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Post 0

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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In the case of the mentally disabled, infants/children, and others not capable of rational self interest is the objectivist stance still that altruism is bad? 

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Monday, March 12, 2007 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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Yes, altruism would still be bad, but, no, nothing in Objectivism prevents helping others. 

Understand that altruism would make helping others required, not optional, and it would require that the help be to a degree that was clearly sacrifical - that is, would hurt your own goals.  For example, if you had enough money to care for your own child but were required (morally or physically) to give that money up for the sake of another person's child (because the other child was retarded, for example) that would be altruism.

The heart of altrusim is required sacrifice - harm to that which you value for the sake of another that you value less or not at all.  The advocates just try to hide its true nature by making it look like it is only about helping.

Objectivism holds kindness and generosity and benovolence as virtues - not major virtues, but virtues none the less.

Notice that the issue of the others being capable of rationality doesn't even come up.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 3/12, 11:38am)


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Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Audrey, Steve answered this question well, but here's a relevant excerpt anyway ...

Those who reject the principle of selfishness will find in the history of ethics two main alternatives. One is the primordial and medieval theory that man should sacrifice himself to the supernatural. The second is the theory that man should sacrifice himself for the sake of other men. The second is known as "altruism," which is not a synonym for kindness, generosity, or good will, but the doctrine that man should place others above self as the fundamental rule of life. --http://www.peikoff.com/opar/altruism.htm
In other words, you can be kind, generous, and of good will toward others -- but it's not ever good to be altruistic toward them (i.e., to think that the welfare of others is what it is that justifies your own continuing existence on this earth). You're here to live and grow and shine and blossom and flourish and enjoy and share -- you're not here just "because" some other existing being had first needed you to be here; in order to "help" them by granting them the time and energy of your life on earth.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/12, 12:27pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/12, 12:34pm)


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Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,
Thanks for your help. I guess I don't understand why it is assumed that altruism means required.  The word in and of itself does not suggest force of any kind.  Maybe that is where I have gotten confused.  I don't understand why there is an implied involuntary meaning in the word.  I can understand objectivist qualms with making a sacrificial choice, but what about sacrificial choice in which YOU stand to gain more in consequence?  Is it a belief that the ends can never justify the means when it comes to self sacrifice? 


Post 4

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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I do understand the concept, and I think I have always understood it.   Thanks Ed, you made it clearer for me.  My whole problem seems to stem not from the concept, but from what I feel is a misuse of the word.  Do objectivist hold that all unselfish acts must come from force and are therefore sacrificial?  Because if this is how it is viewed I can understand the use of the word in this way.   Though, I still don't know if I could agree with it. :)

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Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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why there is an implied involuntary meaning in the word

Because there is a moral imperative involved - remember, that code is one of commandments to be obeyed, not values to be understood.....


Post 6

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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Audrey wrote:

> but what about sacrificial choice in which YOU stand to gain
> more in consequence? Is it a belief that the ends can never
>justify the means when it comes to self sacrifice?

Hi Audrey:

Objectivism defines sacrifice as the giving up of a greater value for a lesser value. If a person thinks long-range about their life rather than just focusing in the moment, then yes, there are many situations where a person's appropriate action may look like an immediate "sacrifice" but is, in fact, appropriate and non-sacrificial in the bigger picture since a more important value is being achieved. For example, going to war to defend one's freedom is a risky business and, in the moment, if one is injured or killed, this is often described as a "great sacrifice". However, for the individual who would rather die than live under some totalitarian dictatorship, the action may be totally rational and non-sacrificial in their value hierarchy.

In your dealings with other people, Objectivism instructs us to be cognizant of our values and then act accordingly. If we value the happiness and wellbeing of other individuals, then it is not inappropriate to act in service of these values, so long as those actions do not compromise other higher values. The key point is that one must act in accordance with one's own values and not allow some other person or external authority to impose their values upon them.

Regards,
--
Jeff
(Edited by C. Jeffery Small
on 3/12, 1:00pm)


Post 7

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Audrey, you asked ...

Do objectivist[s] hold that all unselfish acts must come from force and are therefore sacrificial?
But it really pays to clarify what kind of act it is that is being labelled "unselfish." Many acts that seem so, aren't. If an act is other-regarding, for instance, that doesn't necessarily make it unselfish. When I trade my well-honed skill for someone's money, I've got the welfare of the other guy in mind -- in order to first pick and choose with whom I should trade. This focus on what another needs is a selfish focus -- because I'm seeking to gain from the aforementioned trade.

