. This is what Objectivists call intrinsic values, though. It means that the value is supposed to reside inside the object itself. Water is of value, right? If we dismiss subjective values, then one possibility is that the value isn't just our own opinion, but it actually is an aspect of the object. So water must have some 'value' characteristic that we can somehow observe. This is considered objective because the 'value' is out there, where anyone can see it. Except of course nobody explains how exactly we observe this 'value' characteristic.

"As I said, that was intrinsic values. The object is intrinsically valuable, and we just have to observe the fact. The intrinsic theory escapes the subjectivism, but it has the side-effect of being entirely wrong. Also, while it explains why people may act to gain and/or keep an object (it doesn't really explain it...just states it), it doesn't quite explain other values, like happiness, self-esteem, sense of achievement, etc. If physical objects are valuable because some magical value stuff emanates from them, what about non-physical values?

"The alternative to these is what Objectivists call The Objective Theory of Value. Instead of postulating that a value resides in objects, or is just a figment of our imagination, it holds that there is a relationship between the value and the valuer. This theory can also be called the relational theory of value. It says that something is of value to a specific person, for a specific reason. You value water because you need it to survive. You value chocolate because it tastes good. You value Objectivism because it provides you with a framework for understanding your own life better."


Joe Rowlands - Objective, Subjective, Intrinsic

(Thought I'd throw that in. :)

 


Post 25

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

I was more just relying on the theory: more greenhouse gases means more green house effect. ... Doesn't the idea of a greenhouse effect accelerated by our activities still remain true? What part of the greenhouse effect is wrong?




A greenhouse effect can be measured directly, but climate scientists rarely, if ever, talk about that -- and I've never heard an environomentalist talk about the direct measure of the greenhouse effect. What a profound omission.

I think it's a red flag. All of the news, left and right, , front and center, about greenhouse effects -- and we never hear about actually measuring it. A greenhouse effect is a reflection of sun radiation (originally reflected from the surface of earth) back at the earth after interaction with a 'greenhouse ceiling' which resides at approximately 8-10 km above the surface of the earth. What you would have then (with a greenhouse effect), is a warming on the surface of the earth which coincides with an even higher amount of warming at an altitude of 8-10 km (a 30-60% higher temperature increase at altitude than you find on the surface of the earth).

Data which would hypothetically "work" in order to prove that a greenhouse effect is "in effect" on earth would be something like this:

A surface temperature increase of 1 degree C in the last hundred years coinciding with an 8-km (tropospheric) temperature increase of at least 1.3 degrees C in the last hundred years. Or ...

A surface temperature increase of 2 degrees C in the last hundred years coinciding with a tropospheric temperature increase of at least 2.6 degrees C. Or ...

A surface temperature increase of 3 degrees C in the last hundred years coinciding with a tropospheric temperature increase of at least 3.9 degrees C.

But what we find when we look directly for the "greenhouse effect" -- an effect that, but its very nature, warms the troposphere more than the surface -- what we find is that tropospheric warming isn't occurring at levels predicted by the theory (30-60% higher than surface warming). In fact, tropospheric warming is lagging so far behind surface warming that it is a physical impossibility for the vast majority of the noted warming to be explained by a "greenhouse effect."

If a greenhouse effect was behind a vast majority of the noted temperature change, then the tropospheric temperature change would be 30-60% more than that on the surface -- certainly not less than surface warming has been; which is what we actually discover when we investigate it (a tropospheric warming trend that is less than our surface warming trend).

Ed


Further reading:
Fu et al. Contribution of stratospheric cooling to satellite-inferred tropospheric temperature trends. Nature. 2004 May 6;429(6987):55-8.

Santer et al. Interpreting differential temperature trends at the surface and in the lower troposphere. Science. 2000 Feb 18;287(5456):1227-32

Tett & Thorne. Atmospheric science: tropospheric temperature series from satellites. Nature. 2004 Dec 2;432(7017):1 p following 572; discussion following 572.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/04, 9:50pm)


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Post 26

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Earth's greenhouse effect information. Conclusion: water vapor created by the sun is the largest contributor of greenhouse gases. CO2 is not a big deal and its silly that people worry about it.

