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Post 80

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

With respect, the issue isn't being addressed. This -
My property rights do not give me the right to violate your rights.
- begs the question. Which rights are waivable and which are inalienable upon entering your land? You won't violate the rights that I leave at your doorstep. And it's not like all my rights are inalienable. Hell, if that were the case, I could never contract.

Jordan


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Post 81

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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"Ted, I'm not sure I'm following you. I would think that precedent is only valuable when it can be backed up by objective principles. A mixed system that only has a half-assed history of respect for rights is going to have a lot of precedent that we simply shouldn't consider useful or correct. We now have a precedent for antitrust legislation and litigation. We have a precedent for environmental issues that seems chronically broken. Our country was started by "armchair" lawyers and philosophers who decided that the precedent of their ruling gov't was a load of bullshit and didn't make sense. Your example of brain surgery or aerodynamics doesn't fit. I trust professionals in those matters because the body of knowledge has been painstakingly built through scientific process and tested by experiment. Our body of law was neither built nor tested in this manner. Its a cobbled together construction that is pretty haphazardly tested and altered at the whims of whatever group can grab enough power in the judiciary."

Almost otally wrong, Ryan. Common Law is on the order of two millennia old. It is based on repeated experiment, trial and error. The reason we retain such concepts as attractive nuisance and right of way and have done away with such concepts as trial by combat is due to the long buildup of experience. Common law is the codified experience of long legal experiment.

The system of law of the United States is common law. the founders did not overthrow it. Indeed, our revolt against the King was justified because of the established right of the taxed to consent to taxation in the legislature. We did not "decide that precedent was bullshit." We objected to the King's tyranny which violated precedent. Read the Declaration of Independence. It does not argue that monarchy is foolish because virtue is not hereditary. It argues that the King had abrogated and usurped a long line of rights that were established precedents.

There have been revolutions run by armchair philosophers, namely the French and Russian Revolutions, each of which threw out established precedent entirely, and rewrote everything down to the calendar. Our revolution was run by sober, established, educated men, not pamphleteers. John Adams had been a lawyer for the British Crown. Washington was a surveyor, general, state legislator, and the manager of his own and his wife's estates covering some 100 square kilometers of land. I am sure you know the establishment credentials of Franklin and Jefferson and Hamilton. The armchair philosopher among the group was Thomas Paine. He led a life of scandal, was fired for incompetence, fled Britain for America and America for France. Yes, he wrote nice emotional pamphlets that did well to inspire support for the revolution. He did not write the constitution (which was based on long study and deep knowledge of English precedent and Roman Law) nor did he ever hold any office of trust in the US. The consummate armchair expert, not speaking a word of French, he took a seat in the French revolutionary legislature, only to see the king beheaded and himself imprisoned. He had argued not for the respect of established rights, but for the overthrow of the established order, and he got what he asked for.

Please note that I am not arguing against Objectivist principle. I am saying that principles are applied in context, and to protect real concretes which are prior to principle. Common law is precisely a system derived from long experiment. There is absolutely no reason for a person not to argue for his principles or to change the law. But the way to do this effectively is to study the large body of legal concepts and principles that do exist. Indeed, such abominations as anti-trust are not based upon established precedent, but upon new principles invented out of whole cloth. Our basic system of traditional law is not some cobbled together mess. It is a tried and true system within which thinkers such as John Locke have worked, and which it would be foolishness to abandon or ignore.


Post 82

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, food for thought, I can't comment there without a little further cognition. Do you consider the current state of the law to be adequate? State of the art, as it were. How are the traditions and precedents different than all the other barbaric things man has traditionaly done
Jordan, I'm not sure that there is any clearer way to put it than "There is no such thing as the right to violate rights". I do not determine other's rights by fiat at my property line. I expect them to comply with our shared right to determine use of our own property. Sure, a person could set whatever odd standard or price for use of property. The user has the option to agree or not enter the property. Voluntarily. If the owner's criteria for use change, the user can agree or leave. If there is some sort of implied or overt threat or deception involved, then we are in the realm of crime. No rights are "waived". The owner has the sole right to determine use of his property and ONLY HIS PROPERTY. Not the lives, bodies, or property of others he has allowed onto his property. He might ask for the use of those things as a TRADE for use of his property, but thats it.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 2/08, 1:06pm)


Post 83

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

You're still not addressing the issue. You believe you've stated your view as clearly as possible. I cannot make the issue that I'd like you to address clearer. We are at impasse.

