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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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How would Objectivism object the following scenario? (which I'll title -- to make it easier to refer to)

Title:
"You Exist Because We Once Stupidly Believed In Self-Sacrifice"
(feel free to invent some shorter and better title)

Scenario:

A man and woman marry. At the time of their marriage, and for several years thereafter, they accepted the false premise that some sort of "duty" required having at least one child -- although they also recognized rationally, even then, that having and rearing a child[ren] would be against their own rational self-interests. They did not at all want to have children or to rear children, but they made sure to have one -- and they made sure to rear that child as competently as they knew how: purely "out of self-sacrifice and out of duty" (as they would have put it at the time) to obey peer pressure or to obey some religious creed or to obey anything else that (they knew full well at the time) they could not rationally justify obeying. They absolutely do not love the child at all; they have it purely out of a belief that "it's their duty" (e.g., perhaps they have it even though their doctor informs them that having a child will permanently impair the woman's help) and similarly care for it and educate it -- giving it the very best care and education they know how to provide -- purely out of a loveless "sense of duty." (E.g., left to themselves, this man and woman wouldn't have cared a bit whether their child grew up informed or ignorant. But -- purely out of a loveless, altruistic "sense of duty" -- they take great pains to seek out the only school for miles around which actually teaches competently.)

Some years later (the child is still dependent on them), this man and woman finally come to realize that
/a/ self-sacrifice/doing things out of irrational "duties" and altruism/etc. are evil, not good as they had mistakenly assumed, and that
/b/ rational beings' rational self-interests ultimately cannot conflict: the self-interest of Rational Being #1 cannot possibly compel or justify the self-sacrifice of Rational Being #2.

Realizing this, and knowing already that their child exists only because they wrongly, altruistically chose to violate their own rational self-interest, they recognize that it was not in their own self-interest for a child of theirs to ever exist. Since they are committed to telling the truth -- no longer out of altruism and "duty," as back in their old less-rational days, but now out of a recognition that dishonesty is irrational -- one day, when their child asks "Why did you decide to have a child?" they answer the question honestly: "You exist because, years ago, we had you 'out of a sense of duty' which we now know that we should never have done."

The child then asks: "Then my existence -- and your having cared for me all these years -- was, and is, in violation of your rational self-interest?"

/a/
Should the parents reply "Yes"? Why, or why not? If not -- how should they reply?

/b/
Assume that the parents do in fact answer "Yes," and that the child thinks this over: "Hmmm ... if my very existence was and is against your ultimate self-interest as rational beings, and if the self-interests of rational beings cannot ultimately conflict, then -- since I am a rational being -- my very existence must be against my *own* self-interest!"
------- Is that reasoning correct? Why, or why not?
------- If that reasoning is correct, what action would the child be justified in taking (either during childhood, or when grown), on the basis of such reasoning?
In other words, how is one's life affected (and/or how should one's life be affected) by knowing for a fact that one would not even have existed without some anti-rational (and therefore wrong) decision-making?




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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 7:13amSanction this postReply
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First, it's hard to imagine what kind of monstrous cultural pressure or statist dictates and mandates would enable a couple to take such an action. Altruism to that extent would have resulted in their deaths long before a child could even be conceived.

Second, it's equally difficult to imagine a couple who would go to such lengths to undercut their own nature as thinking, valuing human beings.  These people sound much more like robots than human beings. Not only is it impossible for me to relate to them, it's hard to imagine the kind of person who could relate to them.

 my very existence must be against my *own* self-interest!"
------- Is that reasoning correct? Why, or why not?


It isn't correct because the premise is flawed. He exists, thus, he should be self interested. That is the long established, objectively observable nature of human beings: to be rationally self interested.  His conclusion is contrary to his nature as a thinking, valuing human being.


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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Teresa.
As it happens, I have seen and heard people claim -- at times, to their children or otherwise in the presence of their own children -- that they had children purely out of "a sense of duty." Oftenest, those making that statement have described the "duty" as a duty they believed they owed to their family/their heritage/their ethnic group.

Have you never even heard -- or at least heard of -- anyone stating that as their reason for having children?

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Yes, and children have even been conceived in rape. But who cares? You don't owe people for things they did without your consent, like conceiving you. Nor do you bear the blame for the fact that any of your ancestors were raped. And you wouldn't exist if some fish didn't copulate with some other fish, but no one worries about the fact that without mindless instinctual fish sex none of us would have been born.

And then there is the question of existence. Do you owe your "existence" to that selfless act of duty? If by existence you mean the entirety of your being, then of course not. You are responsible for what you have done with your life since the age of reason. If by existence you mean only that the chain of caustaion allowing your continuation wasn't interrupted at some point in your life, that's about as relevant as saying you owe your existence to the fact that no one you have ever come into contact with has ever murdered you.

The proper response to someone who says he did something for you out of a sense of duty is "that's your problem."

