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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 5:53amSanction this postReply
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Hello everybody.

My name is Jack Garcia and I recently joined this board. I also recently (in the last year) personally discovered Ayn Rand, and Atlas Shrugged (plus Nathaniel Branden and The Six Pillars of Self Esteem, which has been extremely valuable to me).

I like most of what I find in Objectivism. It simply "clicks" to my way of thinking.

Anyway, without rambling on I would like to ask if anyone is aware of an Objectivist-related treatment of Descartes and his Meditations? I have done some searching via Google and this forum as best I have been able to but have turned up nothing.

I had to read Descartes recently for a class (I'm in a college Intro to Philosophy course and we are starting with Descartes), and after that I kept reading about him.

A lot of what he says strikes me as really, really wrong, such as in the first meditation when he says, "I shall now doubt the efficacy of my mind" (paraphrased)...but I have been unable to find a comprehensive take or review on him and his ideas from an Objectivst or Objectivsm-inspired viewpoint.

Ideas?

Short of that, what are your opinions regarding the topic?

I hope everybody is well,
Jack

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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Glad you could join us.

Briefly, Rand and the people around her were not among his fans.  Quite insightful of you to pick up on this.  In the lead essay of For the New Intellectual, she objects to the cogito argument on the grounds that awareness can only be awareness of an object (which is part of what "Objectivism" means), so that to start with awareness and deduce the existence of objects from it is to reverse things disastrously.  The reply to this in turn might be that D was not really preaching this, only supposing it as a thought experiment.

Peikoff, as I understand him from second-hand accounts, says in addition that "doubt" only has meaning if you have some notion of how to resolve or correct it, so that D's universal doubt is meaningless, a "stolen concept" in Objectivist jargon.  This in turn could be a comeback to the thought-experiment suggestion.

If you go to http://www.aynrandbookstore2.com/searchprods.asp and search on "Descartes" you'll find several (quite expensive) audios for sale on the topic.


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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Fred Seddon, who is a philosophy professor and a member of this forum, gave a 3-part talk on Descartes' Meditations at the most recent Atlas Society Summer Seminar. Maybe he will give you some slides or lecture notes. They may not contain much of Fred's ample humor, but still worth a look.

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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome, Jack.

Please fill out your user profile. (I am the user profile maven)

The problem with Descartes is that he uses a "stolen concept." He assumes that one can know what doubt is, without already knowing what certainty is. I would strongly suggest reading Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology It is a very difficult, but extremely rewarding book. And it is much more profound and useful than the Meditations. I got an 'A' on my Descrates thesis. I didn't cite Rand, but I used ItOE as my only real source. You should have heard the professor shriek when I stayed after class and asked her if she had read Rand.

Welcome to RoR.



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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you all! I will fill out my user profile when I figure out how. (I'm still getting used to this site!) :)

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Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Jack,

From the Ayn Rand Lexicon:

Prior Certainty of Consciousness
 
Descartes began with the basic epistemological premise of every Witch Doctor (a premise he shared explicitly with Augustine): “the prior certainty of consciousness,” the belief that the existence of an external world is not self-evident, but must be proved by deduction from the contents of one’s consciousness —which means: the concept of consciousness as some faculty other than the faculty of perception—which means: the indiscriminate contents of one’s consciousness as the irreducible primary and absolute, to which reality has to conform. What followed was the grotesquely tragic spectacle of philosophers struggling to prove the existence of an external world by staring, with the Witch Doctor’s blind, inward stare, at the random twists of their conceptions—then of perceptions—then of sensations.
When the medieval Witch Doctor had merely ordered men to doubt the validity of their mind, the philosophers’ rebellion against him consisted of proclaiming that they doubted whether man was conscious at all and whether anything existed for him to be conscious of.
 
 “For the New Intellectual,” For the New Intellectual, 173.
 
Also, from the Lexicon, and following up on Ted's bit:
 
"Stolen Concept," Fallacy of

Observe that Descartes starts his system by using “error” and its synonyms or derivatives as “stolen concepts.”
Men have been wrong, and therefore, he implies, they can never know what is right. But if they cannot, how did they ever discover that they were wrong? How can one form such concepts as “mistake” or “error” while wholly ignorant of what is correct? “Error” signifies a departure from truth; the concept of “error” logically presupposes that one has already grasped some truth. If truth were unknowable, as Descartes implies, the idea of a departure from it would be meaningless.
The same point applies to concepts denoting specific forms of error. If we cannot ever be certain that an argument is logically valid, if validity is unknowable, then the concept of “invalid” reasoning is impossible to reach or apply. If we cannot ever know that a man is sane, then the concept of “insanity” is impossible to form or define. If we cannot recognize the state of being awake, then we cannot recognize or conceptualize a state of not being awake (such as dreaming). If man cannot grasp X, then “non-X” stands for nothing.

 Leonard Peikoff, “‘Maybe You’re Wrong,’”
The Objectivist Forum, April 1981, 9.

Jordan
 
 


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Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Garcia,

 

Welcome.