Jordan


Post 84

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, you caught me while editing the above. I think your view of rights is incorrect. Rights by nature ARE inalienable. Just because you agree or contract to perform ACTIONS that you have the right to do or not do, doesnt mean you have waived the underlying right. Agreeing not to speak doesnt waive your right to free speech. Agreeing to give me property doesnt waive your right to dispose of your property.

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Post 85

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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This is a follow-up on my post 54 and Jon and Luke's reply.

Jon: My Aunt and Uncle were indeed my guardians. I know my Aunt thought a leash was a good idea! My Uncle and I were great buddies.

Luke: Perhaps I should clarify the context a little more. I am not stupid, I had no desire to be shot or eaten by someones dogs. I mentioned some of the private land was fenced, some not. I reconnoitered carefully before choosing my path. I picked unfenced land to cross, I stuck close to the property line between properties and as far away from buildings or vehicles as possible. I made sure there were no dogs. I made no attempt to hide myself but strode purposefully (not "wandered") in the direction of the road that was my goal. I carried a backpack, I was a small and bespectacled (I graduated from high school at 5' 6" and about 125 lbs). Make a difference? Ha! I'm sure not!

Here's is what I believe is most certainly not at odds with "Objectivist" philosophy: reason trumps rights. If by acting in an unreasonable manner to "teach someone a lesson" you purposely cause grievous harm to one who has no intent to harm you I'm fine with a judge throwing you in a can and throwing away the key. As far as the admonition to "keep your kids on a short leash", I think you are doing the world a favor by not having kids.

Post 86

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Mike, The statement that "reason trumps rights" comes as a shock to me, but not nearly as much as that you would believe that that is the objectivist view. My reading indicates that reason is held as our sole means of attaining knowledge. It seems to follow that our knowledge of our own nature and rights flow from reason. How can the capacity to discover truths trump the truths that we have discovered by that capacity?
I agree that if a man were omniscient, with the full knowledge that THIS kid in front of me means no harm, then of course its excessive and immoral just to gun the kid down to prove a point. However, in the real world, a person has no idea if the kid is just some normal kid or a threat. The only way to know for sure is to present yourself to them and ask. If you're wrong and it is someone who potentially means harm, the threat has increased greatly. How do you justify the burden of the owner to increase his own risk on his own land because SOME people that trespass mean no harm. By what standard or inexplicable reason that transcends "standards" is that an acceptable burden, but the trespasser just can't be bothered to find out who owns the land and simply ASK for the ok to wander? A procedure that entails no danger to anyone and allows no misunderstanding.
Not to mention that the bulk of the discussion hasn't had anything to do with "teaching someone a lesson". Its been about the perceived burden of a property owner to protect non-dangerous trespassers from unmanned defensive constructions, and related issues.

Post 87

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, I think it would be more productive if you published a full article detailing carefully your view on this topic and reconciling it with Objectivist principles. Perhaps you can even refer to Mossoff and other Objectivist scholars in the process. All this back and forth, tit for tat argumentation seems to go nowhere after a while and becomes unproductive. Certainly I am growing weary of explaining myself only to have others "but" into my articulations. I have not changed my mind about any statement I have uttered on this thread.

As for "protecting children" or even bearing them, I offer a number to the tune of "Born Free" in honor of Mike:

Childfree, as free as the wind blows
As free as the grass grows
Childfree to follow your heart

Live free and beauty surrounds you
The world still astounds you
Each time you look at a star

Stay free, where no walls divide you
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

Childfree, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're childfree

(Stay free, where no walls divide you)
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

Childfree, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're childfree


Parents, keep your kids on a short leash.

Jordan, given your license and practice as an attorney, I expect a full treatment posted as an article, not a continued General Forum harangue. Post a well-reasoned, fully fleshed article for us that we can chew. Until then, I cannot consider this discussion the best use of my time. Whether you think I have "addressed" your issues or not, in the end, matters less than you clarifying your own views with a solid, well-researched, formal RoR article.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/09, 6:03am)


Post 88

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 3:44pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Rights are principles derived from reason applied to man's nature. The application of these principles are contextual and require the application of reason. Reason is primary.
Question: How many John Galts as children would be leashed?

Objectivism:

Metaphysics: Objective Reality
Epistemology: Reason
Ethics: Self-interest
Politics: Capitalism

Luke: 'quit yer bitchin' and build a fence. Or else, "harm a child, go to jail".

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Post 89

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Common Law is on the order of two millennia old. It is based on repeated experiment, trial and error. The reason we retain such concepts as attractive nuisance and right of way and have done away with such concepts as trial by combat is due to the long buildup of experience. Common law is the codified experience of long legal experiment.