More greenhouse is better to reduce earth's more common ice ages which are 11 deg F to 15 deg F colder than now. Read wikipedia about the causes of ice ages. Dust and ash from meteors can block the sun's energy. Continents blocking water flow from equator to poles causes the poles to freeze over and ice reflects the sun's energy.

See a chart that shows a bigger picture of the earths temperature.

I'd rather have deer than polar bears and penguins. I'd rather have crops than fields of ice. But in all likely hood, in the future its going to be colder not hotter, and not due to man's interference, but due to continental positions and meteors. Hopefully by that point we will have the technology to deflect meteors and terraform the earth to the climate we want.

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Post 27

Tuesday, January 4, 2011 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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The following is an excerpt from a lecture by Dr. Keith Lockitch presented at U.C. Berkeley on September 25, 2008. Dr. Lockitch holds a PhD in theoretical physics from the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and has conducted postdoctoral research in relativistic astrophysics at the University of Illinois and at Pennsylvania State University. I thought the excerpt worth posting, because it presents information rarely heard or considered in the global-warming debates:

"World energy consumption today is massively dominated by carbon-based fuels. More than 86% of the world’s energy comes from burning oil, coal and natural gas. And releasing carbon dioxide is not incidental to the production of fossil fuel energy. The energy comes from mechanical reactions of oxygen combining with hydrocarbons to form CO2 and water. So, in a sense, more than 86% of the world’s energy comes from the process of creating carbon dioxide. So, there’s a fundamental clash between our use of energy and all the life-and-death benefits that it provides us and this goal of restricting carbon emissions. Now, what the proponents of these policies tell us is that we just have to find new ways or producing energy that don’t emit carbon dioxide. So what new ways do they have in mind?

"Well, if 86% of our energy comes from fossil fuels, what about the rest? Data on world energy consumption can be found from the Energy Information Administration (EIA). That 86% figure comes from the EIA’s assessment of energy production in 2005. The actual number they give is 86.3%. Now according to the same assessments, 6.3% of the world’s energy in 2005 was produced by hydroelectric generation and another 6% by nuclear. Now hydro and nuclear do not produce significant amounts of carbon dioxide, but these are not the energy sources that most carbon reduction advocates have in mind.

"Both of these are vehemently and relentlessly opposed by environmentalists: hydro, because they oppose the fact that it involves enormous reshaping of water ways (the damns and the lakes they create, you know, massively alter nature); nuclear, primarily because of baseless fears about safety and nuclear waste and so on. Greenpeace, for example, calls nuclear energy a false solution to global warming.

"Okay, if you add up the numbers we have so far, 86.3, 6.3 and 6, we find that about 98.6% of the world’s energy comes from sources that environmentalists oppose and that are not regarded as acceptable sources of energy. Now, we’re constantly told that there’s this green energy revolution just around the corner. So where is this green energy revolution supposed to come from? Well, apparently, it’s going to be conjured up magically out of the remaining 1.4% of renewable energy sources – solar, wind, biofuels and so on. Now, the fact is, there’s a reason those renewable sources made up just 1.4% of energy production in 2005, and the reason is that they are not practical sources of energy. Despite decades of research and billions of dollars in government subsidies, these forms of energy are nowhere close to being realistic alternatives.

"For one thing, the energy carried by sunlight and wind is not concentrated enough. It’s too diffuse and spread out. And to see that, just consider some basic numbers here. So, for example, a typical modern wind turbine generates about 1 megawatt of electricity. Now compare that to a typical coal-fired power plant, which generates about 1,000 megawatts of electricity. So to produce the same amount of power as one coal-fired plant, it would take about 1,000 wind turbines. And the land area that 1,000 turbines occupies is about 40,000 acres. So, to collect and concentrate the same amount of energy produced by just one coal-fired power plant, you would have to take 1,000 windmills and spread them out over 40,000 acres. And solar energy has the same problem. Basically, the aerial power density is just too low.

