About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've just joined this board, and hope that someone here has addressed -- or can and will address -- certain recent scientific findings about human sense perception (below) which appear to contradict a key point of Randian epistemology.

A recent JOURNAL OF PHYSICS article -- sourced and reported at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8631798 -- covers research which (according to the physicist author of the article) conclusively shows that certain species-wide errors of human color perception originate in the structure of the retina itself and thereby enter "the neural signal coming out of the eye — long before any processing by the brain" [_verbatim_ quote from the main author of the physics article]. The article includes (and to some extent the above-cited summary covers) experimental evidence for the statement (e.g., light-wave measurements taken through human retinas).

Comments? For those who'd like to read the JOURNAL OF PHYSICS article itself, and not just the above-linked summary, the summary gives the article's publication date and names the main author.



Post 1

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Kate,

What key point does it seem to contradict?

If our entire species sees the color the same way due to eye structure, what is the issue?

Regards,

Ethan 


Post 2

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Welcome, Kate!

Does the following quote from the article summarize the point you think Randian epistemology might not handle?


The same "trick" that makes red and green turn into yellow is happening in the sky.  But in this case, the sky's combination of violet and blue elicits the same cone response as pure blue plus white light, which is an equal mixture of all the colors.  

"Your eye can't tell the difference between that complex spectrum and one that is a mixture of pure blue and white,"

 

The article also points out that this "confused perception" happens long before judgement enters play.  A more threatening objection to Objectivist epistemology is the claim that judgement toys with perception.  Wikipedia entry on "perception" says: 

 

Passive perception (conceived by René Descartes) can be surmised as the following sequence of events: surrounding → input (senses) → processing (brain) → output (re-action). Although still supported by mainstream philosophers, psychologists and neurologists, this theory is nowadays losing momentum. The theory of active perception has emerged from extensive research of sensory illusions....... This theory, which is increasingly gaining experimental support, can be surmised as dynamic relationship between "description" (in the brain) ↔ senses ↔ surrounding, all of which holds true to the linear concept of experience. 

 

In passive perception, three variables must be taken into account in any perception: the nature of the object, the nature of the sense organ, and any medium between those (such as smoke, angle of sight, etc.).  Your perception is an account of all three variables.  After these are taken into account, there is no wrong way to perceive.  You are seeing the straightness of a stick if it appears bent in the water.  A color blind person's perception is just as objective as yours. 

 

"Only judgment can err" -Brand Blanshard [I may have botched this quote.  It might be "Only judgment can be mistaken."  Oops.]

 

If you wish to look into this more, I recommend David Kelley's Evidence of the Senses.

 

Hope this helps.


(Edited by Doug Fischer on 7/28, 9:11pm)


Post 3

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Objectivism does not require omniscience. Ms. Rand directly acknowledged that other potential sensory capabilities would sense reality in different ways, that doesn't change that existence is what it is, regardless of the method we use to sense it, and regardless of any "blind spots" we might have due to the nature of our perception. My eye can't tell the difference between a specific complex spectrum and a simpler one? My eye can't determine individual atoms in any object either. That doesn't change that the atoms exist. The same applies to highly nuanced perception of color. That we must invent technology to allow us to discriminate between attributes in our environment, as the scientists in the study presumably did, does not invalidate our senses as a means to gather data or learn. As a matter of fact, that our method of expanding knowledge involves expanding our basic senses tacitly confirms their validity.

EDIT - If I have misjudged what you are asking, it would be easier if you named the key point of Objectivist epistemology that you believe is contradicted.

Also, It is difficult to ascertain your intent and reason for asking from the language of your post. Could you please state whether you are asking from a genuinely questioning position or from an antagonistic one?

(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 7/28, 8:31pm)


Post 4

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kate,

Welcome to ROR. I think Doug and Ryan answered your question well,but hope you'll hang around and participate in other threads too.

jt

Post 5

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Kate, welcome to RoR

It of course requires sensory perception to acknowledge that humans make errors in color perception. You have to have had some kind of reference to reality to even come to that realization, for if you did not you would have no idea you made any errors in color perception. You compare what your naked eye can see to what mechanical equipment is indicating (which you need sensory perception to even make and understand its readings) and only then was a physicist even able to determine the error, which he accomplished using his sensory perception. You can't use sensory perception to repudiate sensory perception as that is stealing the concept.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks -- all your comments do help.

