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Monday, June 2, 2008 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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I am trying to understand the Objectivist stance on morality and I seem to have two basic points of confusion concerning that topic.  The first is that I don't understand how one can have man's life as one's moral standard and yet never have the possibitity of having to take advantage of anyone else in order to advance one's own life based on that standard.  Peikoff gives many examples in OPAR of ways that someone could take advantage of others (including, but not limited to cases involving the use of force against others).  ... So anyway, I don't understand that.  The second thing is that I read this thing online where Ayn Rand supposedly said something about it being ok to steal from others in some kind of "emergency situation".  Yet, in OPAR, Peikoff says that the initiation of force against others is evil.  He does not qualify that stance anywhere that I've found by saying something like "It's evil in such and such situations.", or "It is not evil in such and such situations."  So is there a contradiction in Objectivism then which on one hand says that the initiation of force against others is ALWAYS evil, and on the other hand says that it is only SOMETIMES evil, or am I mistaken?   Thanks.

Post 1

Monday, June 2, 2008 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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You wrote:

Peikoff gives many examples in OPAR of ways that someone could take advantage of others ...
Where exactly in OPAR? He doesn't use "take advantage" anywhere and "advantage" only twice per my CD-ROM that includes OPAR. Briefly it's fine to "take advantage" of others by trading for mutual benefit voluntarily. But it is immoral to "take advantage" by using physical coercion.

Regarding your question about emergencies, I recommend reading "The Ethics of Emergencies" by Ayn Rand in The Virtue of Selfishness. The book is widely available.
So is there a contradiction in Objectivism then which on one hand says that the initiation of force against others is ALWAYS evil, and on the other hand says that it is only SOMETIMES evil, or am I mistaken?
The latter.


Post 2

Monday, June 2, 2008 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Hi Christopher,

The important thing to remember when it comes to the Objectivist morality is that it is contextual. For example, honesty is the best policy, but not when it threatens your life. Similarly, respecting other people's property is the best policy, but not when it threatens your life. Peikoff is assuming a normal social context when he says that initiating force is always evil. It's always evil, because it violates a principle that enables people to live successfully within that context.

- Bill

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Post 3

Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Reading your post here, and also the one entitled "Questions concerning the Objectivist politics", Mr. Parker, it is clear to me that both your questions reduce to a more fundamental question, which is "why does Rand disallow any exception to her moral principles?" 
The reason is that all of Objectivist morality is derived to be fully, rationally consistent with life, and thus there can be no valid basis for contradicting it in any way.  Introducing any exception, however small or seemingly insignificant, requires the surrender of reason, and once reason is suspended, the rule of whim supercedes.  This sets into motion a process of moral corruption which can not be delimited and steadily brings about complete moral collapse, ie. the loss of the virtues necessary to sustain life. 
In the case of the handicapped person seeking to survive by means of aggression, or the case of a person believing he has the right to steal, the claim to initiation the use of force is inconsistent with the principles of individual rights, which are in turn the rationally derived moral basis of a free society.  To allow such aggression introduces an exception to these principles which reason does not support, and thus requires its suspension and in turn surrenders the mind to control by emotional whims.  If this is socially accepted, further contradiction will follow and the gradual withering away of the principles of individual rights will concurrently ensue, and it will continue until the point of complete social collapse is reached.  Rand illustrates the progressive nature of this process in Atlas Shrugged, and you can easily see it occurring in the current political system.  In each of these cases, it important to see it is not the specific contradiction itself to the Objectivist morality that brings about this destruction, but the process of moral corruption which it initiates
Therefore, one foregoes any attempt at advancing through the use of force in deference to advancing by productive action, for the value of preserving the social environment which makes life possible. 


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Post 4

Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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 The second thing is that I read this thing online where Ayn Rand supposedly said something about it being ok to steal from others in some kind of "emergency situation". 

It appears you're having great difficulty being specific, and prefer to formulate questions in vague generalities. That's unfortunate. 