"Now more than 50% of the electricity produced in the U.S. is generated by coal. There are approximately 600 coal-fired power plants in the U.S. So, say you wanted to replace all of these coal-powered plants with wind farms. Well, you’d need roughly 600,000 turbines, and this would occupy a land area larger than the state of Arizona – the sixth largest state in the Union.
Now I think it’s also worth mentioning that currently there’s less than 20,000 megawatts of wind generated capacity currently installed in the U.S. So, all the wind turbines built and installed today with all the subsidies and incentives thrown at the industry is less than 20,000 megawatts. And the largest number of turbines ever installed in one year in the U.S. was just over 3,000. And remember, we’re comparing it to 600,000 turbines.

"Now, the other problem with these forms of energy is that they’re intermittent sources of energy, which means they don’t provide the stable power that our electric infrastructure needs. You know, solar and wind are great until the sun sets or the clouds roll in or the wind dies. And this is not a trivial problem. Germany gets about 7% of its electricity from wind power, and in Christmas 2006, the wind in the North Sea died down completely and the sudden drop in power nearly brought down the entire electric grid for the whole country. It almost blacked out the entire country. So, the notion that we’re somehow going to completely transform our entire global energy infrastructure to be based entirely on diffuse, unstable impractical sources of energy is simply nonsense. This is not a serious proposition. The reality is that what a drastic reduction in our carbon emissions actually means necessarily is a drastic reduction in our use of energy, and a drastic reduction in our use of energy necessarily means a major blow to industrial civilization and to all of our lives.

"Now, to get an idea of what this might be like – what this would mean – let me give you a few more facts and figures. It turns out that you can actually identify a fairly close relationship between economic growth and carbon dioxide emissions. Europe has been keeping emissions data for two decades now following the Kyoto Protocol, and what it suggests is that there is a direct relationship between carbon emissions and economic progress. Between 1990 and 2005, European countries such as Spain, Greece, Ireland and Portugal enjoyed strong economic growth. So, these were sort of less developed countries that spent the ‘90s catching up to their more developed neighbors. Spain, for example, experienced a growth in GDP of more than 50% over that period. And over the same period, the growth in carbon dioxide emissions was around 53% in these countries.

"Now other countries in Europe, such as France and England did not grow nearly as rapidly. These are already highly developed nations, and over this time, their economies grew at a much smaller, sort of normal rate. And over that time frame – from 1990 to 2005 – their carbon emissions grew by around 4%.

"Now, I’m not saying that this is a completely rigorous, tight statistical correlation, but there’s clearly an important connection between economic growth and carbon emissions. And the causal connection between CO2 and GDP is a lot clearer than the supposed connection that exists in the atmosphere between, you know, temperature anomalies and marginal changes in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. I mean, there’s no question that the production of CO2 that releases the energy that’s used to create wealth and expand economic activity is related to economic growth in this way. So rapid economic growth is closely tied to rapid growth in carbon emissions, and moderate economic growth is closely tied to moderate growth in carbon emissions.

"And you see it going the other way as well. From 1991 to 1993, Europe was hit hard by a recession. There was a big economic downturn, and the carbon dioxide data shows that during this two-year period, the carbon emissions dropped by 4%. Now a 4% decline in the economy is bad enough, but think about the fact that when America went through the Great Depression, it experienced a 30% drop in GDP between 1929 and 1933. And this is often referred to as the worst economic disaster of the 20th Century, which was a period of widespread misery and suffering.

"Now consider the fact that we’re contemplating policies aimed at reducing carbon emissions, not by 30% but by 80 to 90%. A corresponding drop in GDP on that scale would be absolutely catastrophic. I mean, it would make the Great Depression look like some kind of party. It’s hard to imagine the utter devastation that this would inflict on people’s lives."


Post 28

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 12:26amSanction this postReply
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One point on fossil fuels: They are "fossil fuels". They are energy collected from the sun over billions of years of life on earth, all compacted into tiny high energy density hydrocarbons. There is no way that some wind generators or solar panels, which gather power from the current day's sunlight... can compare to the power available in billions of years of energy stored in hydrocarbons.

