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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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I am being confronted with the argument that taxes are voluntary because you are voluntarily a member of society, that you could choose to leave.  I don't think this is valid, but what are some arguments you might use, anyone?


Post 1

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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If they're going to use that completely made up premise (please point to it in the Constitution, thanks), what else could be deemed "voluntary" because one chooses to stay here?  Oppressive laws, perhaps?

They're saying that there is no government "force."  There's only a voluntary willingness to submit to force.  Ridiculous.


Post 2

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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A far more voluntary tax system would be not being forced to pay for the Dept of HEW or the DEA or the Dept of Edu, etc. Instead there would be checkboxes on Form 1040 for funding such things as is now the case on Form IL-1040 (Illinois) for several items, e.g. Wildlife, Breast Cancer, and Diabetes. If the federal govt wants to run welfare programs, let it compete with private alternatives.

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Post 3

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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I am being confronted with the argument that taxes are voluntary because you are voluntarily a member of society, that you could choose to leave. I don't think this is valid, but what are some arguments you might use, anyone?
That argument presupposes that the government owns the country and has the right to tell you what to do on its property. If you don't like it, you can leave. It's like renting an apartment. The landlord can raise the rent, because it's his property. If you don't like it, you're free to leave. That argument works for private property owners vis-a-vis their tenants, but not for the government vis-a-vis its citizens.

- Bill

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Post 4

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, a sound theory of propery rights is necessary here. The argument you are facing assumes that "society" is owned by the various members. First it would be helpful to define "society". It strikes me as a definition that, without proper context, is pretty much useless, in that it doesn't differentiate between a whole lot. Is society your neighborhood, county, town, state, country, continent? Does the landmass that defines this society have to be continous? Does an individual who resides within that admittedly arbitrary geographical area have to interact with other people to be considered a "member", or is simply inhabiting the space between the imaginary borders enough to force his membership. Forcing your adversary to answer these questions will help you to see where he's coming from.

Starting at the beginning, the primary question is one of self ownership, and there are three options:

  • An individual owns his own body.
  • Another individual owns his body (a.k.a. slavery).
  • Every other person in society (see above) owns an equal portion of his body.
After considering these options:

  • An individual must own his own body because...
  • Ownership by another individual would imply that that individual owns their body, so this option refutes itself.
  • Regarding everyone owning equal portions of everyone else, most people would reject this absurdity outright. If you face resistance on this point, give up, your adversary is a lost cause (or just feeling pedantic).
After concluding that an individual owns his body, we can infer property rights concerning objects. If I pick some berries, they must necessarily be mine. I have transformed them from their natural state, and since I own my body and the labor it produces, no one else can logically claim that which I have produced (as I understand it this a Lockean view of property).

Ditto for the land itself. If I plant some seeds, I have the right to reap what I have sown. If I build a house, and fence off some land, I have mixed my labor with the land and made it mine (a.k.a homesteading). The right of self-ownership also implies the freedom to transfer ownership of various items in my possesion, including land.

Now consider, what is the difference between the idea that every other person in society owns an equal portion of an individual, and the idea that society (a.k.a every other person) owns the land that we have demonstrated is rightfully posessed by individuals. Thus we see that the idea that if society decides to rob an individual or individuals (a.k.a. tax them), it is done voluntarily because these individuals do not relinquish the property which is rightfully theirs, is patently absurd.

 It's important to remember that individuals necessarily precede "society". Consider a practical example:

Individuals A-Z settle and establish ownership within a given area which for the sake of argument we will deem a "society". After a period of time, individuals A through R decide that service X is needed, therefore they will collect tax Y from all individuals in this society. Individuals S through Z decide that service X is not worth the tax Y that is demanded, and decline to pay the tax. Kurt's opponent would no doubt argue that if these individuals do not wish to submit to the tax, then should remove themselves from society! But since we know that these individuals own themselves, their property, and their posessions, and have the right to retain these posessions which are rightfully theirs unmolested, that this demand is outrageous and fallacious.

If this tax (and all others) were truly voluntary, then S-Z's refusal to pay would start there and end there, but consider what really happens to tax protesters: they are summarily thrown in jail and their assets seized. That hardly seems voluntary to me! Perhaps the individuals making this argument have been fooled by the fact that most people submit to taxation out of fear that their non-compliance will result in the initiation of force against them, but this is ignorant. If I hand my wallet over to a mugger at gunpoint, you wouldn't say I did it "voluntarily", would you?

I think it would be helpful to remember what Ayn Rand said about the "public" (and I'm paraphrasing)...

There is no such entity as "the public", there are only individuals. Therefore anything done in the name of the public good, really means for the benefit of some individuals at the expense of other individuals.

-JF-

*NOTE* This post was as much for my benefit as Kurt's, comments and constructive criticism are welcome.


Post 5

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
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LOL, Kurt it sounds like the argument set forth to you is like arguing we all live in this giant homeowner's association. Sounds like hell to me :)

Post 6

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Is somebody having a Plato sale?  This is the second time this week one of his arguments has come up on RoR.  The one in question is in either the Crito or the Apology.  My answer would be along the lines of #4: the argument asserts a property right on the part of "society" and so gets the arguer into logical difficulties.

David Friedman, son of Milton, said that he used to argue competing-government theory with his father and that he (David)used the condo association analogy to show that, with competing governments, you really do have the option of leaving if you don't like it, whereas with monopoly government you don't.