 

In addition to the paragraph in “For the New Intellectual” quoted above, Rand wrote the following in Atlas Shrugged:

The choice is still open to be a human being, but the price is to start from scratch, to stand naked in the face of reality and, reversing a costly historical error, to declare: ‘I am, therefore I’ll think’. (1058)

 

Proof presupposes existence, consciousness, and a complex chain of knowledge: the existence of something to know, of a consciousness able to know it, and of a knowledge that has learned to distinguish between such concepts as the proved and the unproved.

 

When [an interlocutor] declares that existence must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of nonexistence . . . .

 

When he declares that an axiom is a matter of arbitrary choice and he doesn’t choose to accept the axiom that he exists, he blanks out the fact that he has accepted it by uttering that sentence . . . .

 

[In addition to its other features,] an axiom is a proposition that defeats its opponents by the fact that they have to accept it and use it in the process of any attempt to deny it. . . . Let the witchdoctor who does not choose to accept the validity of sensory perception try to prove it without using the data he obtained by sensory perception . . . . (1039–40)

Tibor Machan observes in “Evidence of Necessary Existence” (1992):

Whereas Descartes claimed to discover the cogito as his starting point simply by examining his ideas until he found one that is rationally undeniable, Rand holds that we somehow learn her axioms from experience. It is only after we draw the axioms from experience that we show that they are rationally undeniable. (35)

David Kelley writes in The Evidence of the Senses (1986):

Consider, for example, the first Meditation. Descartes begins by seeking any grounds for doubting the truth of his ideas—i.e., for doubting that they stem from and correspond to reality. The first such grounds he finds—sensory illusions and dreams—are actual occurrences, and in these cases we know that reality is not what it seems. For that reason, however, these occurrences could not raise the general question whether reality exists beyond our ideas; to identify an experience as an illusion, one must have enough knowledge of the objective facts to know that he is misperceiving them. Descartes therefore rests his case for universal doubt on the hypothesis that an evil demon may be deceiving him about everything. But what sort of ground for doubt is this? Illusions and dreams actually occur, but demons do not—the hypothesis is pure invention. As such, it would be completely subjective and could not provide an objective reason for doubting anything. Then why does Descartes suggest the hypothesis? It can only be as a way of concretizing a possibility he has already accepted: that everything we are aware of exists merely as the representational content of our ideas, ideas that do not, because they are modes of consciousness, depend on anything outside consciousness and could therefore be put into our minds by an evil demon even if there were nothing outside consciousness. In accepting this possibility, Descartes is clearly presupposing the theory of ideas presented later in the Meditations. (15)

 Stephen


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Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Welcome to the forum, Jack!

I hope you plan to keep posting thoughts from your philosophy class. As a former college student and former teacher in vocational college -- I love the learning environment. It's cool what we can learn from looking at learning itself.

Ed


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Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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What I can add here is that Hume showed that it is not possible to reason to the outside world if you start with your "internal" impressions or sensations.

Other folks here show how wrong it is on principle -- to do what Descartes did. I just showed how it is specifically wrong -- because it leads to philosophic solipsism, extistential fatalism/nihilism, and consequent physical death if you follow the principles and values to which it necessarily leads you.

Descartes was a death-dealer. If you have loyalty and integrity to his mistake, then you die. In order to stay alive and still claim to practice it -- you have to be intellectually dishonest.

Ed


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Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Death Dealer? Isn't that a monster from Harry Potter?

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Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

The "death dealers" are from the epic motion picture: Underworld.

Ed


Post 11

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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No, I think you mean the Necromongers (necro "death" monger "seller" as in "fishmonger") from The Chronicles of Riddick. The screenwriter originally wrote necromancer "death magician" but the director thought "We don't need no neck romancers" and changed the script to something less fancy sounding. Another reason why people need to study etymology.

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Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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This study guide looks excellent:

 

Descartes and the Meditations

Gary Hatfield

(Routledge 2003)

 

“After reviewing Descartes’ intellectual projects and their results in this chapter, we will consider the structure and method of the Meditations as a philosophical text in the next. In Part II, we will examine the six Meditations, one by one. Finally, in Part III we will consider his revolution in science as supported by the Meditations, and sum up his philosophical legacy for us today.”

 

Another:

 

Blackwell Guide to Descartes' Meditations

Stephen Gaukroger, editor

(Blackwell 2006)

 

Concerning Descartes’ science, I can testify, these first two are wonderful:

 

Descartes' Metaphysical Physics

Daniel Garber

(Chicago 1992)

 

Descartes Embodied: Reading Cartesian Philosophy through Cartesian Science

Daniel Garber

(Cambridge 2001)

 

Another:

 

Descartes' System of Natural Philosophy

Stephen Gaukroger

(Cambridge 2002)

(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 11/04, 7:26am)


Post 13

Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Another one, from a superb scholar:

Between Two Worlds
A Reading of Descartes’s Meditations
John Carriero
(Princeton 2009)

(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 2/25, 9:58am)


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