AFAIK, solar panels are still a joke. Over their lifetime they do not generate enough energy to pay for their purchase cost. Which means that it uses more energy to make them than the energy they generate. Hence only a few fools buy them and put them on their roofs. Otherwise they are only used in some applications where its not practical to wire something to the electrical grid or run off of batteries/fuel.

... And the same thing with the wind generators. Otherwise, why don't people buy them and put them on their property? They cost more than they generate.

Post 29

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Well all these replies make some sense. The science behind climate change is complex and perhaps the popular hype behind global warming has been exaggerated. Still I don't see anyone answering the question I posed earlier more clearly. Our world is producing carbon dioxide at an alarming rate. All that carbon dioxide has to go somewhere and be doing something. If not greenhouse effect then what and how does that affect us? Everything has consequences, releasing all that gas must have some effect and greenhouse effect seems to be the most supported answer right now.

Perhaps other sources of energy right now may pale in comparison to fossil fuels but our supply of fossil fuels are nonetheless limited. I noted that someone wrote

Post 30

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Delong,

Still I don't see anyone answering the question I posed earlier more clearly. Our world is producing carbon dioxide at an alarming rate. All that carbon dioxide has to go somewhere and be doing something. If not greenhouse effect then what and how does that affect us?

For one thing, releasing a whole lot of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere makes for a greener planet.

The reason that this is true is that plants "breathe" carbon dioxide. So, what we are doing when we massively produce carbon dioxide and spew it all over into the atmosphere, is that we set up conditions for awesome plant growth on planet earth. The extra plant growth, in turn, will start to reverse the increased concentration of carbon dioxide (replacing it with oxygen), so it is not like we will be overcome with neverending plant growth coming through walls and whatnot. The earth will just be a little bit greener, that's all.

Everything has consequences, releasing all that gas must have some effect and greenhouse effect seems to be the most supported answer right now.

It is possible that the greenhouse effect is happening but -- as I demonstrated in post 25 -- it is not physically possible that the greenhouse effect is responsible for most of the noted warming on earth over the relevant time frame (the time frame which involves the current up-tick in carbon dioxide emissions). Ask a climate scientist if the greenhouse effect is responsible for most of the warming detecting during increased carbon dioxide emissions -- and they will almost unanimously say: "Yes." But that doesn't make it true.

When most experts said that the world was flat, that didn't make the world actually flat (because truth doesn't come from popularity -- even a popularity in the minds of experts). These flat-earth experts ignored data which contradicted their theory --some early Greeks, ~2000 years ago, even knew that earth was round!. In the same way, current climate scientists roundly ignore satellite temperature data which contradicts the view that the greenhouse effect is behind most of our current warming.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/05, 12:47pm)


Post 31

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

You say you are a scientist. I invite you to mentally consider two scientific studies in unison. One (1) which says that it was not physically possible for half (50%) or more of the warming of the earth at 55 million years ago, to be from climate forcing due to increased carbon dioxide concentrations -- and one (2) which says that it is not likely that the sun was any less than half-responsible (actually, any less than 49% responsible) for all of the global warming noted since 1900:

(1) Carbon dioxide forcing alone insufficient to explain Palaeocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum Warming

Concurrently, global surface temperatures rose by 5–9 °C within a few thousand years. ...

As a result, atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations increased during the main event by less than about 70% compared with pre-event levels. At accepted values for the climate sensitivity to a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration1, this rise in CO2 can explain only between 1 and 3.5 °C of the warming inferred from proxy records.

(2) Phenomenological reconstructions of the solar signature in the Northern Hemisphere surface temperature records since 1600

We argue that a realistic climate scenario is the one described by a large preindustrial secular variability (as the one shown by the paleoclimate temperature reconstruction by Moberg et al. (2005)) with the total solar irradiance experiencing low secular variability (as the one shown by Wang et al. (2005)).

Under this scenario the Sun might have contributed up to approximately 50% (or more if ACRIM total solar irradiance satellite composite (Willson and Mordvinov, 2003) is implemented) of the observed global warming since 1900.