Post 7

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My understanding of Rand's position is that perception indicates "that" something exists, not "what" that thing is. "What" it is, is a conceptual issue, which is only handled implicitly on the perceptual level. Perceptually, we might recognize that two things are different, and, based on prior experience, implicitly treat them as entities of a particular sort.

A camera using a frozen neural net processor for auto-focus is a perceptual system of that sort. If you only wanted to focus on red objects, then you could use a filter to force the auto-focus to do just that. Or, perhaps you might want to focus only on a particular object moving against a background. Many newer cameras have that option built in as well.

The camera, however, has not a clue as to the actual nature of what it is perceiving. It is only organizing the data in such a way as to yield a particular, pre-specified result, based upon the sensory input. This is why no paint program, with its own library of techniques, frozen from experience in the form of program functions - e.g., directional sharpen - can reliably and precisely separate an object from its background.

The areas of ambiguity, where by chance adjacent pixels will be too close in color value, will always defeat it. (I hate to think of how many precious hours I've spent just cutting images from the backgrounds in COREL Draw.)

One of the areas that Rand did not discuss in writing, so far as I can recall, is just how it is that even on the perceptual level, living creatures manage this trick of picking objects from backgrounds. I brought this issue up in the early '70's among my objectivist friends of the time, some of whom were quite brilliant in terms of Rand's epistemology, and was told that it was a non-issue, but never with a satisfactory explanation.

In fact, for a living creature objects are an integration of multiple sensations based upon the identity of the actual object being perceived. This integration is not something built into the system from scratch, genetically programmed, but follows from an internal integration of normative processing - eg., value processing (pain or the expectation of pain, or pleasure, etc.) - with both individual objects and classes of objects. A large part of the identity of an object is its value relationship to the perceiver, something that I think Rand barely touches upon.

In theory, we could use all kinds of perceptual methods of classification - as in all red objects, or all square objects. In fact, we use those that allow us to function effectively as living things. We see that which we have pre-judged as important, based on our history, and ignore the infinity of other ways to see it and the universe of objects that are irrelevant to our values.

We can pick the object from the background because we already know what the object probably is, or at least what its general characteristics likely are. Thus, we know that regardless of color similarities in two overlapping faces in a crowd photo, that they are two people, not one, and that one person's face ends here and not on the far side of the other's nose. No mere software program could do that reliably across contexts.

A crow can recognize a particular person, even at a distance, even when they are wearing completely different clothes, a hat, a beard, etc. It can't abstract the process by which it knows that you are the crow molester who rescued the baby crow that decided to play in the traffic circle, but it will never ever forget you, because the memory of you is integrated with the normative evaluation "CROW MOLESTOR!!!" (which it will broadcast to the entire world every time you step outside for the next decade or so).

At the same time, the crow is capable of formulating implicit rules based on experience with regard to humans in general. As in, any human is to be treated as dangerous and suspect. However, with time and patience on the part of the human, it is possible for the crow to make exceptions to the rule in that regard, as well.

My understanding is that Rand included the concept of "Ist level concepts" to bridge from perceptions to explicit concepts. However, my impression is that she was using a passive model for the formation of percepts. I'm reasonably convinced that this is impossible. As in the camera model, you can only push a passive, non-normative model so far. It requires pre-judgment, and a limiting function based on values (to whom and for what) to reduce a buzzing, whirling set of sensations to a set of finite, concrete entities to be dealt with.

If you try to define perception as just the passive organization of sensations - an integration "based upon" the spacial temporal location of the source of the sensation - then you are not merely forced to bring in a new level - first level concepts - to deal with issues such as those I bring up above, but also you are faced with the fact that the "based on" function has been left undefined, leaving perception as a floating concept.

