About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've noticed lately that Russia seems to be warning us away from further attempts at socialism and at least attempting to promote some sort of freer market within their own borders. Even if its a ploy it seems a pretty interesting step. That brings me to my point. Is the current foolishness a necessary thing? We've been drifting toward socialism for a while, but its always been "It hasn't worked because of X group" or whatever. Does the country need to experience the full folly of this course to begin back in the other direction?

Post 1

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
We drift towards Socialism because too many people just don't want to think, and because those we elect to do our thinking for us quickly come to believe that they know better than we, how to spend our money. Probably, it is in the nature of government to grow, just for these reasons. The only possible protection is a stronger constitution. Unfortunately, elected officials seem to feel justified in re-writing our constitution to suit their personal views.

jt

Post 2

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It is not so much not wanting to think as not knowing the true value of thinking - that is, it is taught almost as a necessary evil [indeed, with an admonishment to 'not think too much', as if one could], so most do it as a human course of events, but not understand its humanness in so doing, always being told to ply it with emotions [emotional 'intelligence'] as if they're naturally in opposition to each other... thinking, tho a necessity, is a skill to be learned in order to do well - but to do well means being an individualist, to think for oneself - a selfishness, and those who so do are not so easily ruled, another bane of those in power...

Post 3

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thats related to my point. Do you think the current difficulties and probable future disasters are needed to shock people out of the attitudes you are describing? To truly drive home the knowledge that these are dead end ideologies.

Post 4

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Only if those points articulated - otherwise the ignorance continues and the 'common sense' unintegratedness will fail to grasp the lesson to be learned...

Post 5

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ryan,

In answer to your question, yes, we may need to experience the full folly of socialism before beginning back in the other direction. Before politics change, the culture has to change. Before the culture changes, intellectuals (i.e., Edmund Burke's "good men") have to produce something of spiritual value.

In her book, "For the New Intellectual", Rand spoke of two kinds of Producers of value: the businessman (material producer) and the intellectual (spiritual producer). Here are good quotes from Rand describing how American intellectuals have basically dropped the ball, and how experiencing the full folly of socialism -- before beginning back in the other direction -- is likely how things will have to pan out (considering our country's current culture):

The intellectual carries the application of philosophical principles to every field of human endeavor. He sets a society’s course by transmitting ideas from the “ivory tower” of the philosopher to the university professor—to the writer—to the artist—to the newspaperman—to the politician—to the movie maker—to the night-club singer—to the man in the street. The intellectual’s specific professions are in the field of the sciences that study man, the so-called “humanities,” but for that very reason his influence extends to all other professions. Those who deal with the sciences studying nature have to rely on the intellectual for philosophical guidance and information: for moral values, for social theories, for political premises, for psychological tenets and, above all, for the principles of epistemology, that crucial branch of philosophy which studies man’s means of knowledge and makes all other sciences possible.

[The intellectuals] are a group that holds a unique prerogative: the potential of being either the most productive or the most parasitical of all social groups.

The intellectuals serve as guides, as trend-setters, as the transmission belts or middlemen between philosophy and the culture. ...

From the early nineteenth century on, American intellectuals—with very rare exceptions—were the humbly obedient followers of European philosophy, which had entered its age of decadence. Accepting its fundamentals, they were unable to deal with or even to grasp the nature of this country.



... prior to the birth of capitalism, the men of the intellect—the philosophers, the teachers, the writers, the early scientists—were men without a profession, that is: without a socially recognized position, without a market, without a means of earning a livelihood. Intellectual pursuits had to depend on the accident of inherited wealth or on the favor and financial support of some wealthy protector. And wealth was not earned on an open market, either; wealth was acquired by conquest, by force, by political power, or by the favor of those who held political power. Tradesmen were more vulnerably and precariously dependent on favor than the intellectuals.

The professional businessman and the professional intellectual came into existence together, as brothers born of the industrial revolution. Both are the sons of capitalism—and if they perish, they will perish together. The tragic irony will be that they will have destroyed each other; and the major share of the guilt will belong to the intellectual.


--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/intellectuals.html

Ed

p.s. As you may well know, Jeff (one intellectual) has taken up a personal project of the Atlas Shrugged Book Campaign in order to try to prevent this from happening to our country.

I (another intellectual) have taken up a personal project of debunking the foundational part of The Communist Manifesto (the first 12 pages of Ch. 1) in order to try and stop this from happening to our country.

A large part of the problem is that Ivory Tower liberals feel morally justified in advancing socialism. A large part of that moral justification that they feel -- and a large part of what they draw on when they cunningly trick the public into socialistic mindsets -- stems from the faulty reasoning found in The Communist Manifesto; specifically the first 12 pages of Chapter 1: "Bourgeois and Proletarians"

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 9:26am)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ryan,

The pendulum always swings. We don't need it to swing all the way to socialism for it eventually to swing back to freer markets. People inevitably get disgruntled with their situation, blame the situation, and tilt toward a contrasting alternative.

Jordan

Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Obama and crew are using the economic crisis to usher in the change to socialism - because they know that getting people to change, or even to accept change requires that fear. The other side of that same coin is that the pain and fear of the actual loss of freedom can also motivate people to rise up against congress demand a return to a constitutional government.

The constitution could be improved... no doubt. But no change in wording, no matter how perfect, would help if the people don't demand that their representatives and judges live up to it. In the end it is the self-esteem, the political understanding, and the emotional motivation to take action that determine if large political changes occur.

Post 8

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The US was founded by capitalists, and we have been breeding socialists since then.

Wealth redistribution rewards failure and punishes productivity, breeds more socialists and failure. In a democracy where majority wins and votes count the same no matter whether a person is in debt... this holds until we reach a point where the willing productive become too few in numbers versus the failures and the failures really start to die off. Holds true, because the failures become the majority.