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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In general, that was the way of it, this 'duty' of it, thru almost all of human history - only in more recent times has the issue of self-interest in having children come about, and only to a distinct minority of the population of the world...

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Re:

If by existence you mean only that the chain of caustaion allowing your continuation wasn't interrupted at some point in your life, that's about as relevant as saying you owe your existence to the fact that no one you have ever come into contact with has ever murdered you.

The situations differ.
When people refrain from murdering each other, they are (in that regard, at least) refraining from doing wrong.

It is no shame to acknowledge that one of the reasons that each of us is alive is the fact that others have (in one instance, at least) acted as reason would dictate (by refraining from murder).

But it is shameful -- or, at least, can be very hard to integrate! -- when one must acknowledge that one of the reasons one is alive is that someone else (or, in this case, two "someone elses") intentionally did conscious, planned, pre-meditated evil (not merely mindless animal sex, as in Teresa's example of our prehistoric fish ancestors, but intentional, consciously thought-out wrongdoing: as in Teresa's other example of rape).

Certainly Teresa's statement is correct: the parents' evils were not -- could not have been -- the child's choice, and therefore the child has no moral responsibility in the matter and should logically feel no shame over being the result of soneone else's bad decisions. What one should logically feel, however, one does not always succeed in persuading oneself to feel: it is entirely possible to feel shame over circumstances that aren't your fault, no matter how well one understands and agrees with the necessary truth of the reasoning that shows that one shouldn't be feeling that way.

Once a person (e.g., the child in this story) recognizes the logic and necessity of a piece of reasoning (e.g., the reasoning that Teresa has presented), how can that person best change his/her wrongly based feelings (e.g., feelings of shame when the shame is undeserved) when those wrongly based feelings persist despite the knowledge -- even repeatedly repeated and reinforced -- that the feelings are wrongly based?

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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To call having a child out of a sense of duty "conscious premeditated evil" is a huge equivocation. The people who have children out of duty do not think they are doing evil, since they think acting out of duty is good. I would like to have the ability to make a verbal distinction between, for example, duteous parents on one hand and nihilistic murderers on the other.

My distinction between the senses of being responsible for one's existence was a metaphysical one, not a moral one. You understand the difference between a father's not wearing a condom being responsible for the fact that your existence was not prevented and your responsibility as an adult for the sum of the acts and accomplishments of your adult life. One is responsibility for the whole as a whole, the other is responsibility for the lack of interruption in the causal chain. The distinction between you not being murdered and you not being contraceived (contracepted?) is a moral point not relevant to the metaphysical point I wanted to make.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 3/20, 1:48pm)


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Post 7

Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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Kate said, "if my very existence was and is against [my parents'] ultimate self-interest as rational beings, and if the self-interests of rational beings cannot ultimately conflict, then -- since I am a rational being -- my very existence must be against my *own* self-interest!"

The error is in conflating the parents' interests with the child's self-interest. These are separate people with different contexts and different values living at a different times - they are going to have different interests, even though the interests are rationally arrived at.

The child's interest in its own existence can never be the same thing as the parent's interest in the existence of someone else (the child). Just as my interest in a breakfast that includes bacon is very different from the pig's interest in not participating in that breakfast.

Conflicts can and do exist among rational people on specifics - just not on basic principles.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 3/20, 10:51pm)


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Post 8

Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Some good replies to Kate, to which I'll add the following:

Hi Kate. You wrote,
Assume that the parents do in fact answer "Yes," and that the child thinks this over: "Hmmm ... if my very existence was and is against your ultimate self-interest as rational beings, and if the self-interests of rational beings cannot ultimately conflict, then -- since I am a rational being -- my very existence must be against my *own* self-interest!"
------- Is that reasoning correct? Why, or why not?
No, I don't think so. By "no conflicts of interest," Rand is referring to a rational harmony of interests among people who already exist and who reside within a normal social context, one in which survival by production and trade is possible. Conflicts of interest could certainly exist outside of that context, in which case, each party to the conflict should egoistically pursue his or her self-interest apart from and against the interest of the other party.

Nor does it follow that my very existence must be against my self-interest, since whether something is for or against my self-interest depends on and presupposes that I already exist. It makes no sense to say that being born is in my self-interest, because something cannot be either for or against the self-interest of a person who does not yet exist.
In other words, how is one's life affected (and/or how should one's life be affected) by knowing for a fact that one would not even have existed without some anti-rational (and therefore wrong) decision-making?
Ideally, it should have no bearing on it whatsoever. One can and must deal only with what already exists. The fact that it may not have been in the interest of one's parents to bring one into the world does not in any way adversely affect one's character or moral worth, which depends only one's own choices and actions. To deny this is tantamount to endorsing a secular version of original sin.

- Bill


(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/20, 5:21pm)


Post 9

Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
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I sanctioned the last 3 comments.



Post 10

Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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Either I or Joe Maurone thanks you, Kate. :)

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