In contrast, altruism is a focus on what another needs TO THE ABSOLUTE EXCLUSION of what it is that we do -- so that our life choices are being made with the sole purpose of their benefit in mind. Rand joked about how a true altruist would have to jump in the first boiling pot of the first cannibal they ever met. Indeed, if the sole justification for one's existence were the existing needs of others, then this idea -- of sacrificing your very flesh so that another could have one warm meal -- follows straightforwardly.

Ed


Post 8

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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Just to add my two cents here:

http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/altruism

"behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species"

In altruistic ethics, this behavior becomes codified as a moral imperative such that a person who fails to act in this manner becomes vilified as evil.


Post 9

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Because there is a moral imperative involved - remember, that code is one of commandments to be obeyed, not values to be understood.....

Robert,

Of what code do you speak of as a commandment?  And yes, I concede that we are speaking of a moral imperative, but that still doesn't change the meaning of the word.  The compulsory part is added after the fact.  Thanks for reminding me of this because I do take things very literally at times.  I see altruism and self-sacrifice as two entirely different things, but if I look at altruism as a rule I can see how it would become self-sacrifice as a rule.

big thank you to Jeff and Ed in your clarifying unselfish/self-sacrifice for me.


Post 10

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

 :) heheh ...we must have been posting at the same time...but as you can see I finally came to that realization. 


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Post 11

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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I really like the way Ed phrased the difference between  Objectivist ethics and Altruistic Ethics,
"...you can be kind, generous, and of good will toward others -- but it's not ever good to be altruistic toward them (i.e., to think that the welfare of others is what it is that justifies your own continuing existence on this earth). You're here to live and grow and shine and blossom and flourish and enjoy and share -- you're not here just "because" some other existing being had first needed you to be here; in order to "help" them by granting them the time and energy of your life on earth." {emphasis added}
And, of course, others are not here to provide us with an unearned existence either.

Centuries of ethical and political domination by altruism has left many words difficult to use clearly: 'Selfish', 'unselfish', 'sacrifice' and the word 'altruism' itself. 

Selfish, according to altruism is bad (we have no moral right to value our own happiness while others are suffering, they say).  An addict taking a dose of drugs is behaving selfishly (what he is preoccuppied with is in his self, not outside of it) yet he is not acting in his rational self-interest.  So maybe 'selfish' should be a moral-free concept - independent of altruisms call for self-sacrifice and independent of Objectivism's call for rational self-interest.  Just a boundry definition.

Selfless has become identified with being capable of seeing beyond ones own needs and being generous.  That is the influence of altruism that wants to stop people of thinking of their own interests.  To be able to look beyound ones interests is no problem for Objectivists, but we have good reason to not like the word.  For an Objectivist the best thing to do is to identify, by context, when a person who is using the word means seeing things outside of the self or give up their own interests- and go from there.  True selflessness is a form of psychological pathology - the extreme would be a coma.

Sacrifice has been given a haloed, virtuous connotation.  But the facts are these - if a person endures some kind of deprivation or suffering on behalf of what they value more (like going without a new car or vacations to put money into the kid's college account) it really isn't a sacrifice.  If someone gives their kid's college money to someone else, someone they don't know, to fund the education of kids they don't know - that is a sacrifice (I think that example was used by Rand somewhere).  Giving away the kid's college fund wouldn't happen unless the person felt guilty not doing so (moral imperative) or they were compelled by force.  Altruists want sacrifice treated as a virtuous duty that can't be escaped.  It is the root of their political institutions ("From those according to their need, from those according to their abilities" is the socialist translation).  Objectivists want sacrifice to be seen as wrong.  Individuals and society benefit more from creating the conditions that promote individual flourishing and enjoyment.

Altruism gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that it is mistakenly thought to mean "the act of giving" - with no focus on the person who loses or the net result or the rights involved when it becomes the basis for legal rights.


Post 12

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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To put the issue of ethics as a code of commandments [and not just the Ten Commandmants, but essentially all of ethical pronouncements up to recent times], let there be a putting into historical and prehistorical context.......




Conflicts



When the earliest of humanity spread out from the African terrain, the general assumption is that they all spread upward, that is, to the northern areas. One group, which in time became the Neanderthals, took to crossing the then land bridge of the Gibraltar straits, into western Europe. Others more or less settled among the shores of the Mediterranean which at that time were not the desert-like areas known today. Most wandered to the northeast, some settling among the delta of the Nile, others across the curve into the Anatolian region, still others crossing the isles into the Grecian areas into what became Thrace. The rest, by various ways, traversed across the near east region into the region of the Indo of the far east. As each advance took place across the land, offshoots took to going north, depending on the Ice Age glacier decendencies. There was also, after a time, a return migration from the Indo area across the northern lands, following the game which they by that time had begun to hunt, becoming very much the hunter society.