There was this writer Rand (and many others, including myself) enjoyed, Victor Hugo, who wrote an amazing story about a man who was imprisoned for 20 years for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving sister and family. It's a story of moral redemption, crime, punishment, compassion, love, courage, crushing heartbreak, mindless pursuit, standing up, war, and keeping it all in context.

Rand was, and many of us are, very sympathetic to good people who find themselves in desperate situations not brought on by their own actions.

Would you fault anyone in the Twin Towers for "stealing" whatever they could find in order to escape?  The issue is the context for the act, not the act of stealing itself. There's an important distinction Rand  makes, but I don't think you've grasped it, yet.

Many of us were sympathetic toward those who suffered through Katrina, and were forced to steal in order to live.  Do you honestly think those who steal food in order to live are on the same moral plane as those who steal for fun and profit?  There have been countless movies made, novels and biographies written, not to mention songs composed over this obvious distinction. Rand making the very same distinction isn't exactly earth shattering.


Post 5

Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I like what you have to say but may I suggest that you space your paragraphs out? Reading a computer screen is not like reading a book. Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that there is an electronic media etiquette of holding unbroken lines down to 6 or 8 in a row (before breaking them up with a space in-between).


Teresa,

Thank you for that dose of 'common sense' perspective!


Ed


Post 6

Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that there is an electronic media etiquette of holding unbroken lines down to 6 or 8 in a row (before breaking them up with a space in-between).

 

Hmmmmm [hyjack.....!!]......  news to me - does this mean we all must now start  writing like Mickey Spillane? ;-)


Post 7

Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Okay,     I      will       space     things     out      more.

Also,     you       can     call      me     Bob,    if      you       like. 


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Post 8

Wednesday, June 4, 2008 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Whether an Objectivist would have the right to initiate the use of force in an emergency situation, or more generally whether a person should have the right to contradict his moral principles under certain circumstances is an interesting question.  The answer to this depends on whether it is possible to derive a moral code which is completely general for dealing with reality.  If this is possible, then there would be no reason to ever step outside of it, and if not then it would be under certain circumstances.

Objectivist morality is derived by taking life as the standard of value, reason as the means to knowledge, and reality as the context in which these standards are applied.  Constrained by these standards and context, the derived moral code should apply to any person when dealing with any aspect of reality, and therefore be completely general in nature and thus have no exceptions.  It is however easy to imagine situations, the "life-boat situations" as they are so-called, in which one's survival may require that this code to be violated.  This shows that there is some kind of inconsistency between the standards of the derivation and the result which is produced, ie. there is a contradiction present.  The problem is to find this contradiction. 

Now life must be held as the standard of value, since it is life that makes all other values possible, and thus if life is lost, all other values are lost as well, and reason must be the standard of truth, since knowledge is necessary for survival and only reason can provide it, and there is no situation in which these will not be true.  This leaves the context of reality remaining and thus this must be the source of the problem.

When Rand derives her morality she correctly recognizes that life is a self-sustaining process, and thus men must work in order to produce the values which they require.  She also correctly recognizes that in order for this production to take place the mind must be free in order to function, and thus aggression must be limited to strictly self-defense or retaliatory acts.  It is at this point that the principle of non-aggression enters Objectivism, and with full universality.  This appears to be a valid deduction, however it is flawed in that it fails to consider the fact that the self-sustaining nature of life imposes a limit on the amount of time available for the production of necessary values.  This is the key to the contradiction which arises.  These life boat situations occur when the amount of time available for the production of the necessary values is less than the time required to produce them.  When this happens one has no viable means of survival. 

To clarify this observation, consider a simple example.  Suppose two people are adrift in a life boat, but there is only enough food to sustain one of them until rescue.  The problem isn't that there is no food, or that they will not be rescued, but that the length of time required to acquire adequate food is longer that the time it will take them to starve.  After a few moments of thought about this, I believe you can see that this is the essential characteristic of all life-boat situations, since if the length of time for sustainance is sufficiently long, no life-boat situation can ever occur. 

