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Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism advocate's government protecting one's legal rights. But I wonder how far people here think that mandate goes. For instance, if an alternative method is suggested for protecting or enforcing this or that legal right, then under Objectivism, should the government be permitted to try it outright. Can they sponsor some studies or pay for some pilot programs? Can they make a new agency? And for how long? I'm curious what Objectivist principles play here.

Jordan

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Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Example, please.

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Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Maybe it's me, but I read your question as a subtle advocacy for positive rights.

Rights aren't something that can be "enforced" by law. They can only be protected.  



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Friday, June 19, 2009 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Conceptually, do you mean something like "sales fees" instead of sales tax - the fees entitling enforcement of the sales contract in a court of law. Failure to pay the fee resulting is a simple "buyer beware" with no legal recourse?

jt

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Friday, June 19, 2009 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Steve,

I'd rather not get bogged down in concretes here. But examples abound. JT's example of a "sales fee" is onesuch. Others could include: Whether to punish via fine or jail-time; whether to make certain crimes infractions, misdemeanors, or felonies; whether to use the death penalty or a life sentence. Each of these could be tried right away. Or they could be studied. Or they could have pilot programs (excluding death penalty). Again, I don't have particular concretes in mind, really.

Teresa,

I see why you say that. I don't mean to be advocating anything here. The impetus for the thread comes from a post by JT (?) awhile back (which I've tried and failed to locate), wherein he suggests the government go conduct a study or something in consideration of a potentially more viable method of protecting rights. (I might be totally misconstruing this, JT!) No one took umbrage, which surprised me.

And when I said "enforcing" rights, I had in mind the idea that the legislature creates rights; the executive protects rights; and the judiciary enforces rights. That is, they enforce claims.

Jordan

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Friday, June 19, 2009 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

You said, "Objectivism advocate's government protecting one's legal rights. But I wonder how far people here think that mandate goes. For instance, if an alternative method is suggested for protecting or enforcing this or that legal right, then under Objectivism, should the government be permitted to try it outright. Can they sponsor some studies or pay for some pilot programs? Can they make a new agency? And for how long? I'm curious what Objectivist principles play here."

Objectivism doesn't deal directly with law - except as to parse the relation to ethics and political philosophy. Objectivism sets the standards but stops short of legal philosophy and methodology. Objectivism asks if a law violates an individual right or defines structure that protects individual rights or gives legal definition to an individual right.

The best way to think of the Objectivist's ideal government's laws is that they create the optimal environment for expression of each individual's rights. Government can not protect our rights directly with any efficiency. But by creating the laws, the courts, the police and the military they have structured an environment that, when done correctly, provides for the most individual freedom based upon individual rights. So, does it make sense that there might be some pilot programs? Yes. Sponsor studies? Yes. Make a new agency? Yes. For how long? I don't know, but the guiding principle for answering all of these questions is a cost/benefit optimization that is based upon measure of increases in improvement to individual rights protection. Does this measure result in an environment that better suits individual rights?

When you are talking about legal rights that arise from individual rights, then I have no problem with examining the many possible modes of structuring, administering or enforcing the laws in question. If the cost/benefit ratio of a study of two different ways to approach maximizing the protection of an individual right, then go for it. This would be a matter for political science and legal philosophy. The goal would be to find the legal expression giving the greatest of integrity to the individual right, the most efficacious administration, etc.

Practically speaking, we are a long ways from this kind of methodology since a simple glance at most of the laws is all that is needed to see that they should be tossed out - no pilot programs needed. The one on-going multivariate study is the movement of people and money from one state to another. Voting with their feet. Not an elegant study but sometimes quite dramatic... Hong Kong compared to mainland China, or Berlin before the wall came down, or the flow of jobs out of heavily taxed states like California to business friendly states like Texas.


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Friday, June 19, 2009 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Steve,

Objectivism says *that* law should secure legal rights based on individual rights. But not *How*. Is that a fair way to categorize your view? Rand did discuss a number of laws (e.g., antitrust, discrimination laws, copyright), but it's not a big deal to me whether those fall outside of Objectivism proper. In any case, I appreciate the principle you offered in answer to my question.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 6/20, 12:53pm)


Post 7

Friday, June 19, 2009 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Summarizing my statement, you said, "Objectivism says *that* law should secure legal rights based on individual rights. But not *How*." Yes that is well said - and it is how I see it, but with a caveat.

I would say that political philosophy (part of Objectivism) and ethics (part of Objectivism) and epistemology (part of Objectivism) are applied as underlying principles in working out the *How*. Here is an example: Political philosophy is where the 'rule' that individual rights must be represented as laws in order to create a nation of laws so that their is a structure where power is limited - making practical concretes out of theory and ideals. Epistemology is aiding those who work in legal philosophy to work out the rules of evidence - epistemology principles being the tools used by legal philosophers to determine how a court can know what is true. The principles they work out live in legal philosophy and are used to create the actual laws on evidence. Ethics sets the goals and set the purposes. Each law that can't trace back through it's intellectual geneology to the goal it derives from, would need to be tossed out or modified. All ideas should be able to trace their roots back to ideas in philosophy.

Knowledge is hierarchical. We draw lines to separate areas. Objectivism is a brand of philosophy. Philosophy holds the principles of metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, political philosophy, etc. It can be logical to apply one of the principles in those areas of philosophy to a situation in another area, like the law. Epistemology can be applied to reasoning used to establish a law. It isn't a statement about the law, but about the epistemological nature of the reasoning. Ethics can be applied a law to argue that it does or does not support an individual right.

I don't feel like I've been very clear on this. Do you have any gray-area cases in mind to explore this?

Post 8

Friday, June 19, 2009 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

If i understand our last post correctly, you are saying that laws need to be consistent with philosophy (ethics, epistemology).

Jordan,

I don't recall which thread you're referring to, but I've generally been of the opinion that if government were properly - viz. stringently, constitutionally - restricted as to the degree and type of regulations it could make, that good regulations could be written - i.e. regulations, per se, should not be dismissed out of hand as an automatic evil. Rules are already developed in the private sector to establish 'best practices' . I think codifying hard earned lessons as regulation has a logical basis and place in the scheme of things - in essence, can be seen as rational self interest.

Of course, my opinion is in the minority.

jt

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I understood your view the same way JT did. I think you said it well. It's still surprising because it makes the Objectivist government sort of broader than I'd imagined.

Jordan

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