Recap:
One study says that half or more of ancient global warming was due to something other than carbon dioxide, another says that half or more of recent global warming is due to changes in the sun. Do you see the coincidence? You know, if the sun is responsible for most all of the global warming of planet earth, then that would consolidate these two findings and make all the data explainable. If folks continue to believe that the sun plays only a minor role in global warming, then these data stick out as contradictions.


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/05, 12:50pm)


Post 32

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry I got cut off earlier. What I was going to say was that someone noted earlier that just because we have a finite amount of fossil fuels doesn't mean that it is scarce but I would have to disagree. One of the first things we learned in economics class is that any resource that is finite is scarce, it will eventually run out. Now, many of you may be right in saying that fossil fuels are the best source for energy right now and that we have tons of them available, literally tons. Even still, climate consequences aside, the fact remains that we will eventually run out before we can restore the reserves.

Perhaps we should be comfortable with oil now, we "need" oil now, but what about in the long run? Wouldn't alternative energies research be a good thing to pursue anyway?

Also in response to Ed Thompson, yes I agree that just because a theory is supported doesn't mean it is true. I guess I was meaning that the theory of the greenhouse effect is most supported by evidence but that perhaps may be inconsequential to global warming as you were noting with your evidence.

You also said that releasing carbon into the atmosphere will make the world greener because plants can synthesize more glucose. I agree that this is true, but I wonder if our that effect is counteracted by all rapid rate of deforestation. I don't know I would have to survey the evidence more clearly.

So bottom line it seems like to me what you guys are saying that forecasts of global warming and catastrophic environmental changes are all greatly exaggerated and not supported by evidence and should not impede technological advancement.

Post 33

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

Its not like we are just going to one day run out of oil. There are different forms and purities of hydrocarbons. Some are more difficult to harvest and process than others. As the easy stuff runs out, it will become more expensive, making the harder to use stuff economically viable. And so on... a very slow process until finally its no longer economically viable to use the remaining poor purity hydrocarbons. No longer economically viable-- because other technologies will be cheaper, such as:

- Nuclear fission powered electrical grid. High energy density batteries.
- Nuclear fission powered hydrocarbon production plants -- that's right, a nuclear powered process that converts raw materials like CO2 and H2 to hydrocarbons and oxygen. Why would we do this? Lets say if battery technology never approaches the energy density of hydrocarbons, there would still be use for hydrocarbons in transportation and other mobile non tethered applications.
- Nuclear fusion. Not that there is really anything wrong with nuclear fission.

I'm not aware of any other practical sort of reaction that results in increased thermal energy. There's just nuclear and oxygen reacting with stuff.

Oh, I guess we could launch solar energy collection plates close to the sun, and then beam the energy to earth. We could move the earth closer to the sun. We could colonize space and move closer to the sun.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 1/05, 3:59pm)


Post 34

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Hmm ok. Thanks everyone for speak with me. Before I go on I should take a step back and look at the reason why I am still talking and find if there is any clear purpose to my questioning. The issues concerning environmentalist ethics, technological advancement, climate change, capitalism, and alternative energies are complex. To produce meaningful dialog I should restrict the topic of discussion to something specific and pertinent. Basically, I started with my first post because I am passionate about environmental health and the conservation of biological values such as biodiversity. From what I read from online sources objectivists did not seem to me to take seriously the preservation of environmental health and biological values. So I felt like I should put in my say.

Now I may admit that the issue of global warming and other environmental dangers may be exaggerated and should not impede technological progress in any way. Of course technology has done a lot of good things for humanity and should be continued no doubt. Ultimately though I believe certain biological values, such as the ecosystem and biodiversity, are indeed tremendously valuable and should be given a lot of attention for preservation efforts. Of course, if I were pressed, I would definitely not say that we should sacrifice our quality of life blindly for the preservation of these biological values. At a certain level I would find that hypocritical since the point of the endeavor was to preserve the quality of all life in the first place. Certain changes may have to be made but that admittingly that shouldn't be the point. What should be emphasized is that these changes will promote environmental health and biodiversity which will benefit us all.