As I recall, when confronted with the these life-boats situations Rand simply swept them aside by saying that "men do not live their lives in life-boats."  This is true, but only because normally people have sufficient time to produce the values which they require.  It is not true that this is always the case.  Consequently, the Objectivist ethics are not valid in the general context of reality, but only under in special context that sufficient time is available for the production of necessary values, and thus they do not apply to life-boat situations.  

Now can the Objectivist ethics be generalized in some way to subsume all contexts and thus eliminate this contradiction?  I do not think this is possible, since productiveness requires that the mind be free and this imposes the condition of non-aggression, but the self-sustaining nature of life imposes a time limit on the duration of the productive process, and it is not in general possible to simultaneously remain within these two constraints, and since this contradiction is written into human existence at the metaphysical level there is no logical resolution for it, it is thus an unalterable fact of life in this world.  So, Rand was correct to sweep it aside and derive her moral system as she did. 

The conclusion to take away from this is that Objectivism is as general a system of ethics as is possible to create.  One should uphold it as best as one can, and the extremes to which one is willing to go to do so would be a measure of one's moral strength, but if the circumstances of existence make consistency impossible, then you must do what survival requires.  It also means moral rebuke must be withheld from, and forgiveness given to, people in desperate situations who act in a way that would otherwise be immoral, but only if they did not bring this desperation upon themselves through irrational or reckless action, or step further outside the bounds of Objectivist ethics than was necessary to escape it.

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 6/04, 1:51pm)


Post 9

Thursday, June 5, 2008 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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I still feel that the fallacy of the lifeboat scenarios is the assumption of omniscient knowledge.  You can guess that, most likely, you don't have enough food, but you cannot be certain.  Therefore, the conundrum is moot, and you should act accordingly and share the food equally.  Both of you may live, one, or none, but that is the best way to handle that situation.  Similarly, in the prisoner dilemma of kill or be killed, you cannot know it will matter, nor can you know who may be picked ahead of time to be the one to live, or die, therefore you must reject the attempt to impose this choice upon you and look to break out in any possible way.  Take the weapon and try to kill them with it, even if it is near to suicide, or something else - you just never know what will happen in reality.  The phrasing is always if you do X, then Y - but the fallacy is that you don't know Y for certain.

Post 10

Friday, June 6, 2008 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Uncertainty about the future is an interesting point to raise.  It is true that prediction of the future can not be done with complete certainty in any case.  However, it is not enough to recognize the uncertainty of any prediction and go forward considering only the value of possible outcomes, since it reduces all possible outcomes to equal probability of occurrence.  Instead, the determination of the correct course of action becomes a matter of weighing all possible outcomes and their corresponding probabilities against each other and identifying the one which is most selfish.  Invoking this principle may indeed invalidate certain life-boat situations, however it is easy to imagine others which it will not. 

For example, suppose that two people are stranded in a life boat in the ocean.  Their position from land and the prevailing ocean currents are known to them, leading them to predict that it will take ten days to drift to shore.  Suppose further that they are in a part of the ocean which is far from any commercial shipping lanes or recreational areas and their path of drift will not take them into any.  And finally, suppose there is sufficient food in their boat to last them both five days, or one of them ten.  Under this principle of uncertainty, given the outcomes and probabilities present, a bona fide life boat situation exists.  In this case, the aforementioned analysis (Post 8) will apply. 

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 6/06, 11:29am)


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Post 11

Monday, June 9, 2008 - 6:26amSanction this postReply
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People can live without food for a very long time, and do you know how long that is for you?  I doubt it, but I would live on half rations regardless of the likelihood, rather than kill someone for their food.