It was those which settled along the eastern coastal waters of the Mediterranean, those who settled in Thrace and the Anatolian regions and down into the Mesopotamian valley, from which, it seems, civilization first took root, where the then lushness of the land did not derive a fierceness of struggling to survive, but allowed the leisureness from which all the rest developed. There is a proviso on this - too much lushness does not generate development, as there is little incentive for development. After all, why bother - what would be the gain in terms of survivability. None, or very little, actually, and what there was would have preceded along a path little different than of the other primates. In many ways, this would as consequence lead to the 'dead end' societies of today's primitives, who have, as they've had, almost no incentive to advance beyond where they presently are - human beasts of the jungle [and which is why Africa, except for its outlining fringe areas, never developed anything more than primitive civilizations].



In the north, however, matters were very much different. With the shifting of the ice masses of the Ice Ages, what was once lush lands ceased to remain as such. As a consequence, the leisure kind of life as examplified by those that settled on more southern areas, a life marked by gathering/foraging more than by hunting, and a diet consisting more of a vegetarian/seafood mode than heavy meat eaters, all changed. The hunters became the more important members to the group's survival. This principle economic activity, being focused on what can be considered a parasitic relationship to animals, was of course, the special preserve of menfolk. Thus the political/religious institutions which evolved took a quite different turn than the developed areas of the Anatolian region. There arose a system of patrilineal families, which were united into kinship by the authority of a chieftain, the person who was responsible for daily decisions as to where to seek out pastures for the animals which were kept, like goats, and the area where game was to be sought. Because expediency is often the measure of survival in harsh times, especially in a culture not highly developed, pastoralists were more apt to engage in the oftime violent seizure of another's animals or pastoral grounds - it was, after all, the easiest way to wealth, and was the most obvious form of prowessness. Thus arose importance to the practice and discipline of war - for war, as Jacob Bronowski pointed out in his Assent of Man, is organized theft.



The hunter society, by its nature, stems more from the centripetal form of relationships. Alpha-males are considered needed for the social structure to work for the survival in a harsher land where leisure is much more at a general premium and foraging does not garner the surpluses found in the more hospitable climates. The political/religious would, then, be based on the agonic mode of commanding attention. This would be for the purpose of channeling the aggression of the males into a bonding to defend the members of the respective societies against, in the original pre-human ape/hominid societies, the leopard, or other similar predatory animal powerful enough to threaten the groups' survivals. As the evolvement became the human, the "leopard' became as much as a metaphor to signify "the enemy". Their religion, then, evolved as a means of, eventually, to justify the politics. In so doing, it would have had to shift emphasis from the benignly Mother Goddess that the women had preached into something congruent with the male domination of the hunters surviving in a harsh land.



Religion is a primitive form of philosophy. The ethics of religions stem from what, pragmatically, were the actions considered as virtues to the groups involved. These in turn stemmed from the conditions in which the groups lived as they developed the cognitive abilities. As Jacobs pointed out, there are those two fundamental sets of virtues. I suspect, tho, that there were few areas on earth where conditions were so optimum as to foster rapid growth that led to the earliest civilizations beyond the initial group developments - and that this is why, in a few select areas, matriarchal societies were able to take hold and advance as rapidly as cognitive possibilities allowed. The other groups advanced, yes, for the most part, but much slower, for the reasons already pointed out.



I further suspect, too, that the virtues of the trader syndrome were in place before these divisions among the civilized groups took place and the diaspora took place. This is not to say that the competing groups around the civilized ones did not possess a rudiment of virtue sets, but that their developments, if they had them, went much slower, and probably like those that went out far north, turned patriarchal as well in the course of time - tho for a different reason [this is to say, the patriarchialness of the kind found among the primitives of today]. This is also assuming before these groups were overcome by those early homo sapiens that migrated up along the coast of Africa from their apparent origin in South Africa areas.



In any case, these virtues acquired prominence over the course of time, and ethics arose from them. Could ethics have arisen without religion - probably not, for the initial striving to understand the world around in a patterned sense, even in the optimum case, would have resorted to analogies involving relatings to their own kind. Thus the "mother earth" deity, for instance. I don't, however, hold to the idea that the matriarchal religions had to develop as ferociously as did the patriarchal ones did, mostly because I hold their development was far more benign and fostered a far less a stressful inquisitiveness.