That obviously sounds nice in theory Ted, but by no means does common law in the history of this country yielded the best results through trial and error. And the founding fathers did not place all of their trust into common law. As Ryan points out there are many judicial precedents that are used to adjudicate cases today that are simply immoral precedents. Yet they are upheld simply because they are precedents, as if precedent must mean intrinsically moral. However I do think there is some usefulness to precedents in keeping some order to the judicial process to inferior courts, if inferior courts did not have to follow precedent, you could have conflicting judicial decisions within the same jurisdiction. Supreme Courts do not need to follow precedent, (state and federal level) and I would agree with this process, as there is at least some recourse to overturning what could be an immoral precedent.

Post 90

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,
Thanks for the Objectivism 101 declaration, I'm familiar with it.
Question: How many John Galts as children would be leashed?
Answer: As many as their parents decided needed protection from a world that owes them nothing except to respect their rights.

I think you are evading the question, or possibly just cut/pasting while throwing jibes at luke. What about Objectivism has given you the impression that rights are subjective? It seems like thats what you are saying. You're right in that principles are applied to situations through the use of reason.

Reasoning would involve cognition to the effect that property rights are based on objective principles, and that individuals who can't yet or are unable to understand and respect those rights have GUARDIANS who are responsible for teaching such things or supervising those people so that other's rights are respected. If they blow off their responsibilities it is THEIR FAILURE that is at the root of any accidents that might occur.

Using reason to apply principles to situations doesn't go like this
"Awww, them kids is harmless and they won't mean nothin by anything if they Vi-o-late them property rights of yours. I reckon we ought to jes use that there guvmint to force you to worry bout my younguns on your land. Hell, someone has to. I sure as hell can't be bothered to giveum learnin, watchem, or give you the respect of simply asking permission."

Reason cannot be used to arrive at objective principles, and then magically render those objective principles plastic and malleable. If you think it can, please post the full process you used to reason that out.

"Thus, for every individual, a right is a moral sanction of a positive- of his freedom to act on his OWN JUDGEMENT, for his OWN GOALS, by his OWN VOLUNTARY, UNCOERCED CHOICE. AS TO HIS NEIGHBORS, his rights impose NO OBLIGATIONS on them except of a negative kind: TO ABSTAIN FROM VIOLATING HIS RIGHTS." (ayn rand, Virtue of selfishness, pg 110) (bold mine)

BTW, If your right to use and dispose of your property is subservient to my child's wants and needs, please explain how your money isn't?


Post 91

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Do you even understand what "context" means? Are you even trying to understand my point? Is it difficult to understand that FIRST you put up a sign, THEN you build a fence, THEN sometime later with provocation you resort to deadly force. Please try to sort out your enemies from those who have no desire to harm you or your property.

You do not deserve a further reply from me. I am tired of stupid insults from people who don't want to think.

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Post 92

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Lol, I take it that you wont be explaining that reasoning. I'm making every attempt to understand any view presented. The problem is vague allusions to some sort of hyper-cognitive reasoning isnt a reasoned argument. Compulsory "no trespass" signs are just as ridiculous as making me where a shirt that says "Don't kick the crap out of me". I have a right to not have those things happen, and I dont have to do anything to make super sure everyone knows it.
Yes, I know what context means. Do you understand that without infallible knowledge the context will be a little unclear? That the only sure way to keep bad accidents from happening in murkey and frightening situations is to RESPECT THAT PROPERTY LINE.

Post 93

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ryan,

Yeah, we cross-posted. So in your view, all rights are inalienable. That alone might be worth a new thread. I take that position as highly untenable. When you (lawfully) contract not to do something, you *have* waived the underlying right to do it. If we agree that I pay you $5 for you to remain silent, then you have indeed waived the right to speak unless speech is the type of action that cannot for some reason be alienated.

Hi Luke,

I've not written an article for RoR before. I'll take your suggestion under submission. Is it permissible to write one under just my first name? It's not like my last name is hard to figure out; it's just that I don't want to wind up in an untoward google search.

Jordan

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Post 94

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, That is not my understanding. If you pay me not to speak, you're paying me for the service of not exercising my rights in a certain way. The right to free speech is still there, ive just bartered away its application for a period of time.

Post 95

Sunday, February 8, 2009 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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I'll post a new thread.

Post 96

Monday, February 9, 2009 - 6:14amSanction this postReply
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Jordan wrote:

I've not written an article for RoR before. I'll take your suggestion under submission. Is it permissible to write one under just my first name? It's not like my last name is hard to figure out; it's just that I don't want to wind up in an untoward google search.

