About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Post 80

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Curtis Edward Clark wrote:
Were you talking to me, or to him?
Him.

Ted Keer wrote:
Curtis, I was denying the validity of Daniel's question, telling Merlin that he took the ("wrong") side of a false dichotomy
I wasn't taking any side. I only meant that if an ethic is never "results based", the opposite side is usually considered to be deontologist. In my opinion Objectivism is neither deontological nor purely consequentalist.


Post 81

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Meaning, I assume, that you deny the dichotomy? I used the scare quotes because I didn't expect you really wanted to go there. Okay.



Post 82

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Ted. I edited the thing.

Ed


Post 83

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John,

If you don't get 4 atlas icons tagged onto your post 78 then I will be shocked (it was that good). Nice post, man.

Ed


Post 84

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
But I get nothing for having ed-i-ted you?

Post 85

Monday, December 21, 2009 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks Ed!

Post 86

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
After doing some further reading, including the Ayn Rand Lexicon site, I think I've found a possible source of the disagreement I seem to be having with most other posters here: that being the perspective of the posters.

While trying to preserve certain aspects of my privacy, I will say that my monthly "disposable" income, after rent, utilities, and groceries, is approximately USD$100 - which has to cover clothing, transportation, entertainment, gifts, and trying to save for unexpected expenses. (I am very fortunate in having managed to arrange for a way to connect to the internet that doesn't cost me money.) And yes, this /is/ after doing everything I can to maximize my income and minimize my expenses, and every other suggestion you might care to make. If I did not have free health care, I would have, to a first approximation, no health care at all. I have been hospitalized more than once in my life; if I had not gotten such treatment due to it being unaffordable, it is quite likely that I would not be around to be writing this post.

The impression I am getting from the other posters seems to be an implicit assumption that, whatever social safety net is in place, they will be paying for it, rather than benefiting from it. I, on the other paw, regularly interact with people who did everything "right", but through circumstances that really /were/ beyond their control, need help. As the lyrics go, "Every town / Has its ups and down / Sometime ups / Outnumber the downs / But not in Nottingham". Bad things happen quite randomly - some people have fewer bad things than average happen to them, some people have more, a few have a /lot/ more.

When, in a much earlier post, I asked if another poster would prefer a system that complied with his view of Objectivist ethics but in which a great many people happened to die... his response seemed to be based on the assumption that he would automatically be one of the survivors, while, if asked something similar, I would assume there would be a good chance I'd be on the wrong side of the dividing line.

From a purely selfish point of view, taking only my own personal rational self-interest into account, fulfilling Objectivism's ethical standard of /my/ own life, then the evidence is fairly clear to me: enjoying Canadian health care means I'm alive, while if I'd enjoyed American health care instead, I'd likely be dead.

I'm not super-rationalist omni-competent super-man, striding boldly into the future; self-sufficient in every way; never harmed by third-party externalities; able to read contracts at a glance and having every piece of information necessary to find where I'd be screwed over; able to detect building design flaws, medical fraud, contaminated food, and so on, and able to take such companies to court to hold them liable and argue my own case. I'm a part of a society, and I need the benefits that being in a society provides to survive, let alone prosper.


Please don't mistake my point here - I don't think that the items in the Politics section at ImportanceOfPhilosophy.com are, in fact, bad ideas. I think that, in a great deal of cases, they are very good ideas indeed, and quite often much better than the ideas that are currently being put into practice. I simply don't believe they're /always/ the /best/ ideas, even to accomplish their own stated ethical goal. If that means that my philosophy isn't "pure" enough to be called Objectivism, at least as defined by the forumites here, then I'll be quite comfortable in editing my profile to tick the 'non-Objectivist' box. On the other paw, it might just mean that since I agree with a great many Objectivist points, while disagreeing with a few that run counter to my own experience, then the phrase that would best describe my current philosophy might be something like "a sort of neo-Objectivism" (though, of course, even the idea that such a phrase might refer to anything at all would likely set off howls of protest from existing Objectivists, potentially leading to accusations of trolling and even banning, so it's probably best if I don't try /actually/ using that phrase to describe myself...).


Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Post 87

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 3:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Boese wrote:
The impression I am getting from the other posters seems to be an implicit assumption that, whatever social safety net is in place, they will be paying for it, rather than benefiting from it.
Aside from the fact that he is right about those of us arguing with him, I would defend the right of any other person not to have to pay for Mr. Boese's health care, even if I myself was not paying for it.

Mr. Boese, from a purely utilitarian point of view, I would think you would be for voluntary charity over having a government pistol placed at the head of people forced to pay for your care. Stats have shown that charity in the U.S. was at its all time high per capital before the introduction of income taxes, after which it dropped precipitously. It didn't begin to come near the previous per capital levels until well into the Reagan administration.

But from a purely "me" point of view, so long as you are taken care of, having that government gun pointed at our head is fine with you. Then you wrote:
From a purely selfish point of view, taking only my own personal rational self-interest into account, fulfilling Objectivism's ethical standard of /my/ own life, then the evidence is fairly clear to me: enjoying Canadian health care means I'm alive, while if I'd enjoyed American health care instead, I'd likely be dead.

Well, there you go again with the results-based ideas. Not only are you looking only at results---oh, forget the means!---but you are not saying what most other Objectivists would say, to wit: It is not in your self-interest to point the government gun at other people's heads if you value your own head. If you don't value your own head, well then, off with theirs!
 
Because if you valued your own head, you wouldn't want the government gun pointed at anyone. The non-initiation of force means you don't have the right to point the gun at everyone who has the means to prevent your death, because they have the right not to prevent your death. That may sound cold. But we all know there are some people we would not help. We ought, however, to be free to choose whom we help. Your life is not a blank check on our wallets.

If America (and Canada) were to return to an all-volunteer charity system today, it would take years to catch up to where we need to be to help the unfortunate people such as yourself. The truth is, government always did pay for certain things, like charity hospitals and sanitoriums and insane asylums. But they were always with the purpose of doing as little as possible because, while having government pay for such things was better than having the raving lunatics walking the streets, or having the TB infected patient coughing on people, no one thought the charity patient deserved to have what the paying patient could have if it was at the expense of the paying patients to pay for the charity patient.

If we take your argument to its logical extreme, then we are absolutely talking about total economic equality---you get exactly the same as what I get, because it is in the rational self-interest of the poor to point the government gun at the heads of the wealthy in order for them to enjoy, as you so blithely put it, what others can afford.

No, Mr. Boethe, you would not be dead. America has Medicaid for its poorest. This is something few Americans, even Objectivists, object to. We know we can't have people falling dead in the grocery stores and behind the wheels of their cars, or breathing their diseases onto others.

What we object to is the government gun, but we are willing to put up with it so long as those who hold that gun don't try to equalize our paychecks with your government-guaranteed income. Freely-given charity does tend to rise when it is most needed. Hurricane Katrina was the largest single incident of this principle, and it still broke the back of the American Red Cross.

We are like you when you say you are not a "super-rationalist omni-competent super-man, striding boldly into the future." All we know is that when John Galt was offered what you are asking for, at the first meeting between the Starnes heirs and the workers of the Twentieth Century Motor Car Company, he went on strike against that system. You on the other hand are full of reasons for pointing the government-held gun at our heads for your own benefit and full of reasons for calling that your "rational self-interest". Well, Mr. Boethe, what if I held a gun to your head and said, "Your money or your life"?

I'll bet you would say, "You can't do that. You're not the government."


Post 88

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 4:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted,

You will get nothing and like it. If you are an Atlas-junkie, then you should have taken the care to email me in private. The prize that you got this time was a public display of your superior mastery of words. In the future, now you know you have an either/or choice.

I won't let you have cake and eat, at one and the same time.