I think that this area of Rand's epistemology needs further explication and refinement at minimum.
(Edited by Phil Osborn on 8/16, 3:32pm)


Post 8

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil wrote,
My understanding is that Rand included the concept of "Ist level concepts" to bridge from perceptions to explicit concepts. However, my impression is that she was using a passive model for the formation of percepts. I'm reasonably convinced that this is impossible. As in the camera model, you can only push a passive, non-normative model so far. It requires pre-judgment, and a limiting function based on values (to whom and for what) to reduce a buzzing, whirling set of sensations to a set of finite, concrete entities to be dealt with.

If you try to define perception as just the passive organization of sensations - an integration "based upon" the spacial temporal location of the source of the sensation - then you are not merely forced to bring in a new level - first level concepts - to deal with issues such as those I bring up above, but also you are faced with the fact that the "based on" function has been left undefined, leaving perception as a floating concept.
Sensations (and their relationship to perception) are arrived at inferentially; direct awareness starts at the level of perception. You don't identify sensations by direct perception. You arrive at the knowledge of sensations indirectly as a scientific, conceptual discovery. That, at least, is the Objectivist view.

- Bill

Post 9

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Then an animal actively perceives? after all, conception is an overlay of earlier, animal attributes...

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As I recall (please correct me if I recall wrongly), at least some of Rand's nonfiction states that a newborn child is an emotional/cognitive _tabula_rasa_What about the research establishing genetic predispositions (apparently present at birth) for a wide range of emotional and cognitive behavior patterns (e.g., for shyness vs. self-assertion)?

Post 11

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kate Gladstone wrote:
As I recall (please correct me if I recall wrongly), at least some of Rand's nonfiction states that a newborn child is an emotional/cognitive _tabula_rasa_What about the research establishing genetic predispositions (apparently present at birth) for a wide range of emotional and cognitive behavior patterns (e.g., for shyness vs. self-assertion)?
Here is more exactly what Rand said in Virtue of Selfishness (p. 30):
Just as the pleasure-pain mechanism of man's body is an automatic indicator of his body's welfare or injury, a barometer of its basic alternative, life or death—so the emotional mechanism of man's consciousness is geared to perform the same function, as a barometer that registers the same alternative by means of two basic emotions: joy or suffering. Emotions are the automatic results of man's value judgments integrated by his subconscious; emotions are estimates of that which furthers man's values or threatens them, that which is for him or against him—lightning calculators giving him the sum of his profit or loss.
But while the standard of value operating the physical pleasure-pain mechanism of man's body is automatic and innate, determined by the nature of his body—the standard of value operating his emotional mechanism, is not. Since man has no automatic knowledge, he can have no automatic values; since he has no innate ideas, he can have no innate value judgments.
Man is born with an emotional mechanism, just as he is born with a cognitive mechanism; but, at birth, both are "tabula rasa." It is man's cognitive faculty, his mind, that determines the content of both. Man's emotional mechanism is like an electronic computer, which his mind has to program—and the programming consists of the values his mind chooses.
 I think one should keep in mind that "blank slate" does not mean "no slate."  This is a very common misinterpretation.



 


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks!

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kate,

What about the research establishing genetic predispositions (apparently present at birth) for a wide range of emotional and cognitive behavior patterns (e.g., for shyness vs. self-assertion)?
You describe temperament, which appears in the young even before they learn to speak (though it's cause hasn't been proven to be genetic, yet).

I don't think that it contradicts Rand because Rand left open part of someone's basic pleasure-pain, approach-withdraw attitude or temperament -- to be "determined by the nature of his body." It's not a great explanation, but that's because the science of basic temperament is young (even though there are 1000 year-old systems such as the enneagram -- and the 4 basic humours of Hippocrates -- in which basic temperaments were discovered and used successfully in life).

Ed


Post 14

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A close aside if I may:

I've been wondering about some of the implications of Rand's emotional theory.  Is this line of reasoning correct?

Emotions are based on value judgements.
Judgements are based on rational analysis.
Analysis requires a conceptual mind.
Animals do not have a conceptual faculty,
Therefore, humans are uniquely emotional creatures.

This seems plainly false.  I think my error is in understanding how analysis can happen at a purely perceptual level...


