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Monday, June 2, 2008 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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I am wondering why people with severe disabilities should see their objective interest involved in supporting a lassez-faire government.  I know that they need protection from physical force themselves, but wouldn't most people with severe disabilities fair better in the world if they had some kind of support from others (even if it meant mistreating those others).  I want it to be understood that I myself believe in lassez-faire capitalism (although sometimes I wonder if I really have any good arguments to make in favor of it), but I still can't help but ask the above question.  Thanks.


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Post 1

Monday, June 2, 2008 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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Having been born with Spina Bifida (although, I hesitate to call myself severly disabled), I know firsthand the need for assistance in surviving into adulthood.  However, I think your question has a very important point that needs to be addressed.

I am in favor of assistance, yes, but, not government mandated assistance.  There is an organization, The Shriner's Hospital, that is a totally privately funded institution, that assists patients and families of patients with birth defects and certain acquired afflictions.  Solely through private donations, these hospitals are able to care for children born with physical problems, at absolutely no cost to the children's family.  I cannot begin to calculate the cost of all of the operations and procedures I've had done at the Shriner's Hospital as a child.  I guarantee you it is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not over a million. 

The Shriner's Hospital is a great example, in my mind, of the type of private health organization, funded by willing donors, that those who truly need assistance with physical health problems can turn to.  I know I would not be where I am today, if it weren't for them.

According to the Shriner's website, last year's budget was $721 million.  Again, all generated by private donors.

Edit:  I noticed, I didn't really answer your question on why I should be interested in having any "assistance" I need, as a person with disabilities, not run by government mandated and controlled means.  Simple.  I wouldn't want to be forced to help anyone, and I don't want anyone else to be forced to help me.  As stated above, I think there are other means to which a person truly in need can turn to, without anyone being forced into anything.

(Edited by Bauer Westeren on 6/02, 10:54am)


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Monday, June 2, 2008 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Parker,

Given this thread and the other concerning Objectivist Ethics, it appears that your base concern with the philosophy is its view of self interest as excluding the initiation of force. You've given some examples where it sure seems like initiating force against others would benefit the individual doing the forcing.

But Objectivism holds that initiation of force against others is fundamentally irrational. Rand views force as antithetical to the mind, which she views as paramount.

Rand believes a human should use the tools of a human in order to survive and flourish and that force is a sub-human and anti-human tool. She points out all the anti-human nastiness that flows from such force.

So under Objectivism. if a disabled person chooses to act as a human, he should disavow resort to the initiation of force.

Rand's view, not mine,
Jordan

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Post 3

Monday, June 2, 2008 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

What you are suggesting is that it might be in a disabled person's interest to live in a society in which people have no right to make their own choices. But if people have no right to make their own choices (consistent with the right of others to make theirs), then neither do the people who are disabled, and neither do the people who wish to help those who are disabled. In such a society, people are effectively slaves of the government.

This is not in anyone's interest, no matter how abled or disabled the person is.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 6/02, 11:27am)

(Edited by William Dwyer on 6/02, 2:04pm)


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Monday, June 2, 2008 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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For those who would rather be lazy than work, or are disabled and so terrible of a person that no one would willingly help them, it may very well be in their best self interest to desire a government that requires others to maintain their health/life.

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Post 5

Monday, June 2, 2008 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote,
For those who would rather be lazy than work, or are disabled and so terrible of a person that no one would willingly help them, it may very well be in their best self interest to desire a government that requires others to maintain their health/life.
It is not in anyone's interest to set up a government with that kind of power and authority, because (a) you don't know in advance that others won't help you voluntarily if you are genuinely in need, and (b) once the government has the authority to coerce people against their will, it can use that authority for any purpose it chooses, including the elimination of those it regards as helpless and unfit, for when it comes to initiating force against its citizens (such as by robbing, enslaving or murdering them), the government doesn't have to appeal to their reason or gain their voluntary consent.

If you are disabled, you are far better off in a society in which people have the freedom to make their own choices, including the freedom to help or not help you as they choose, than you are in an unfree society in which the government has the power and authority to harm you if it chooses. In a free society, you have the right to receive the help of others, if they choose to provide it. In an unfree society, you exist and function not by right but by permission of the government, which has the power and authority to dispose of your life and property as it chooses. In a free society, you have the right to life -- which means the right to sustain and enjoy your life to the best of your ability. In an unfree society, you don't have any rights. You are a pawn of the state.

- Bill



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Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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What you are suggesting is that it might be in a disabled person's interest to live in a society in which people have no right to make their own choices.

It would be in a disabled person's interest to live in a society where people are free to make their own choices -- except for just one tiny infringement upon that freedom, that everyone would be forced to chip in to aid that one individual, plus other people equally "deserving" of compulsory "charity".

And the foundation of much of modern liberalism is that such a society is possible.

Except that it isn't, in the long run. Sure, you may be able to temporarily get seemingly benevolent rulers who only tax for the "right" stuff, but this leads to a war of all against all, and to rulers who are not quite so benevolent. At best, you wind up with the soft tyranny you see in many European countries, with confiscatory taxation rates to support all this "benevolence".