Ed


Post 89

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,

When, in a much earlier post, I asked if another poster would prefer a system that complied with his view of Objectivist ethics but in which a great many people happened to die... his response seemed to be based on the assumption that he would automatically be one of the survivors, while, if asked something similar, I would assume there would be a good chance I'd be on the wrong side of the dividing line.
You've just described a thought experiment in the book: A Theory of Justice, by John Rawls (a utilitarian). Are you familiar with the "veil of ignorance" experiment?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/22, 5:01am)


Post 90

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel Boese,

Thanks for giving your perspective in post 86. It is a very common one. Even if a person is not in a similar situation, it is easy to empathize with it. That is probably why government funded health care is so common in the world. However, it clashes with Objectivism.
 
You said:
While trying to preserve certain aspects of my privacy, I will say that my monthly "disposable" income, after rent, utilities, and groceries, is approximately USD$100 - which has to cover clothing, transportation, entertainment, gifts, and trying to save for unexpected expenses. (I am very fortunate in having managed to arrange for a way to connect to the internet that doesn't cost me money.) And yes, this /is/ after doing everything I can to maximize my income and minimize my expenses, and every other suggestion you might care to make. If I did not have free health care, I would have, to a first approximation, no health care at all. I have been hospitalized more than once in my life; if I had not gotten such treatment due to it being unaffordable, it is quite likely that I would not be around to be writing this post.
Consider this. Your disposable income is also after taxes, a chunk of which is payment towards the Canadian health care system and other welfare programs. You are chipping in to pay a bit of the cost of health care and other welfare for all other Canadians using the public system. Imagine how much higher your disposable income would be without that burden. Maybe you could easily afford to buy health insurance on your own.

That exposes the "concentrated benefits but dispersed costs" nature of government welfare. Too many people see the benefits but not the costs, or that the benefit to themselves and other people they would like to help exceeds the cost to themselves.



Post 91

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Curtis,

There's an old saying you might be familiar with: "No taxation without representation". Your suggestions seem to be "No taxation /with/ representation, either"; is that the case, or am I misinterpreting a post again?

(I would also dispute what you say the "logical extreme" of my views are, as a simple slippery-slope fallacy, but before I do, I want to make sure that I understand what you /are/ saying rather than making a strawman fallacy of my own.)


Ed,

I wasn't familiar with the "veil of ignorance" experiment by that name, but after looking it up, I now realize that I've seen similar arguments used by others in the past, and seem to have absorbed it by osmosis. I've also added Rawls' work to my list to look for the next time I trawl through a local used-book store; thank you for the reference.


Merlin,

Actually, in the Canadian tax system, people with income at my level effectively don't pay income taxes at all - I fill out the forms, and in the past few years, my tax credits have ended up with me receiving a (small) rebate. You suggest that I "Imagine how much higher your disposable income would be without that burden."; my income would, in fact, be (very slightly) lower. You suggest that "Maybe you could easily afford to buy health insurance on your own."; I would say 'probably not'.


Post 92

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,

Even if what I said in post 90 doesn't fit your situation, it is still food for thought. Also, with less government-run welfare, there would likely be much more privately-run charity and local aid (relatives, neighbors, friends). Importantly, private charities and local aid do not rely on coercion for their revenues. Government programs have usurped much of their domain.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 93

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Boese: American law is based on "common sovereignty." It took Mr. Jefferson and his friends to determine that what is "common" under such a system of government can only come from what is first "individual sovereignty".
Individual sovereignty was not a peculiar conceit of Thomas Jefferson: It was the common assumption of the day; link

Improper taxation is that which may be said to extend beyond what is reasonable for a sovereign individual to give to the common sovereignty, under a system which takes care to remember it gets its power from the individual. When you, Mr. Boese, put a gun to my head, that is not a system that I consider has "representation" and anything you take from me by that means is not "taxation".

As I stated earlier, if I did that to you, I'm certain you're only complaint would be that I don't have the power to do that because I'm not the government. If I am correct in that assumption, then you have no room to ask about "representation."

That, I hope, is a direct answer to your direct question. I can't answer it the way you would like, because as Ted keeps pointing out, you put everything into improper dichotomies. To answer you, we must see that, then untwist the dichotomy, then answer it as it ought to be asked.

