About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It seems to me that flourishing (in the sense of living well, or successfully) is the proper goal or morality.  I also have no problem seeing flourishing and life as being equivalent standards of value.  However, I wonder how one should determine whether someone who is flourishing in certain respects but not in others is flourishing in general.  When I looked to Tara Smith's "Viable Values" for a hint as to how to deal with this issue, I found that she thinks that one should determine if such a person is flourishing by looking at whether or not they are flourishing in those aspects of their lives which have the most effect on their survival.  I'm not sure if that is the answer I'm looking for, and I find it hard to see what such a test for flourishing would look like.  I don't want to fall into the trap of thinking that one is flourhihing whenever they feel like they are flourishing either, as that feeling can obviously be misguided.  I was wondering what you guys might think about this issue. 
Thanks,
Chris


Post 1

Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Are you thinking in terms of others, or of yourself [which is the proper]?

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I am reminded of Robinson Crusoe. When he first washed up on the beach his context was such that just avoiding starvation would be 'flourishing' - after all there is a context to flourishing - it isn't done in a vacuum.

Later, he had ingeniously converted his efforts into having a margin of physical safety as well as devices and structures that provide considerable comfort. Surely that was flourishing within the context of what was possible.

I'd also focus on his emotional state, not just in terms of motivation (feeling panicky in the early days - filled with fear over starving would not add to 'flourishing'), but look at the feelings of accomplishment as he succeeded in building a safe existence, and look at the positive feelings psychologists call "flow" that he would experience while deep into productive efforts - flourishing would have to take into account one's emotional state.

If we imagine that other people, friendly sorts, washed ashore from another ship wreck and he developed friendships and a romantic relationship - more dimensions would be added to the context - and he could flourish in them as well (or not).

If we get past the needs of survival, then flourishing is always going to be about how we experience our life - it is the degree of pride, joy, contentment, love, happiness, etc.

There are two areas that allow us to generate greater quantities of positive emotions than all the others combined: Career and Romance. But even these two are totally dependent upon our relationship to ourself - our self-esteem. So, if you aren't in dire need of food, shelter, and your health is adequate, look to raising the level of self-esteem and focus on career and romance. That's my simple take on flourishing as a How-To.

Post 3

Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Your bit reminds me of David Kelley's. He views flourishing not just as surviving but as living far from death.

Jordan

Post 4

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

I haven't read Kelley. But I really liked your phrase, "...living far from death." That's a sweet phrase.

Post 5

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 3:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

I think you've described it simply and accurately. Context is very important. A person's success in handling basic physical needs is not a sufficient measure.

jt

Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Its not unlike Maslow's hierarchy of needs where the most basic are at the bottom and must be filled first, then those the next level up become the new needs to be filled. Successfully working at that next level would be the process of flourishing. We can talk about flourishing as a desired state, a goal, but it is only experienced as a process - not a destination.

Post 7

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,
I like your Robinson Crusoe analogy; I think you hit an important point.
Robert,
I was thinking of the flourishing of the individual agent (the person who is pursuing the flourishing.)


Post 8

Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I like what Steve said about going (or growing) through different levels of needs.

At the bottom of the pyramid of needs, there is the physical need for survival -- and whatever it is that that entails for each kind of living thing. For a plant, these needs might be sunlight, minerals, and water. A "hierarchy of needs" for plants would not be as tall as Maslow's is for humans -- it would have just one or two levels. Also, for humans in early stages (early stages of life or prehistorically-early stages), the hierarchy wouldn't be as tall.

Aristotle spoke about the differences -- differences with regard to "living well" -- of plants, animals, and humans. Growing tall and sprouting leaves are some indication that a plant is "living well" as a plant. So what does it mean to live well as a human? Aristotle said, at least, that humans aren't living well unless they are exercising their rational capacity.

So, what about Christopher's question of evaluating the flourishing of anyone? I propose to look at the person's virtue.

For humans to live well, they need to be value-driven -- going after values in a somewhat-orderly fashion. It's difficult to take stock of the values in someone else's life for at least two reasons -- we're not the valuers of the values in his life (the problem of mind-reading), and he's not necessarily personally-responsible for some of the values in his life (the problem of feeling accomplished, or not -- which is part of flourishing). 

There's the straightforword value-attainment -- the getting of values somehow -- and there's value-attain-ability (the ability to gain value). It is the person's increasing virtue which increases the ability to attain values in life.

Think about someone who doesn't grow much as a person. They don't build much character. They jump from "friend" to "friend" because they're never consistently honest with anyone -- and these "friends" come to understand a lack of trust to and from him (dissolving the friendship, one after another). This man ends up alone and unsuccessful in life. At any given time, it would be easier to look at his character (his virtue) than it would be to look at his values (e.g. friends vs. no friends).

In fact, you can predict his level of value-attainment by looking at his level of virtue (built character).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/25, 8:39am)


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.