Post 7

Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,
Thanks for your post, first of all.
I know however that Rand believed that initiating force against others an "emergency situation" may be o.k.  Please see the link here: http://www.jeffcomp.com/faq/murder.html
Near the bottom of the page Rand gives an example of where she thought that it would be o.k. to steal from someone else. 
This is a major problem I  have with Rand.  She states without qualifying her statement in any way at all that the initiation of force against others is evil.  Then, after such a statement, she equivicates.  I understand what people say about "Well, she's only talking about emergency cases when she say's it may be o.k. to initiate force", but I don't agree that you should create moral principles which are stated as general, all-consuming rules if you want to insist later on that that rule wasn't all-consuming.  If I say "the initiation of force against others is evil" and don't qualify my remark until after I've made that statement, I SHOULD be regarded as being inconsistent.  The fact that many Objectivists appear to be covering this fact up lately when I've asked them about it is very disturbing to me.  I thought that I would get a different kind of response than I did.  Not that you're saying that though.  Thanks again for your post. :)


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Post 8

Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

I think it's fair to say that given Rand's article on "The Ethics of Emergencies" in The Virtue of Selfishness, she did indeed qualify her non-aggression principle as not applicable to emergencies.

You can't expect her to include a full-scaled philosophical treatise in a novel. The finer points of her philosophy had to be left for her non-fiction essays, and she did indeed qualify her ethics in those essays.

The context of someone's statements always has to be considered. If someone says that "honesty is the best policy," he doesn't mean it's the best policy if it will get you killed -- that you should never lie even to save your own life. The speaker is clearly referring to a normal social context.

I think it behooves us to consider Rand's statements in a similar light.

- Bill


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Post 9

Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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 I understand what people say about "Well, she's only talking about emergency cases when she say's it may be o.k. to initiate force", but I don't agree that you should create moral principles which are stated as general, all-consuming rules if you want to insist later on that that rule wasn't all-consuming.
Unless you were expecting Rand to issue "rules" and dictums for every single circumstance a human being may face, I'd say this characterization is ignorant at best.  Rand was quite clear: non-aggression is the default, unless one is threatened.  Without life, ethics would be moot, no?   


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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Parker,

I take your point. I can't add much to what others have already said. But for what it's worth: First, keeping the context is important, like Bill and Teresa were saying. Second, Rand espouses principles, not rules, a difference of some import, I think. Third, Rand goes for hierarchical values where tossing a lower value in order to preserve a higher one is okay. Perhaps those points pave a way out for you?

Jordan

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Post 11

Saturday, June 7, 2008 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

 

I agree with you that no one should “create moral principles which are stated as … [unqualified] rules”, but Bill’s response is accurate and relevant – Rand didn’t create moral principles which were stated as unqualified rules.

 

In the first place, she didn’t create any moral principles – she discovered them. In the second place, she didn’t state them as unqualified rules. And if she didn’t do these things in the first place, then she can’t be charged as being inconsistent – nor can Objectivists be charged with covering “this fact” up (if it’s not a fact in the first place).

 

In the attempt to charge her with inconsistency, you provide a link and say:

Near the bottom of the page Rand gives an example of where she thought that it would be o.k. to steal from someone else.

 

Here’s the relevant quote from the link you provided ( emphasis mine ):

I would say again, this is an emergency situation, and please consult my article "The Ethics Of Emergencies" in _The Virtue Of Selfishness_ for a fuller discussion of this subject. But to state the issue in brief, I would say that you would have the right to break in and eat the food that you need, and then when you reach the nearest policeman, admit what you have done, and undertake to repay the man when you are able to work. In other words, you may, in an emergency situation, save your life, but not as "of right." You would regard it as an emergency, and then, still recognizing the property right of the owner, you would restitute whatever you have taken, and that would be moral on both parts.

 

Right there in that very quote she warns that there are qualifications and that she has indeed addressed them at length (when she politely directs the interlocuter to her article on the subject). A salient point is that rights don't "go away" in emergencies, but that the exercise -- or the respect -- of rights may become transiently hampered (fixed later via restitution). Do you agree that ...

 

(1) Rand didn’t create moral principles, but used logic and life to discover them

(2) Rand didn’t state moral principles as unqualified rules but, instead, she qualified them (as she proved that she did in the link which you have provided)?

 

Also, you say that you thought you’d get a different kind of response than you did. (3) What kind of response were you expecting to get?

 

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/07, 4:40pm)


Post 12

Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ed (and others),
I would not so much refer to Rand's "Ethics of Emergencies" to point out her making broad generalizations which she only qualified at a later time.  In fact, I don't even know if she ever said anything about initiating force in that article.  I don't believe she did, and I have just finished reading most of that article again.
However, she did make at least some comments about the initiation of force being wrong in Atlas Shrugged which were never accompanied by any sort of qualification.  I honestly think that we are probably dealing with Ayn Rand in two different time periods here, at least: she at one time believed the initiation of force to be always evil, and at another time believed it to only usually be evil.