But to my question, "What would you do if I put a gun to your head as you do to mine"?, you have not given a direct answer. Somehow you always seem to skirt answering direct questions.

(Edited by Curtis Edward Clark on 12/22, 7:27am)


Post 94

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

My apologies, Ed, it did not occur to me that you would be embarrassed, especially since your word choice was not entirely wrong, just unfortunate and suboptimal. You are right that blatant errors are best dealt with in private but this was more of a "teachable" than a "zipper your fly" moment. I really would have preferred just the sanction, but I will indeed settle for your admission of my superiority. And like it.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/22, 9:13am)


Post 95

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

The rhetoric on that link about consequentialism and more was a little biased though, as you pointed out, but I found it fairly accurate nonetheless. I don't want to go off on a tangent, though.

Hi Daniel,

Given your situation, you might choose to consider what Rand wrote:
The recipient of a public scholarship is morally justified only so long as he regards it as restitution and opposes all forms of welfare statism. Those who advocate public scholarships, have no right to them; those who oppose them, have. If this sounds like a paradox, the fault lies in the moral contradictions of welfare statism, not in its victims.

Since there is no such thing as the right of some men to vote away the rights of others, and no such thing as the right of the government to seize the property of some men for the unearned benefit of others—the advocates and supporters of the welfare state are morally guilty of robbing their opponents, and the fact that the robbery is legalized makes it morally worse, not better. The victims do not have to add self-inflicted martyrdom to the injury done to them by others; they do not have to let the looters profit doubly, by letting them distribute the money exclusively to the parasites who clamored for it. Whenever the welfare-state laws offer them some small restitution, the victims should take it . . . .

The same moral principles and considerations apply to the issue of accepting social security, unemployment insurance or other payments of that kind. It is obvious, in such cases, that a man receives his own money which was taken from him by force, directly and specifically, without his consent, against his own choice. Those who advocated such laws are morally guilty, since they assumed the “right” to force employers and unwilling co-workers. But the victims, who opposed such laws, have a clear right to any refund of their own money—and they would not advance the cause of freedom if they left their money, unclaimed, for the benefit of the welfare-state administration.

(Here is a link to that Lexicon excerpt.)
 Jordan


Post 96

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,

To be clear, I do not agree with Rawls -- I just noticed how similar his thought is to yours.


Ted,

It's like you are toying with me, playing on my presumed, competitive insecurities. I need you to know that I will have none of that. I will not let you push me around. I am NOT defensive, dammit.

For the record, when I said that you were better than I am, I meant that you are a better "word-sleuth" or a better "word con-a-sewer", if you will. You are a "greater debator", a "faster word master", and a "better word getter" -- if you get my drift.

Perhaps it's inescapable for me to do so, but I still think I can think in the abstract better than you (on average). Only thing is, in order for me to be able to demonstrate this conjecture as an actual aspect of revealed reality -- then I would have to use ... [drumroll] ... words (the very thing that makes you superior).

Aaaaaaaaaagh!

It's like I want to be able to prove I'm the better swimmer, but I can't get out of the desert to do so. I don't know. Oh woe is me, I guess. It's hard to be humble. It's hard to be me. It's lonely at the top. If I've missed anything, I'm sure you'll let me know.

I often find a glimmer of hope in the notion that perhaps my near-infinite, hardly-precedented wisdom will shine through between the lines of the words which I write or have written. However, I have since resigned myself to live with just the robust appearance of being very, very thoughtful -- when in reality I am a complete, utter, and total genius on a level not too terribly different from former mental giants such as Einstein.

They say Einstein could rotate complex images in his mind and tell you what they look like, shadows included, when rotated a little or a lot. I can do that kind of a trick with whole systems of philosophy -- seeing them from all angles, objectively (i.e., with a "complete" perspective).

But I wouldn't want to hijack the thread in order to run a personal PR campaign on myself -- so I will just have to stop right there (before getting "out of hand" or something).

:-)

Ed

Post 97

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've had another thought that might throw a new light on the apparent differences of opinion between myself and, well, everyone else here, though I'm not sure whether it would generate more heat than light or vice versa.