Try posting an article under just your first name. Teresa Summerlee Isanhart is the editor. Talk to her. I also suggest contacting The Association for Objective Law for guidance. Also consider searching for articles by Adam Mossoff, Amy Peikoff, and Dana Berliner, all Objectivists who practice law as licensed attorneys.

Ryan wrote:

Awww, them kids is harmless and they won't mean nothin by anything if they Vi-o-late them property rights of yours. I reckon we ought to jes use that there guvmint to force you to worry bout my younguns on your land. Hell, someone has to. I sure as hell can't be bothered to giveum learnin, watchem, or give you the respect of simply asking permission."

Yes, that's a correct interpretation of how the law works now as far as I can tell, immoral though it may be.

John wrote:

And the founding fathers did not place all of their trust into common law. As Ryan points out there are many judicial precedents that are used to adjudicate cases today that are simply immoral precedents. Yet they are upheld simply because they are precedents, as if precedent must mean intrinsically moral.

Exactly!

Mike wrote:

Luke: 'quit yer bitchin' and build a fence. Or else, "harm a child, go to jail".

This is an immoral demand on your part.

Parents, keep your kids on a short leash.

Is there any point to continuing this exchange?

Post 97

Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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On the founders' real education in law; Washington, Jefferson and Adams, and their familiarity with Roman civil and English common law:

An excerpt from:

AMERICAN MJIJTARY LAW IN THE LIGHT OF
THE FIRST MUTINY ACT’S TRICENTENNIAL*
by Colonel Frederick Bernays Wiener, AUS (Retired)* *

II. THE BEGINNINGS OF AMERICAN
MILITARY LAW
It is now time to cross the Atlantic and to turn to 1775, the year
of Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill, the year when the Continen-
tal Congress selected George Washington to command “the forces
raiased or to be raised for the defense of American liberty,”29 the
year when William Tudor became the first “Judge Advocate of the
Army.’ ’30
Let it always be remembered, as we approach this part of the nar-
rative, that the leaders of the American Revolution were really not
very revolutionary after all. To begin with, they retained the English
language. Unlike the Irish Free State a century and a half later, they
did not mark their new found freedom by opting for Gaelic. Nor did
they seek to substitute any other language for their mother tongue.
Next, they retained the common law. Not until Louisiana was ac-
quired by treaty in 1803 was there ever any vestige of civil law on
American soil, nor until the Southwest was taken from Mexico in
1848 was the doctrine of community property recognized anywhere
in the United States. Third, they retained the English system of
representative government, one that continues nationally as well as
in all of today’s fifty states. And, finally, they adopted virtually ver-
batim the British system of military law.
Americans had become acquainted with the British system in the
course of the four colonial wars against the French. Washington
himself, while Colonel of the First Virginia Regiment, had presided
over at least one general ~ourt-martial,~~ and as commanding officer
of that unit had meted out what today would be deemed extremely
harsh discipline. His deserters were hanged in preference to being
shot, on the view that hemp carried a sterner warning than lead.32
Within a fortnight after making Washington their general, Congress
enacted a set of Articles of War.33 But after some experience under
that code, Washington considered that legislation insufficient and
urged adoption of a more drastic Accordingly, Congress refer-
red the problem to a committee of five, of which John Adams and
Thomas Jefferson were members.35 Here is how Adams later recall-
ed the Committee’s work:
It was a very difficult and unpopular Subject: and I observed
to Jefferson, that Whatever Alteration We should report with
the least Ennergy in it, or the least tendency to a necessary
discipline of the Army, would be opposed with as much
Vehemence as if it were the most perfect: We might as well
therefore report a compleat System at once and let it meet its
fate. Some thing perhaps might be gained. There was extant
one System of Articles of War, which had carried two Empires
to the head of Mankind, the Roman And the British: for the
British Articles of War were only a litteral Translation of the
Roman: it would be in vain for Us to seek, in our own Inven-
tions or the Records of Warlike nations for a more compleat
System of military discipline: it was an Observation founded
in undoubted facts that the Prosperity of Nations had been in
proportion to the discipline of their forces by Sea and Land:
I was therefore for reporting the British Articles of War, totidem
Verbis. Jefferson in those days never failed to agree with me,
in every Thing of a political nature, and he very cordially agreed
in this. The British Articles of War were Accordingly reported
and defended in Congress, by me Assisted by some others, and
finally carried.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 2/10, 4:52pm)


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