Post 7

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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I will post the answer I got:

Cara - Let is try to define what you mean by this. This "voluntary" association presupposes that the "society" owns all land and all individuals in the country - since any law can be passed to make use of these resources as you describe.
No of course not, if society owned all individuals they couldn't very well choose not to be part of that society. They couldn't sell their assets before moving if those assets were owned by society as well. Do you feel your point is so weak that you must slap illusionary chains on your wrists and call free men slaves in order to get it across? There are much better reasons grounded in reality instead of fancy why socialism is a mistake.

An individual owes society nothing by mere virtue of it's existence. To say anything else is ridicules altruism. The inverse applies as well. Society owes nothing to an individual by mere virtue of the individual's existence. Thusly if the society wishes what the individual has to offer and the individual wishes what the society has to offer they must both come to an agreement.

If you do not like your agreement you can work to change it or walk away and find a new society, or walk away and decide you do not wish to be a part of any society. It is up to you. You are no more a slave to society then society is a slave to you. I will no more allow you to turn society into your slave because you are not perfectly satisfied then I will allow society to turn you into it's. Altruism is just as wrong when you demand it from society as it is when society demands it from you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vypuero View Post
Now assume I and several other people have found a new land, we each work and establish some properties on these lands, then decide to form our "society" together. We all decide to pay a share of money to hire a sherrif for our "society" and so a "tax" is established.

Now, at some point a group of us decide the sherrif is corrupt and we don't wish to pay any longer. Do we have to "go somewhere else" because our property - that we worked for - is now part of the society?
It all depends on the rules you set up. If you all agreed that you would all continue to pay the police officer unless 51% or more of you decided against it, then you would be breaking the agreement you made, and thus stealing. If you all agreed that anyone could back out of the deal at any time and just no longer enjoy the cop's protection, and someone tried to force you to continue paying, then they would be stealing from you, and I hope you shoot them twice for me.

If someone in the next generation came along and said that he wants the protection of the police officer, but people are trying to turn him into a slave by demanding he contribute to the wage of the police officer who's protection he wishes to enjoy, then he is doing nothing less then demanding the fruits of other people's labor without compensation. The agreement does not bind that individual just because he was born under it. It would be insane to say so. It is not his responsibility to pay the required price. The same is true of the tiny society however. Just because he was born inside of their realm of influence doesn't mean he is entitled to the things everyone has has worked together to build. Thusly it is not society's responsibility to provide for him.

That doesn't change for either party unless both agree, just like every other agreement.


Post 8

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Peter:

David Friedman, son of Milton, said that he used to argue competing-government theory with his father and that he (David)used the condo association analogy to show that, with competing governments, you really do have the option of leaving if you don't like it, whereas with monopoly government you don't.


Yeah but it depends then what we mean by a monopoly. We have 50 states, does Connecticut have a monopoly over New York? We have multiple nations, does the United States have a monopoly over Canada? I meant the home association comment to be a joke. I think all around in every which way it's a bad analogy to compare taxation with home or condo association dues. You can always quip back with "well, you can leave the United States if you don't like that government", unless there is one world government, the condo association argument can't work.

Post 9

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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WD: That argument presupposes that the government owns the country and has the right to tell you what to do on its property. If you don't like it, you can leave. It's like renting an apartment. The landlord can raise the rent, because it's his property. If you don't like it, you're free to leave. That argument works for private property owners vis-a-vis their tenants, but not for the government vis-a-vis its citizens.
Whoa, Willie! I sanctioned that too fast... WHY does it not work for government?  Riddle me that, Batman, and you will become an anarchist.


Post 10

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah but it depends then what we mean by a monopoly. ... unless there is one world government, the condo association argument can't work.
Warmer... you're getting warmer...


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Post 11

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "That argument presupposes that the government owns the country and has the right to tell you what to do on its property. If you don't like it, you can leave. It's like renting an apartment. The landlord can raise the rent, because it's his property. If you don't like it, you're free to leave. That argument works for private property owners vis-a-vis their tenants, but not for the government vis-a-vis its citizens." Michael Marotta replied,
Whoa, Willie! I sanctioned that too fast... WHY does it not work for government? Riddle me that, Batman, and you will become an anarchist.
As I said, the argument presupposes that, like a private landlord, the government owns the country (and, therefore, has the right to tell you what to do it on "its" property), which it doesn't. What does this have to do with anarchism?? No advocate of limited government -- of a government limited to the protection of individual rights -- claims that the government owns the country! Just because you believe that, it doesn't make you an anarchist!

- Bill

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Post 12

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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David Friedman, son of Milton, said that he used to argue competing-government theory with his father and that he (David)used the condo association analogy to show that, with competing governments, you really do have the option of leaving if you don't like it, whereas with monopoly government you don't.
I don't follow this at all. Unless, you live under a totalitarian government, you always have the option of leaving a "monopoly" government. Furthermore, a government is by definition a monopoly. A monopoly government is a redundancy, and a competing government is a contradiction in terms. Because a government enforces its own laws against those who violate them, it monopolizes or seeks to monopolize the legal system within the purview of its jurisdiction. Competing governments are an oxymoron, because a government by definition does not and cannot tolerate those who compete with it -- i.e., those who seek to enforce a different set of laws within its own jurisdictional domain.

- Bill

Post 13

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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any comments on the response?

I certainly agree with some of the first portion, but this seems to mix things up too much in that we don't really have an "agreement" as she describes it, I just don't see that, but it is obfuscated by layers of issues to peel away.

If you do not like your agreement you can work to change it or walk away and find a new society, or walk away and decide you do not wish to be a part of any society. It is up to you. You are no more a slave to society then society is a slave to you. I will no more allow you to turn society into your slave because you are not perfectly satisfied then I will allow society to turn you into it's.


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