What would you think if I tried to throw into the debate, the notion that the fiat currency issued by most present-day governments is, essentially, worthless? That its only true value is that the issuing government itself is willing to accept such scrip to pay its taxes... and the fact that such currency is commonly used as a unit of account and as a medium of exchange has nothing to do with its inherent lack of being able to be used as a store of value. In this sense, government-issued scrip is valueless... and, thus, a government demanding such scrip "at the point of a gun", as has been described so many times in this thread, is not, in fact, taking away any real value from the taxpayer.

I don't actually /believe/ the above paragraph, but several Objectivists I've talked with have expressed such a view on fiat money, and trying to apply it to the discussion here on whether taxation can be ethical seems to have an amusing result. :)


Curtis,

Re not directly answering questions. A lot of questions contain hidden assumptions, those assumptions not always being true: eg, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?". When such questions are asked, I've learned that it seems to be more productive to try to deal with those assumptions rather than try to say, "No, I haven't stopped beating my wife." Which is, in fact, pretty much what you did, when I asked the yes-or-no question about 'taxation with representation', and you spent some time on your answer without quite saying either 'yes' /or/ 'no'.

As /for/ your question: if someone is literally holding a gun to my head, and makes demands that I do something or they will kill me dead dead dead, I will likely do whatever I need to to save my own life, though if I am ordered to do something that completely offends my perception of my basic human dignity, there's a reasonable chance I'd rather swallow a bullet then become a person who has committed such an act. (I'm only human, and my own thought processes are unclear to me - I don't know if I /can/ know what I would do in such a situation before it happens, and since it's one I hope never does, it may be a piece of knowledge I'll never possess.) What happens when they take the gun /from/ my head... will likely be based on my perception of them as a future threat to my life, and my perception of my own physical abilities relative to theirs. Whether this set of hypothetical literal actions has any applicability to a /metaphorical/ gun, is an open question, requiring, first, that I /perceive/ a direct threat to my life.


Jordan,

Re scholarship. I need to think about that perspective a bit more, but at the moment, the idea that the main criteria of whether someone deserves government money is whether or not they believe the government should be distributing it seems... how should I put this... highly counter-intuitive.


Ed,

Fair enough. I'm omnivorous in my reading habits, since increasing my understanding in one area often helps me understand seeming unrelated areas. I've already found a small text covering Rawls and his work, and am enjoying learning about a way of thinking about these matters that I hadn't quite been aware of before.


Post 98

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel I believe you are dropping context. The government outlaws any other forms of currency to be used as legal exchange. It's not just that they require you pay taxes with fiat currency. You don't have a choice when in engaging in trade. Either you don't trade at all, or you can trade with government issued currency. It's "worth" only exists because it is a forced choice. A government manufactured "car" would have worth as well if the government outlawed any privately manufactured cars. Only because if you needed to travel, you would have no other option but to take a government issued car.

Re scholarship. I need to think about that perspective a bit more, but at the moment, the idea that the main criteria of whether someone deserves government money is whether or not they believe the government should be distributing it seems... how should I put this... highly counter-intuitive.


As Rand says in the essay Jordan links, "If this sounds like a paradox, the fault lies in the moral contradictions of welfare statism, not in its victims."



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 99

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:31amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Boese:
In this sense, government-issued scrip is valueless... and, thus, a government demanding such scrip "at the point of a gun", as has been described so many times in this thread, is not, in fact, taking away any real value from the taxpayer.

Once again you totally miss the concept of the initiation of force, and individual sovereignty as the source of governemental power.

And yes, I do believe in taxation with representation, but not when the initiation of force is used against the side that has right, not might, on their side. I did directly answer you when I said:
Improper taxation is that which may be said to extend beyond what is reasonable for a sovereign individual to give to the common sovereignty, under a system which takes care to remember it gets its power from the individual.
As it seems you will never be willing to concede, in a forum filled with Objectivists, that your epistemology is entirely different than that of of an Objectivist (which doesn't mean "finding ways to object" as you are so good at,) I'm through with this thread.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.