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Post 80

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 1:50amSanction this postReply
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It may be a bit late to comment on this, but I thought I might give it a shot anyways.

First, to those that think it's an error in regards to being transgendered, ask yourself this. Would you give up who you are today because others demanded it of you? What if it was your wife? Your father or mother? Your own children? Many transgendered people face such a question everyday, the majority of them do give up being transgendered or at least ignore it for some time. Depression is often the symptom of the supression, rather than caused by the expression of transgendered feelings or valuing differences of their being (whether in-born or chosen). Suicide is the result, obviously, of continued supression of those thoughts and feelings, since none of them ever get addressed, not even therapists seem to be able to solve them with satisfaction of the patient and themselves.

Second, as much as I abhor the common use of the argument of genetics, there are some key differences between males and females, these are apparent in brain morphology and other categories that suggest it as a dimorphism in our species (as it is in many mammalian species). Yet, ours is a queer species none the less. You can find many males that have supposedly female only qualities (wider hips, softer features and etc), even though their other traits still define them clearly as males (their genitals and temperment). As for how this applies to transgendered people, I would suspect it has little bearing on us, but it should be pointed out that it still has bearing on a category of persons onto their own: intersexed individuals. So, I would suggest parsing them onto their own, and address them in kind, unlike many transgendered people whom I've had the displeasure of dealing with that wish to co-op the condition of being intersexed or pseudo-hermaphroditic.

Third, being transgendered is a value choice by and large. I choose exhibit my feminine qualities and traits. I choose to refine them. And I choose out of love for my life, not out of hatred for it. Many transgendered people take a strange stance that their lives will be better once they reach fulltime and post-operative status. I've found this to be not the case. There is no happy ending for transgendered people as with all people by simply following some set pattern of traditions or rituals (For transgendered people this includes the mystical 'passing,' 'integrating,' and other such social and 'medical' rites.) and their dreams will come true. Happiness is never automatic, I found that out in my own small span in Nature, but I find it troubling many other transgendered (or otherwise) people have not.

Fourth, being myself is the goal of all my actions. Whether it's choosing to not socializing with people I do not share values with or voting for Ron Paul in the primaries (and hopefully the national presidential election). All these actions end at I, at self. Even the goal to express my femininity more openly is a goal for my end and not of others. Even if it means losing some friends, some which I come to realize were truly never friends. And to that goal of being myself, I put all my effort to aim for the best possible outcome.

Basically, I don't give a damn about the thoughts or feelings of others in regards to my choices beyond this question: did I use force or fraud to achieve my ends? If not, then what I choose is of no consequence to others, except myself. If society some how deems me evil or bad, then I guess I best find a better realm to settle down, since I have no right to use force or fraud to change the minds others, no matter how wrong they might be. I can only change myself, and change my own course in life.


-- Brede

P.S. On the argument of the so-called psychological theories about homosexuality, not a single case of a patient undergoing therapy has shown to be capable of retaining a permanent homosexual free life. Many so-called converted homosexuals often revert or take a bisexual stance in their attractions. As to the origin of these attractions: don't ask me, ask a biologist.

And as for applying it to transgendered identifies, that too has been shown not to be work, and in many cases a transgendered person will revert back the moment the therapy is finished.


(Edited by Bridget Armozel on 8/06, 2:04am)


Post 81

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 2:48amSanction this postReply
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Bridget, thanks for giving us your views on transgender identity. I for one have no clue what the source of feelings are for transgendered individuals who want to be more like the opposite sex. I am no where near qualified to say if it is genetic or psychological (or perhaps a little of both?). But regardless of what reason, even if it is psychological, that does not mean you do not have the right to live your life the way you want to live it. As you say you choose to live your life they way you choose to out of your love for it and I respect that right and wholeheartedly believe you. It is not up to me to say how you ought to live your life to make you more happy. You are the only person qualified to make that judgement and it is not up to me or anyone else. I don't regard you any differently as an individual for it. What gender people want to identify themselves with makes zero difference to me. It's your moral character that matters to which you ought to be judged by, your gender identity plays no part in that.

My only gripe was with the idea that gender reassignment surgery should be some kind of entitlement via forcing insurance companies to fund these procedures. Which I'm sure you have the same gripe as an objectivist.



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Post 82

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Brede,
Don't take this the wrong way - through your posts, I've come to like you and I don't want to be insulting or anything.  But I have a real problem with sex reassignment surgery when performed on someone who is physically a normal male or female (though I recognize your right to do it).  Can't you just be who and what you are?  You shouldn't feel that because you have some feminine traits, you have to look physically female.  I don't think people should mutilate their bodies just to match some societal idea of what is masculine or feminine.  Someone earlier asked if anyone would be transgendered if they were alone on an island.  Isn't it a social thing?  I read a story about a very young boy who wanted to live as a girl, and it made me very sad to see.  I can't imagine this reaction out of a boy unless his parents made him feel totally ashamed about anything "feminine" that he expressed an interest in.  Did they hammer home the point that "dolls are for girls" so forcefully that he felt he had to switch sexes??


