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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Something Phil said earlier got me thinking about the ethics/morality of corporations. I'm not referring to the actions of individual corporations, but the practice in itself. I'm seeing some arguments against the practice that seem to weigh heavily against. I'm interested in counterargument or principles that I may be missing. I would like to begin by pointing out that I'm undecided (though leaning toward against) on the issue, which surprised me as I began with a positive slant. Any discussion would be appreciated.

I'm beginning my cognition with the premise that a corporation has 3 basic purposes. They are as follows.

1. To organize the business and delineate the relationship among the owners and stockholders.

2.To provide a limited buffer between the owners and criminal liability.

3. To provide a limited buffer between the owners and civil liability.

It is with purpose 2 and 3 that I find issues. Both uses are essentially buying favors from the gov't. Are there any arguments that even attempt to reconcile the principle of separation of state and economics? The concept of purchasing special protection from the justice system is obviously problematic as well. I rarely hear any sort of anti-corporate argument that isn't some rehashed "They make money and products, so they're evil." nonsense. Do you think the gov't should be supplying this service?

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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I am pretty sure there was another thread on this before, you may want to look for it and/or check Phil's gallery items.

Post 2

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Ryan, there is an issue you barely touched -- the difference between executives/managers/employees and passive investors. The former run the business. The latter invest in the business but are not at all involved in running it, beyond voting shares. If a business is liable for something it did that brought harm to others,which can only be done by executives/managers/employees, what justifies liability (beyond the amount of money invested) to those who merely provided financing? If stockholders who never worked for the business are liable, then why shouldn't bondholders and other lenders be liable as well?

Many modern corporations have lots of passive shareholders and creditors, and who they are and how much they have is constantly changing. Therefore, in the event a business has brought great harm to others, deciding who the passive shareholders and creditors were and to what extent they should be liable would often be a nightmare. 

Phil likes to harp about corporations -- as if all are merely creatures of government that have been granted special privileges  -- but the same issues arise for other business forms such as a partnership.

There are some thorny issues, but simplistic answers like 'corporations should be illegal' or 'limited liability should be illegal' are in my opinion far from adequate.  If strict enough, simplistic answers are tantamount to no joint ventures at all.

Here is another thread involving the topic.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 10/07, 6:23am)

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 10/07, 6:54am)


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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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I think those points are valid, but somewhat clearly solvable within a different paradigm.

-I believe the issue of bondholders and stockholder liability is manageable without the purchase of protection from the gov't. Purchase of stock and assignment of proxy authority could be contingent upon a standard agreement that the funds be used only for legal purposes. A similar clause could be added to employment contracts or clearly stated conditions of employment. Any use of resources for illegal purposes or illegal activities would be effectively be fraud against the stockholders, which could be dealt with through a normal civil and/or criminal court system.

-It seems to me that limiting high liability for high risk endeavors such as speculative technology and/or trade related businesses could be handled by contract conditions specifying that only funds and real goods that were operative within the business are valid for recouping of loaned capital. The difference being the contract would be voluntarily signed by all parties, not a legal status enforced by the gov't against the other party. Large corporations might include this clause in business contracts with each other as a matter of policy.

-Partnerships don't seem to be much different with respect to this particular issue. I personally can't think of any liability situation or assignment of responsibility that couldn't be handled within the realm of consensual contracts. In fact, it seems to me that the common use of only voluntary contracts for the purposes of liability and responsibility would help the smaller partnerships. They would have access to the same protective mechanisms that large corporations have with the benefit of a drastically simpler system. A simpler system means less fees and taxes, which hurt the new and small business more than the huge established one.

-Clear objective standards can be set to define the extent of damages assigned against a business as a matter of law. An example would be limiting civil damages to assets used within the business if it is proven that due diligence was taken to prevent injuries or accidents. The standard of proof would be loosely set beforehand. Examples include product research, clear statements informing customers of potential risks, and common risk prevention measures.