Post 12

Monday, June 9, 2008 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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The point of starvation may not be known initially, and in general the conditions of true emergency in a given life boat situation may not either.  However, if these conditions are not known, then the presence of a life-boat situation is not known either, and the whole question of how one should act in a life-boat situation becomes irrelevant.  The point at which these conditions become known defines the existence of a life boat situation, and therefore my aforementioned statements need no modification. 


Post 13

Monday, June 9, 2008 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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People can live without food for a very long time, and do you know how long that is for you?  I doubt it, but I would live on half rations regardless of the likelihood, rather than kill someone for their food.

I think most people would do the same, Kurt.


Post 14

Monday, June 9, 2008 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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People can live without food for a very long time,
 
 
I believe that except for desert conditions, four days without water, two weeks without food is the standard view...


Post 15

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 12:33amSanction this postReply
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Remember, you will last a lot longer if you eat the other guy! Might as well or he'll be eating you.!

Yum!

--Brant


Post 16

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

I am sympathetic to your post 8 analysis. Regard the similar responses from Kurt and Teresa, how do you explain their case? What do you think is the main motivation for folks who might resist -- resist to-the-death -- acting in what is oft-considered a sub-human manner?

Some folks say that it is a remnant of psychological "altruism" that motivates folks not to be predators in those rare occasions where predatory behavior seems appropriate to the assumedly-reflective 3rd-party observer. This makes it a "mistake." Alternatively, some folks think that living "humanly" is a higher value than even generic "life itself" (Aristotle, Mill, etc.).

What do you think about that?

Ed


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Post 17

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

The explanation for the resistance of a selfish person to immoral behavior would be the recognition that the survival probability of a group is much higher than that of a single individual, and that a life-boat situation would amplify this probability, and thus the other people present are of high value.  Recognizing this, he would be very reluctant to prey upon any one in a life-boat situation, and would do so only as a last resort.  Just how much the situation would have to deteriorate before he might judge this to be a selfish course of action would depend on his estimate of their value to his own survival in the presence of increasing danger to himself.  To resist to the death however, would clearly indicate that the person is unselfish since he values the lives of others more than his own.  Resistance and resistance to the death thus indicate two morally opposite mentalities, not two morally similar mentalities at different points on the moral spectrum.   

Remnants of psychological altruism would not motivate a person against predatory behavior.  Remembering that the altruist morality is actually a rationalization for subjugating and exploiting others, a true altruist would not hesitate to prey on others, and in a life-boat situation he would be the first to do so. 

Living humanely, or any other value, can not be placed above the value of life, since if this is done life may be traded for this value, resulting in the destruction of all values.  This would indicate an unselfish mentality, and thus an altruistic one.  Placed in a life-boat situation this type of mentality would quickly forget all about "living humanely."

Thinking about this a little more, it is clear that the greatest danger posed in a life-boat situation is probably the other people present than the life-boat situation itself.  Thus, the first course of action to securing survival would be to identify the moral character of those present, then bring the rational, selfish mentalities into an alliance and terminate the anti-rational, unselfish mentalities as quickly as possible. 

Bob

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 6/10, 2:28pm)


Post 18

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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Remnants of psychological altruism would not motivate a person against predatory behavior.  Remembering that the altruist morality is actually a rationalization for subjugating and exploiting others, a true altruist would not hesitate to prey on others, and in a life-boat situation he would be the first to do so. 

This is enlightened, Robert. I'm sanctioning the post just for this one paragraph.


Post 19

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Bob. That's food for thought.

I can tell you from the hip that I am not yet sympathetic to the idea of the "true altruist." For instance, when folks say GW is an altruist, they're wrong. A "true altruist" wouldn't be so self-serving. All dictators aren't true altruists, even though altruism is the only thing that they can outwardly champion -- in order to rule.

"Deceived altruist" or "self-deceived altruist" seems more accurate -- as altruism itself is based on a lie. It's pretty hard to "truly" be something that is not even (metaphysically) real -- but is rather a grand lie.

Ed


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