As I think more on this issue I discover that a mature environmentalist ethic does not contradict with objectivist philosophy at all but is simply an extension of it to ecological values. I used to approach environmentalism through a much more immature way and I despised all human activities as evil and selfish and corruptive. As I was exposed to objectivism I came to revise a lot of this thinking and approach environmentalism in a more mature way. I think ultimately the step I need to take is to destroy some competing agendas in my mind and pursue objectivism and environmentalism in a non-contradictory manner. You don't have to dispute with me on any previous point anymore since at the heart I don't think we disagree. Thanks.


Post 35

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ultimately I believe the objectivist values of productive achievement, rationality, rational self interest and self esteem are good sound values and should not be derailed against. I don't think objectivists or people on the whole are irrational so I don't worry too much about environmental degradation. I am pretty sure that all engineers and businesses will recognize environmental dangers/values when they see it and will reorient their work accordingly. I was attacking the ideological stances but I think at the practical level their might not be much difference. Of course "balance with nature" and all similar sorts of ideals should never interfere with technological progress, no doubt. Objectivism has made that known to me. I guess I am just biased towards nature since I have always been an environmentalist at heart. It's a slight struggle for me to figure out how to reconcile the sometimes competing views. But I feel I am nearing a comfortable synthesis. Thank you all and I bid you well.

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Post 36

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

Based upon your last post, I'll conclude by saying that this is a complex issue and the heart of it has to do with the mechanism for making the choices. Once a person has a more precise grasp of the concept 'value' then it moves into the economic/political arena where the decisions as to which 'value' is to be preserved at the expense of some other 'value.' Are the decisions to be made by government, or by the voluntary actions of individuals in a free market?

If the choice is government, then you have the whole problem of finding standards for making the decisions (hint: it can't be done in a way that will stand up to reason or justice).

Here is the Objectivist position. Extend property rights far beyond what we have now and the free market will be the mechanism to preserve values - including environmental values. People protect their privately-held property and private actors are more easily held responsible for harmful actions. Those things that do not occur as an action of a government and those things that are not done to public property are more easily insured against. Of course, this short paragraph only hints at what is involved and all that can be done in this vein.

I look forward to your future posts.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 1/05, 5:13pm)


Post 37

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Delong:
Of course technology has done a lot of good things for humanity and should be continued no doubt.
This has been a very civil discourse and I don't want to change that, but that above statement of yours reveals your present attitude in spite of your partial recantation below:
 ... I (formerly) despised all human activities as evil and selfish and corruptive.
For Galt's sake, man, "technology has done a lot of good things for humanity?" That is the understatement of the century. What are the wheel, fire, spears, arrows, iron ....? Without technology we'd still be living in the trees or caves, probably without meaningful language. But perhaps we'd be "nobler" living with nature and dying in the early 30's.

Sam


Post 38

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Delong,

What about the argument that it is not CO2 that drives air temperature, but the change in air temperature that is responsible for the level of atmospheric CO2?

According to this theory, the ice-core record indicates that when the climate emerged from an ice age to a warmer period, the temperature started to warm first by at least a few hundred to a few thousand years before the actual CO2 level began to respond.

So while there is a correlation between global warming and CO2, as Al Gore has pointed out, he infers that it is the CO2 that produced the global warming, when in fact it is just the other way around. So, on this interpretation, restricting man-made CO2 isn't going to stop global warming anyway. And if we do try to restrict it, we may be adversely affecting plant growth and food production.


Post 39

Wednesday, January 5, 2011 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Deforestation is one of the big arguments that environmentalists put forth, e.g. man's rapacious exploitation of the rain forests for agriculture and other purposes. I'm not unequivocably approving of this practice but what we never hear about from the environmentalists is reforestation. Even if one accepts that global warming is indeed a fact then one must acknowledge that the vast areas of permafrost will thaw and new vegetation will thrive in those areas and, ultimately, lush forests will also flourish, as in geological times.

Yes, there is an argument that the thawing permafrost will release CO2 from the ancient, frozen vegetation that will rot but it isn't conceivable that it would release more carbon than would be later sequestered in the new forests. As someone on this thread observed, the more CO2 in the atmosphere, the faster the forests will grow.

Sam

(Edited by Sam Erica on 1/05, 8:06pm)


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