- I would like to mention that I am not anti-corporation in the sense that I don't believe corporations as organizations are inherently immoral or unethical. Nor do I think that incorporating a business within the current system is immoral or unethical. My stance nearly identical to the argument I've often heard regarding the so called "Robber Barons". Namely, that they did nothing immoral or unethical by dealing with gov't officials that demanded graft not to obstruct legitimate endeavors. It isn't immoral or unethical to play by the other guy's rules just to earn a livelihood when he's the one holding the gun. The ethical breach I believe is occurring is on the side of the gov't that maintains a system in which businesses must purchase charters of protection rather than simply create contracts amongst themselves and expect objective and impartial adjudication from their gov't.

-I mentioned Phil saying in the OP, and Merlin mentioned his commonly held stance of "evil corporations". The thing that Phil said that got me thinking was essentially "I don't like corporations", not an actual argument. That sort of statement is often enough to get me thinking on a subject and error checking my views in light of other principles I've evaluated as correct and adopted. I'm not sure what Phil's position on the matter is in depth, but going on history I expect to discover significant variances between his cognition and my own.

Jumping to other thread now. This seemed the appropriate thread to address Merlin's post, but if there is an established venue I'll use that from this point forward.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan:  You might want to check out "Gangs of America."  (.com)  The author is a liberal-left businessman, but he has a lot of good material.  I did NOT, BTW, get my own analysis from him or anyone else.  It is entirely my own.  However, AFTER I came to my conclusions, I then discovered that there has been quite a lot of analysis, both good and bad, biased and objective, on the issue of children of the state.

 

For an objectivist, the issue here should be one of state theft.  The corporation as such is evil, because it represents the involuntary (just to be redundant) theft of the value represented in the unbacked risk that is offloaded to the general populace.  Risk is a real objective thing.  It exists and can be measured.  Limiting risk by state fiat is theft, as the unbacked risk does not go away, but is now dumped on largely unwitting victims.

 

Artificially limiting risk has another cost.  Risk is a factor taken into account in every decision that anyone ever makes.  Businesses, in particular, must factor in risk costs into their policies and investments.  If risk is capped then possible costs above the cap are discounted, meaning that a rational accountant for that business will forgo taking measures to limit exposure to high-end risk, further skewing the risk factor from a rational assessment.  This is particularly disturbing when one considers the $800 million cap on liabilities per incident for nuclear power plants.  It means that the power plants basically have no economic incentive to take effective measures against terrorist attacks, which could run into the tens of $billions in damages.  Do the math.

 

However, the same logic applies to all corporations, by virtue of the Ltd.  Limiting risk to the assets of an artificial person who cannot and thus clearly does not do or chose anything but what real people direct it to chose and do is just a formula for theft via recklessness.  As we have recently seen...

 

As to other business forms and contractual limitations on risk, the problem is that you can't include everyone in such a contract.  People take actions.  People should bear the consequences.

 

However, and this is the key point that only I have pushed, I think, the real issue is tort law.  So long as damages were limited to actual costs to the victims, plus court fees, etc., which is how the common law worked, it was possible to run a single owner, partnership, trust, etc., without incurring killer liability from some crazy or politically motivated vindictive jury.  Allowing unlimited punitive damages, however, meant that no matter WHAT your level of insurance, you could still be wiped out by such a jury.

 

This became the economic justification for the corporation as the preferred business model.  In fact, it was the evil "progressives," the same jerks who gave us compulsory state schooling, prohibition (and thus organized crime) and got us into WWI, setting the stage for most of the evils of the 20th century, it was those creeps who pushed for the corporate model, so that a new, super-entity corporate state would emerge, an unholy alliance uniting the economic with state power.   Anti-Trust was just that - Anti "Trust."  Pro-corporation.  Pro-"corporatism," another term for fascism, as Mussolini stated.

 

And the door that they crawled through to kill non-corporate business models was the new social-activist courts.

 

 

 




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Post 5

Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ryan,

I made one thread back in 2004 that questioned the corporate model on epistemic grounds. Phil made a subsequent thread titled Corporate Statism where he argued against the corporate model as state theft.

Jordan 


Post 6

Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the links.

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