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Post 83

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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But I have a real problem with sex reassignment surgery when performed on someone who is physically a normal male or female (though I recognize your right to do it). Can't you just be who and what you are?


That's a good question. So, to answer it, I consider it important that many transgendered people take this decision critically because it's a life changing event to be sure. For some, this decision is necessary as to have an integrated identity, in that some folks are just plain better off as the opposite sex. Others, not so better off. And some, like myself, are simply in-between personality and looks-wise, and express ourselves as such. This choice isn't the cure-all at all, that's why medical doctors that provide sex reassignment surgery require a second opinion and a minimum of a year's time fulltime as the opposite sex before they even consider you as a patient (including a deposit on top of it, prior, if you're really serious). These doctors are not out to exploit confused people as it conflicts with their oath and with their bottom line (malpractice suits may not sting as much, but not being able to get malpractice insurance stings more so when it comes to keeping a state license to practice). I hope that clears up that inquiry for you.


Can't you just be who and what you are? You shouldn't feel that because you have some feminine traits, you have to look physically female.


Personally, I think being who I am is part of the whole looking physically female. It seems to me, that you're suggesting that I shouldn't look or act female, thus the only option is to look like what? Rambo? To be serious about this point, consider what you just stated. You are stating that I should be myself, and I stated myself is being feminine and female-like (or womanly). Yet, you put a proviso that states I shouldn't look/act female/feminine. Isn't that's a bit contradictory? Or am I misrepresenting that statement? I'm not sure, maybe you can clarify.

-- Brede
(Edited by Bridget Armozel on 8/06, 11:09am)


Post 84

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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When do Appearances Matter?

In absolutely every other sphere of life, Objectivists define who and what an individual is as a matter of choice, of the mind, of accomplishments, and relegate mere physicality except perhaps for fitness to almost pure irrelevance. Although certain parties deny it, it is claimed and I find it plausible that Rand said to Branden in regard to their affair that if she were truly his highest value, he should be attracted to her even if she were 80 and confined to a wheel chair. Why, then, is the topic of transsexuality the one topic where a person's identity is defined by his external genitalia to the exception of all other considerations? Who here can see into the brain of a transvestite or transsexual and say that there is not some congenital condition which makes him transsexual or transgendered by nature? Why on this topic alone is external appearance of such importance?

I myself have no transsexual drives, I don't claim to understand it or even to be comfortable about it when thinking of my own body. I am perfectly happy with my physical nature, except for the fact that I am aging and have always tended towards obesity. (And by the way, who would make a big deal if I wanted to have a face lift, hair grafts, or liposuction?) Having been attracted to both men and woman for as long as I can remember, having liked the smell of men and woman - something that is certainly biologically mediated - I can abstractly imagine that a person might see himself as mentally oriented as the opposite gender. This may or may not have to do with the gender to which they are attracted and it may or may not be just a hobby or essential to his being. My murdered boyfriend Jay, a very masculine 6'4" black man, enjoyed dressing up as a woman and except for his height he did not look like the freak that so many on this list seem to assume a transsexual. Indeed, many slight people and many non-Caucasians are physically constituted in a way that gender reassignment surgery can be quite successful. I have also seen plenty of big-boned women, especially Caucasians and Negroes who look mannish. What does any of this matter?

Gender reassignment surgery is only a recent possibility, (excepting the ancient practice of eunuchism) and as Brede has mentioned, it has very strict protocols. I have seen some transgendered people whose surgery is miraculous, and some who are much less fortunate. This is a modern phenomenon, and perhaps the modern prevalence of this possibility leads to the prevalence of wide shouldered (presumably Caucasian) transsexuals such as Teresa mentioned and therefore public attention to more and more people who don't become Barbie-doll ideals. But isn't it precisely the transsexuals who do pass and who therefore don't come to our immediate attention who prove the value of this procedure to those who have the mental makeup and financial resources to make of themselves whom they wish.

Much of the discussion on this thread has been less than philosophical. Robert made a bizarrely irrelevant comment, presumably about Sanjay from American Idol, who is effeminate, but who surely knows it, and whose obvious comfort with himself and easiness with which he finds joy is a much better example of happiness so far as I can tell than Robert's own posts here are. Robert might present his own favorite artistic accomplishment here if he wants to prove whether he or Sanjay is the better artist. Not having actually heard Sanjay, I'll withhold judgment.

Bill Dwyer then commented on a friend who had had (unprotected?) sex with a man who was a bisexual, implicitly arguing, I presume, that having sex with bisexuals is dangerous. I have two comments. First, what does bisexuality have to do with the topic of this thread? And much more importantly, isn't Bill's complaint not with bisexuals, but with liars who happen to be bisexual? I dated a woman for years who knew I was bisexual. I did not come out to her at first, but I did after a year and a half, and in the meantime I was faithful to her and knew I was HIV negative.