In my opinion the most reasonable prediction is that the US will become as socialist as Great Britain, Spain, or France. In the very long run, somewhere around the middle political spectrum of Europe. We were founded by capitalists, and they were sucked dry of them -- yet they have still achieved their current level of mixed economy.

People move by feet much faster than minds change, no?

Post 9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan I sanctioned your post. There seems to have always been this trend of a swinging political pendulum in this country. Hopefully it will swing back to freer markets, and hopefully soon.

Dean the points you bring up in your post reminds me of this Margaret Thatcher quote:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

Post 10

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John- Great Thatcher quote.

Ed - I'm with Jordan on this. We shouldn't just let it swing all the way to Socialism. People in power fight to stay in power. If allowed to become the policy by default (voters too lazy to fight), these same government incompetents would rather see everything collapse before admitting the moral bankruptcy of their practices (maybe not even then).

jt

Post 11

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, John. Nice quote. -Jordan

Post 12

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jay,

I actually agree with you (and Jordan).

I wasn't saying we should let the pendulum swing all the way, I (like Jeff) am doing something directed at trying to stop it. I said there's a good chance we'll fail (for the very reasons you mention).

Ed


Post 13

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The swinging pendulum metaphor is often misleading. What is the period of the swing? Are we talking about the historically short swings of 8 to 12 years, measured mostly in shifts of which party acquires power? Or longer periods where we talk about Ancient Greece, the Founding Fathers, Obama... I'm not sure we can find a period with any regularity, and I am sure we shouldn't let ourselves be seduced into a metaphor where culture is viewed as determined by laws separate from psychology and human choice.

I only say this because the more it seems like a pendulum metaphor works, the less focus we are likely to put on interrupting the trend we don't like.

I'd rather be looking for things we can influence, and metaphors that fall more along the lines of "tipping points," "viral memes," "positive feedback loops" or any other metaphor that encourages us to do things like tea parties, publicizing going Galt, etc.

Post 14

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't believe recognizing political trends and changes to those trends should mean one is less likely to take action to interrupt a current trend. That's certainly not the case for me, I'll be sure to vote against any Democratic candidate in the next election. It's more of a recognition of some optimistic hope that it's been hellish before, but times can get better. And yeah, I had more in mind the kind of pendulum swing in contemporary American politics, but I can't speak for the others. For example Carter was a Socialist, and Reagan took his place and times were better. What's wrong with recognizing that?

And before scolding the rest of us for being complacent, why don't you tell us what you're doing to interrupt this current political trend?






(Edited by John Armaos on 4/01, 10:51am)


Post 15

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"...scolding the rest of us..."? Who me?

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 16

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One possible explanation for pendulum effects is the existence of a false dichotomy. Neither side works, so we swing away from side towards another, but it also doesn't work. Swinging away from socialism doesn't mean swinging towards a free-market. In fact, most people view politics as either favoring rich over poor, or poor over rich. Both sides demand government intervention, but the beneficiaries change from time to time. If that's the case, which way are we swinging matters little, as more government is always the solution.

Post 17

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe,

"Neither side works, so we swing away from side towards another, but it also doesn't work."
Work to accomplish what?

"Swinging away from socialism doesn't mean swinging towards a free-market. In fact, most people view politics as either favoring rich over poor, or poor over rich."
That doesn't make sense to me. Well, sure, you can have corruption in stealing from productive to give to poor, or stealing from productive to give to rich. But I would say that neither is swinging away from socialism, there is the same amount of government intervention.

"Both sides demand government intervention, but the beneficiaries change from time to time."
Yea I guess I just agreed with you for that case, where the beneficiaries of the corruption change.

"If that's the case, which way are we swinging matters little, as more government is always the solution."
Now this doesn't make any sense to me. You are switching from the case where the amount of corruption doesn't change, to where the amount of corruption (err wealth redistribution from the productive) increases, which is an increase in socialism.

So whats your point? : P

Cheers,
Dean

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 18

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

My point about false dichotomies was a wider point. Whenever there are false dichotomies, you see people rejecting one half for the other, even though the other is just as bad. I wrote an article a bit back about how a dichotomy between sex is dirty if it isn't for procreation and pure hedonism is a false dichotomy. And if people feel they have to choose one or the other, they swing from one bad option to another. Or to put it another way, they may be swinging away from one option, but what they think is the opposite is just as flawed.

Talking about the socialism to free-markets, I think many people don't view it this way. They see government as being pro-business or pro-people. So the government is always looting at the expense of one or the other. But this doesn't imply for a minute that the corruption (or level of government interference) is constant. More likely, each swing requires more government intervention than the last time. The false dichotomy changes the beneficiaries, and that's the apparent "pendulum". But the degree of government intervention is a separate matter.

Just look at Republicans vs Democrats in office. They change the focus of their efforts as they alternate, but government interference has been generally rising.

What's my point? If there's a belief that the pendulum swings between free-markets and socialism, where's the proof? More likely you swing away from one bad things (George W Bush), and swing towards a different bad things (BO). And that's what we should expect if those two are viewed as polar opposites. If a libertarian leaning president is not viewed as even a possibility, you're really swing between to forms of Statism. And each swing pushes you further towards Statism in general.



Post 19

Thursday, April 2, 2009 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
An offhand visual analogy (after 2 cups of coffee):
It's like a tiny pendulum hanging loosely on a clothes-line slanted down toward statism -- even when the pendulum swings backwards towards freedom, that very motion disturbs the loose connection point (to the clothesline) and the whole pendulum slides forward toward statism anyway. In fact, more motion in the pendulum would lead it to slip down the line even faster!

Solution:
Get off the slanted clothes-line.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/02, 8:38am)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.