About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In a sense, we experiment on others (or ourselves) all the time, testing reality, asking questions and gauging responses.  Home Depot is perfect example because they tout the knowledge of their clerks, so I might ask one an easy question before actually asking the one I need answered.  I might do that in a men's clothing store.  I know the answer, but what will this young man or woman say when I ask the difference between two suits.  So, there is that. 

My question really revolves around "social science" experiments such as Milgram or the Stanford Prison Experiment.  Less controversial are the many seemingly mild inquiries into human behavior, such as those by Stanley Schachter on "affliation."  (Carried out at the University of Minnesota, this engaging array of experiments was designed to see under what conditions people would seek each other's company.  Hunger was one variable, for instance.)

In every documented and attested case, if there is any apparent ethical problem, an ethics committee must approve the experiment.  However, you will see that these ethicians allow quite a lot.  It is perfectly acceptable to lie to people, to manipulate them, to abuse them, if you explain to them afterward that this was all just an experiment.  Not limited to college students, deception is practiced on young children, and of course, on older adults as in the case of the Milgram Experiments. 

My problems begin at the surface.  How can it be said that deception -- and the admission of deception -- has no negative results?  To me, before you could morally allow deception, you would have to establish by experiment or poll over a cohort or longitudinal study that deception had to negative consequences.  Take, say 10,000 college freshmen, lie to them shamelessly about basic facts and operant theories -- green sweaters prevent headcolds; employers hire men in wingtips over men in cordovans; Methodists are happiest marrying Lutherans; etc. etc. -- then, five years later, reveal to them the fact that they were duped -- then 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years later see if their life chances and outcomes proved different than a control group.  You can see the ethical problems...  Yet, this is an honest experiment compared to many others that were carried out.

On a deeper level, I ask about the morality of those who do these experiments.  We here are not surprised to discover that these experiments are the work of social "scientists" (so-called) who subscribe to a full range of philosophical errors from metaphysics through ethics.  Many are admitted and avowed Marxists, "conflict theorists" and post modernists.

I point out that Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo went to high school together.  I submit that their experiments were only a long-delayed and socially-approved "Columbine attack" on other people.  Moreover, I point out that Zimbardo called off his experiment only after he was brought to his senses by his graduate assistant whom he was dating at the time, a clear ethical lapse.  (Yes, it goes on all time.  So does retail fraud.  What's your point?)  Philip Zimbardo, Stanley Milgran, Stanley Schachter and others who experiment on humans are sociopaths who have found "acceptable" outlets for their actions.

I believe that the way these experiments are routinely accepted in the social "sciences" also reveals the inherent inhumanity of the "humanitarians."  The Milgram Experiment found significant numbers of uncooperative subjects.  No follow-up was done.  People who cannot be ruled or tricked are less interesting.  They are discounted.  In such experiments, the focus is always on those who can be manipulated in the ways imagined or intended by the researcher.  These tests never turn up useful truths about non-conformists and independent thinkers.  Such people apparently have no use.

Medical experiments routinely use double-blind tests with placebos to determine the effectiveness of treatments.  If this is moral, under what circumstances, would that be true?  Is it fair to call a subject a "volunteer" if they truly are kept from knowing exactly what they are volunteering for?

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/02, 4:48pm)


Post 1

Saturday, November 3, 2007 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Medical experiments routinely use double-blind tests with placebos to determine the effectiveness of treatments. If this is moral, under what circumstances, would that be true? Is it fair to call a subject a "volunteer" if they truly are kept from knowing exactly what they are volunteering for?
But the subjects are told that they may be getting a placebo, so there's no deception here. They know they're volunteering for a double-blind, placebo controlled study to see if the treatment is effective. I've participated in this kind of study and was told that no one would know whether I received the drug or the placebo until the conclusion of the study. I volunteered for it with that understanding.

- Bill

Post 2

Monday, November 5, 2007 - 1:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm a graduate student in neuroscience and I experiment on humans. How I wish Milgram-style experiments were still ethically acceptable! It would mean a lot less paperwork. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.

No ethics committee in the West would approve Milgram's study today, and I'm pretty sure this has been true for at least 20 years. These experiments were conducted in 1961-63. To say that
"these ethicians allow quite a lot. It is perfectly acceptable to lie to people, to manipulate them, to abuse them, if you explain to them afterward that this was all just an experiment."
is living in the past, man. I'm not sure, but I bet Milgram didn't even have to pass an ethics committee. He probably just had a quiet word with the head of his department to make sure he wasn't going to get fired.

Psychologists do still use deception of a kind, since many experiments don't work if the subject knows what the experiment is designed to measure. So you might tell someone to play a computer game because you're interested in their hand-eye coordination, but actually you're secretly measuring their emotional responses to violent imagery by videotaping their facial expressions. But you'd have to tell them about it as soon as the experiment was completed, and if they objected, you'd have to destroy the video. That's about as far as deception gets today.

As for Milgram and Zimbardo's moral characters, well, who knows? Dating ones graduate assistant is hardly sociopathic behaviour, and it's not, in itself, even unethical I would say although it's probably a bad idea since it could lead one to make unethical decisions such as showing favoritism. Their experiments are often considered unethical today, but this is the first time I've seen them described as Columbine substitutes.

Now regarding the experiments :

I believe that the way these experiments are routinely accepted in the social "sciences" also reveals the inherent inhumanity of the "humanitarians." The Milgram Experiment found significant numbers of uncooperative subjects.