Post 13

Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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This is not a very tough issue. Here's the short of it: a seriously disabled person would support capitalism because that person desires to live. A government that would steal from others to support a disabled man could (and probably would) just as easily begin ending the lives of the disabled in favour of those more able. If I were a statist and times got tough, I certainly would not support the disabled.

Post 14

Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

I honestly think that we are probably dealing with Ayn Rand in two different time periods here, at least: she at one time believed the initiation of force to be always evil, and at another time believed it to only usually be evil.
I don't agree. You seem to be looking at -- and evaluating Rand by -- an isolated 7-word sentence: "The initiation of force is always evil" as if it's a floating abstraction, true or not on it's own merit alone. However, I think she deserves more credit than that. I invite you to consider looking at what Rand wrote in context (more than you apparently have). For instance, Rand actually provided a reason why the initiation of force could be evil.

With that larger perspective on this matter -- that Rand had her reasons -- we can take a step back and examine the reasons which would make initiated force evil (rather than treating it merely as a dangling or floating abstraction). Then, knowing the reasons that make a proposition true or untrue, applicable to a situation or not applicable -- we are in a better position to use or to judge the merit of that proposition.

For starters, a couple years before she wrote "The Ethics of Emergencies", Rand qualified the non-initiation of force principle in terms of rights (For The New Intellectual, 1961, p 55):

... no man has the right to initiate the use of physcial force against others.
Notice how that's different from the 7-word sentence: "The initiation of force is always evil." The 7-word sentence is an absolute, while Rand's sentence is qualified or contextual. It doesn't say that one should never initiate force, it says that one never has the unqualified right to initiate force. The idea is that no organized, social, or collective system or action should involve initiated force -- because there's no moral principle of right to justify that sort of thing. Rand goes on to explain her reasoning (p 55-57):

To claim the right to initiate the use of physical force against another man ... is to evict oneself automatically from the realm of rights, of morality and of the intellect. ...

So long as men believe that the initiation of physical force by some men against others is a proper part of organized society--hatred, violence, brutality, destruction, slaughter and the savage gang warfare of group against group are all they can or will achieve. ... the best perish, but the Attilas rise to the top. ...

Let no man posture as an advocate of peace if he proposes or supports any social system that initiates the use of physical force against individual men, in any form whatever. Let no man posture as an advocate of freedom if he claims the right to establish his version of a good society where individual dissenters are to be suppressed by means of physical force. Let no man posture as an intellectual if he proposes to elevate a thug into the position of final authority over the intellect ...

No advocate of reason can claim the right to force his ideas on others. No advocate of the free mind can claim the right to force the minds of others. No rational society, no co-operation, no agreement, no understanding, no discussion are possible among men who propose to substitute guns for rational persuasion.




Rand follows up on this reasoning -- that we shouldn't use force because it invalidates reason (which is our very means of survival) -- in the mid-1960s (Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966, p 17):

Since knowledge, thinking, and rational action are properties of the individual, since the choice to exercise his rational faculty or not depends on the individual, man’s survival requires that those who think be free of the interference of those who don’t. Since men are neither omniscient nor infallible, they must be free to agree or disagree, to cooperate or to pursue their own independent course, each according to his own rational judgment. Freedom is the fundamental requirement of man’s mind.
So we can see why initiating force can or might be evil -- i.e., when it interfere's with man's mind in those situations in which the use of man's mind is appropriate (which turns out to be almost all imaginable situations). In the rare occasion where using your mind is harmful, it should be fine to initiate force on others (because it's the mind that we protect when we refrain from initiating force in the first place). So it's not that initiating force is always evil, it's only evil during those times when we should have been using our minds (which is almost always).

In order to show a consistency across time (to show her belief on this didn't change), here is part of Rand's interaction with a questioner at the 1970 Ford Hall Forum. When Rand speaks of having the freedom (to initiate force), think of that as synonymous with having the right. If you do that, then you will see no change of Rand on this matter from 1961 to 1970:

[questioner] If we must give up a measure of freedom--the freedom to initiate force--to avoid anarchy, why shouldn't we give up a measure of freedom to enable the government to protect us from pollution?

[Rand] ...When I say there should be no personal retaliation, this does not imply that one is giving up some freedom. We don't have the freedom to attack another person--to initiate force. ... Establishing a proper form of government has nothing to do with surrendering freedom. It involves protecting yourself and everybody else from the irrational use of force. ...




So the reasoning is the same. The reason initiated force is bad is because it invalidates our use of reason (our applied rationality). It's the irrational use of force -- the kind that invalidates our reason at times when we actually need it (which is most always) -- that's always bad or always evil.

It's much easier to judge policies -- policies that depend on initiated force -- as evil than it is to judge individual action. This is because policies are general, social, organized, collective things that apply across a wide range of situations -- and there is no wide range of situations where initiated force wouldn't, eventually, be evil. Policies are at the opposite end of a continuum with individual and unorganized actions.

Rand also provides the rubric for judging the evil of even individual initiations of force. In emergencies, she talks about initiating the force but -- at the same time -- not having an unqualified right to initiate force (which is something needed to avoid the moral obligation of restitution, which Rand said we'd still have -- if we initiated force during an emergency).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/19, 11:12pm)


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