Post 15

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Emotions simply are.... WHAT the emotions emote about depends on value-jusgments [for me/against me]...

Post 16

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Human emotions are based upon value judgments. Other animals have different kinds of emotions.

And remember that "rational analysis" also includes irrational analysis (evasion, rationalization, logic errors, etc.)

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Friday, August 21, 2009 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here is a scientific abstract showing that "temperament" hasn't been proven to be genetic yet (italics added):

*******************
Rev Neurol. 2007 Oct 1-15;45(7):418-23

[The genetics of child temperament]

[Article in Spanish]
 
INTRODUCTION: In spite of the high initial expectancy in preliminary results concerning the genetics of personality, these studies have not provided satisfactory results. The failure could be related to the lack of biological validity of personality concept and the important influence of environmental factors on personality. A possible way to solve this problem is to look at the temperament of preschool children. It is expected that variability in infants' behaviour can be better defined and with less environmental influence.
 
DEVELOPMENT: Firstly, twin and adoption studies of child temperament in comparison with the studies of personality in adults are reviewed. Secondly, the molecular association studies carried out concerning child temperament are analyzed. The serotonin transporter gene (5-HTT), D4 receptor gene (DRD4) and mono amino oxidade-A gene (MAOA) have been considered candidates to explain variability in child temperament because these genes have been related with specific personality dimensions and mental diseases. Finally, the methodological problems and the future direction of research in this field are considered.
 
CONCLUSIONS: Heritability shows higher values in infant temperament than in adult personality. Different gene polymorphisms on 5-HTT, DRD4 and MAOA could explain some individual variability in children's behavior, although replication studies are needed to confirm the role of these genes. Longitudinal studies in large samples that include gene and environmental interactions are one of the best ways to improve our knowledge about the genetics of child temperament.
******************
Link:
 
Ed


Post 18

Friday, August 21, 2009 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Thank you for pointing out that emotions are based on evaluations of all sorts. 

Could you please go into further detail about animal emotions?  What are they based on if not evaluations?  Are you saying they experience a different variety of emotions, rather than happy, sad, etc?


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Friday, August 21, 2009 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think its helpful to distinguish between feelings, such as hunger, tiredness, pleasure and satiation, and emotions such as anger, fear and joy. (I believe there is an article that deals with this in the form of a book review in The Objectivist.) Feelings are positive or negative informational body states. They are more basic, and fully formed in higher animals. Emotions are judgement elicited feelings.

Feelings aren't learned, although our ability to identify them is learned. In other words, no cognition is required to feel hunger, but one has to learn what hunger signifies and how to react to it. Emotions involve at least some learning. Fear, for example, originates in the anticipation of pain or suffering. So fear has a somatic basis, but requires a judgment based on learning.

The emotions are largely automatized. The pathway that leads to conscious visual identification of a snake is different from the nerve pathway from the eye which causes the startle reflex when we see a snake. The emotional pathway is primed by earlier learning that went through the conscious visual identification pathway. Once it is automatized it becomes much quicker than the conscious identification pathway, which makes sense in avoidance of predators, etc. It is the fact that this pathway is separate and not under direct voluntary control that makes emotional reactions seem overwhelming and impossible to control. They can only be controlled by relearning, not simply by making a rational decision. This is why phobias have to be fought even if we know they are rational.

The entire pleasure/pain/feeling/emotion system is highly complex. Our vocabulary is woefully imprecise and inadequate. If medical doctors talked about the body the way we talk about emotions their vocabulary wouldn't be much more sophisticated than speaking of flesh, bones, guts and humors. The brain is literally as complex as the body which it regulates, in fact moreso. Even speaking of pleasure as if it were one thing is highly inaccurate. The different pleasure feedback systems are modulated by different pathways and neurotransmitters. This is why there is a difference between the pleasure one gets from alcohol or tobacco, or morphine and amphetamines.

Rand's attitude toward emotion is important, but it is not very sophisticated. I would suggest reading Damasio, V S Ramachandran and Gazzaniga and all the various neuroscientists with as much care as you do Rand.

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.