I had posted some very personal information above in a good-faith effort to explain my boyfriend's occasional transvestism and my own encounters with people who in some way differ from the fully heterosexual poles of expression and attraction. I deleted that information because I did not want the memory of my boyfriend (murdered in a carjacking) intermingled with the non-philosophical personal statements of distaste and insensitive jokes that have marred this thread.

I will conclude by suggesting that anyone who truly wants to understand non-exclusively heterosexual matters broaden their investigations beyond the perverse displays of Mapplethorpe and so-called Gay Pride Parades, consider the sexuality of the Bonobo, recognize the universal existence of homosexuality and transvestism in all cultures and throughout all of know history, among philosophers, artists, and statesmen, study the phenomenon of the Amerind berdache and the transsexual old-world shaman, and, most especially, consider the possibility that your own perhaps unquestioned preferences, whether for the opposite sex or for chocolate over vanilla may not necessarily be universal, necessary, or ideal.

Biological Exuberance addresses animal sexuality. I believe that it definitely overreaches, but it still presents valuable information. Michael N. Henry's Studies in Siberian Shamanism addresses homosexuality and especially transsexuality in cultures which predate ours by millennia, showing that such phenomena are not unique modern aberrations of the West.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/06, 4:31pm)


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Post 85

Monday, August 6, 2007 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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  It seems to me, that you're suggesting that I shouldn't look or act female, thus the only option is to look like what? Rambo? To be serious about this point, consider what you just stated. You are stating that I should be myself, and I stated myself is being feminine and female-like (or womanly). Yet, you put a proviso that states I shouldn't look/act female/feminine.
Do you think that in order to be a man you have to look and act like Rambo?

I am not saying that you shouldn't "act female"... but, actually, I don't think you should "act" any way at all!  I'm a woman, but I do not think that I "act female."  I am just myself.  If I miraculously woke up one morning as a male, maybe I'd be seen as effeminate, but I wouldn't be "acting female", I would just be behaving normally for me.  All I'm saying is that if you asked me (which you didn't, of course), I would advise that you just behave normally for you, and not worry about whether society thinks you're too effeminate to be going around in a male body.


Post 86

Wednesday, August 8, 2007 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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Some Empirical Data from the Field



Peppermint: "Servin' It Up"

Post 87

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Hehe, I like Cazwell, good motion through his lyrics, the same with Peppermint. :)

As for acting normal. Normal according to whom? Not to be rude, but I'm a nerd. A NERD, so my normal is cracking jokes about the last night's CS:S match and laughing at how the hucksters at Blizzard are raking in the cash from WoW, and what the current FUD line is from Micro$loth on Linux OS code supposedly violating their mystery patents. (Hint: If you can decipher every line of that with ease, you know I'm normal as a nerd. Oh and I cast magic missile to attack the darkness! >:3)

-- Brede

P.S. To extend the hate issue beyond that of race, sexuality, and gender identity, lets look at this little news article. It may seem trivial, but none the less it's one of those "huh" momments that pops into the head when reading that article, as I did last evening.

(Edited by Bridget Armozel on 8/09, 9:57am)


Post 88

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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I don't get it.  You seem to think that I think there's something wrong with being a nerd.  I'm a nerd myself.  Nerds can be male or female, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a nerd of either sex.  I like nerds.  Male nerds especially!  Males do not have to be Rambos.  Females do not have to be Barbies.

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Post 89

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Well you stated acting normal. I'm just teasing you on that point, because normal only really applies to statistical samples, not humans. But for who I am, I am feminine, and that's just that. I even got called a she while I was waiting for a cashier to ring up my order at a Walgreens last night (and I had a bit of a scruff on the face!). So, my point is this: gender is not sex, and never will be.


-- Brede

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Post 90

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose I could be considered effeminate, in that I am tall, slender, dress well and tend to use my hands too much. I've even been referred to as ma'am or miss on the phone before (and mistaken for an older man too, which is odd).

In my job as a truck driver I have to be extremely careful about what I do and where I go. You would not believe how many 'signals' and 'signs' there are for gay truckers. I could be having problems lighting a cigarette (snapping a lighter is apparently a signal) and be mobbed by giant men trying to get at me!

Laure is right: men don't have to be Rambo and women don't have to be Barbie, though I wouldn't mind if they were. Much of this may be a taste issue. I like very feminine women who wear dresses and have long hair. But that does not mean those who aren't are any less of a woman. A lesbian is still a woman, though not one I would consider attractive (unless she is tall, slender and dresses well).

Post 91

Thursday, May 8, 2008 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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More Empirical Evidence (Can You Spot the Transexuals?)



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