It found some: About 1 in 3 people eventually refused to give the victim the maximum voltage, but most of them were still willing to give severe shocks despite hearing the victim's "cries of pain" - they just stopped before taking it to the level labelled "XXX". The number of people who walked out as soon as the victim started protesting was extremely low. There were a few.

No follow-up was done.

No - Milgram did follow up his subjects as detailed on the Wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results

The results were rather interesting.

People who cannot be ruled or tricked are less interesting. They are discounted. In such experiments, the focus is always on those who can be manipulated in the ways imagined or intended by the researcher. These tests never turn up useful truths about non-conformists and independent thinkers. Such people apparently have no use.

On the contrary Milgram discusses such people and why they refused to participate at length in his book Obedience to Authority. They were, in fact, of great interest to him. It's interesting to note that many of them refused to participate on the grounds of strongly held religious beliefs.

Post 3

Monday, November 5, 2007 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill Dwyer writ: I've participated in this kind of study and was told that no one would know whether I received the drug or the placebo until the conclusion of the study. I volunteered for it with that understanding.

William, I appreciate the fact that my complaint was over-broad.  If it were tighter, it would have been an article. My point stands, however.  Even if your experience is common, there is a more basic question, the one raised here in the title.  More follows...

Jeremy B asserted: To say that
"these ethicians allow quite a lot. It is perfectly acceptable to lie to people, to manipulate them, to abuse them, if you explain to them afterward that this was all just an experiment."
is living in the past, man.

Jeremy, thanks for pointing out the shortcomings.  I confess that I wrote this from secondary sources, not the strongest opening move.  My major is criminology and we have been through these Milgram/Zimbardo experiments a couple of times in different classes.  I did most of this writing for a class in social science research after watching a video about the Stanford Prison Experiments of Philip Zimbardo. 

I assert, however, that these experiments go on today.  No, not  the fullblown Milgram/Prison scenarios, but many others, less obviously troubling.  They go on now.

Lying to children is a perfect example. 
The example you cite is exactly my kind of concern.
  • Here the researcher EXPECTS that playing a violent game may be damaging.
  • The researcher has the children play a game.
  • Could they even judge whether or not they should?
  • Then, after the experiment, the researcher tells the kids they were used like objects.
  • What does that teach?
What is the real experiment?

If it is moral to objectify and instrumentalize others, where does that end?  And why would it end where you want it to... and not farther down the road ...  


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Monday, November 5, 2007 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As an aside on professors dating students...

"... there has always been an unwritten rule that getting involved with students is a bad idea..."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/04/22/dating.professors.ap/index.html

You might remember Prof Dave Jennings, the character played by Donald Sutherland in Animal House, the sleazy professor with the coeds on his arm.  It has always been considered unethical for exactly the reasons suggested by Jeremy B: favoritism... and that cuts both ways, in other words, becoming (sexual) harrassment when someone in a position of power imposes on a subordinate for (any kind of ) favors.  I would have to dig through a ton of notebooks from the last four semesters, but this came up more or less recently in a class: How long after a student has been in your class is it ethical to begin dating?  And the answer was "Never."  There are enough fish in the sea that you should never have to date a former student.  Period.

You might say that it goes on.  And it does.  So does cheating on exams.  Right and wrong are not established by numerical polling.

I submit that the inherently unethical behavior of these professors is evidenced by their willingess to treat people as objects, to experiment on them, to engage in deceit.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Monday, November 5, 2007 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There are enough fish in the sea that you should never have to date a former student.  Period.


That is insulting to the fish - and to the humans, that ye'd consider them as fish, meaning all alike...  Sounds like something a tribalist would say, not an individualist....


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rewriting Atlas Shrugged:

When she opened her eyes, she saw sunlight, green leaves and a man's face. She thought: I know what this is. This was the world as she had expected to see it at sixteen—and now she had reached it—and it seemed so simple, so unastonishing, that the thing she felt was like a blessing pronounced upon the universe by means of three words: But of course.

 

She was looking up at the face of a man who knelt by her side, and she knew that in all the years behind her, this was what she would have given her life to see: a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt. ….

  

"We never had to take any of it seriously, did we?" she whispered.

 

"No, we never had to."

 

And then, her consciousness returning fully, she realized that this man was not a total stranger.

 

“You look vaguely familiar” she said.  “Weren’t you my professor in Engineering 303?”

 

“Why yes, yes I was.”

 

She sighed.  “Then it would be inappropriate to let our relationship go any further.  I’d appreciate it if you would take me home.”

 

“Of course you’re right; it would be unethical.  I’ll call you a cab.”

 

THE END




Post 7

Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Glenn Fletcher wrote:
“You look vaguely familiar” she said.  “Weren’t you my professor in Engineering 303?”
What is that course about? Electricity and Magnetism of Sex?
 


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Thursday, November 8, 2007 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Merlin,
The course was "Static Electricity and Animal Magnetism: How to Harness One and Enjoy the Other". 

But, according to Michael, the course content is irrelevant.  Once that sacred bond between teacher and student is created, no other relationship is allowed.  Apparently people (not some people, but "people") are incapable of being objective, when it comes to evaluating a person's academic performance, if he/she is going to be romantically involved, in the future, with the student.  Therefore, such a relationship is unethical and should be prohibited.

To which I say: "Poppycock!"  It's the "favoritism" and the "sexual harassment" that are wrong, not dating the student after the fact.  When I was a graduate student, I dated an undergraduate student.  She wasn't in my class, but her roommate was in my friend's class.  You can see the possibilities: one woman tells her roommate to put pressure on me to put pressure on my friend to give the woman a good grade.  What a totally unethical situation!  How many degrees of separation are required before it's allowed?

Thanks,
Glenn


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.