What had been originally a mild form of the matriarchal/matrilineal association, where the first religions came out of the first attempts to make sense of what at first seemed as a lot of chaos in the world, quickly shifted to what was felt a need for some form of organization to combat that sense of chaos. The most likely way of making sense of something which doesn't at first makes sense is to relate to something which is understandable, at least to the degree anything could be understood in those times. In this case, just as the women used the earth goddess as a means of countenancing sex and birthing and the former bountiness of the land, so the hunter leaders used the human-as-example forms. Gods, like goddesses, were created as analogies to explain the unpredictables of the world - oversized invisible humanlike beings who controlled the weather, crop growth, and so forth, with the same degree of inconsistency which had been observed among fellow humans. As this, under the harsher and different conditions of the north, seemed to be a more correct viewing of things, the analogies quickly became considered as if actuals, in a much more formidable form than were the goddesses - and which were then used as means of controlling the members of the groups. Goddesses still were acknowledged, but they shared with gods. Moreover, such matters as the sensual/sexuality of the society of the southern climes did not get very developed in the north - sex was largely for procreational purposes, and too many children made difficulties in distributing food supplies, as the herbs used for birth control were not as easily found up north.



The earliest remaindered Art stems from this transitional period of time, that of the Cave Arts, found mostly among caves in France and Spain. That art existed before their time can be deduced by the high quality of the works found on the walls and ceilings of these caves. But, of course, the earlier works would have been lost in time, just as was the case in the other settlements along the eastern shores of the Mediterranean. Wood and skins and their like do not last very well over the extensive millenias. There are many theories regarding the purposes of these cave paintings, many of which were biases by the presumption that ancient societies were patrilineal like most historical ones. But such, as shown was not the case, and therefore required different perspectives on those paintings. These paintings, for one, span the breadth of several millenia, thereby covering both matriarchal and patriarchal societies. There is little doubt that some of the earlier works were at least for sure used as decorations for the cave home. Nor is there doubt that those who did those paintings were, at least in large part, women, many having children with them while they plied the colors to the walls - as, like with pottery, hand and fingerprints attest. If paintings first, then, took place while there were matriarchal societies living at these locations, the interpretations of these works makes for a different understanding of why these works, and just how much they really were due to the oft cited "shaman magic imparting success to the hunt" routine. Art is concerned with what is considered of importance, hence the effort of taking the trouble of re-presenting. But importance does not necessarily mean of considered intrinsic value - it can also reflect something which profoundly impresses. It is hard in this day and age to imagine what it would have been like to come upon vast herds of large animals. The closest would be the last century's buffalo herds of the Midwest, or the flocks of passenger pigeons said to have darkened the sky with their immensity. Then consider how much more such an event would have been to those ancient people - certainly momentous enough to be considered important enough to depict on cave walls.



It would only be later, when the society turned heavily to the hunter kind that there might have become a sort of mystic notion imparted to the paintings, perhaps an attempt to divert the mother goddess view to one more in line with the harsh land of the gods. Then, with the shifting of the game to other areas, there became the leaving of the cave entirely, taking a more nomadic existence back across the land, down to more southern climes.



Now, virtues, as expressed by the syndromes, implies ethics which encompass those virtues. The ethical code of the northern hunter societies, as was to be expected, derived from out of the agonic taking tribal syndrome. It was essentially the ethics of stealing, because the attribute of taking implies the other end, of being taken, and also implies the zero-sum perspective of the world, wherein one's gain is at another's expense - which is what all the other animals essentially have: eat or be eaten, take or be taken. It was, essentially, a justification for reverting to acting like human-style animals. Even tho these early humans, like all humans, had the capacity to think, that is to abstract to at least some degree, to be able to make judgments - the form of ethics became modeled, almost inevitably, after the only mode that was outrightly noticed by them, that of the animals around them. By the time these groups encountered trading, these societies had already formed a hard and fast code based on the agonic mode. Raiding others' territories successfully, as well as other aspects of the hunt, evolved the virtue of "prowess", to achieve this prowess, then, required "obedience" and "respecting hierarchy" for the group, as well as "loyalty". These comprise the basic virtues of the agonic mode syndrome. It also explains why such extreme agonic societies, such as the latter dynasties of ancient Egypt, used animal characteristics as their gods - for these animals adhered to the code "effortlessly", as part of their nature, and this was considered a superior trait, something to be emulated. The same can be said of those early civilizations in the Americas, which were founded by patriarchal groups which had migrated across the straits. Thus no American civilizations were ever matriarchal, and why in the land of lushness there arose such agonic societies as the Incas and Mayans and Aztecs which rivaled the Egyptians in being so authoritarian.



When the game patterns again shifted, these northerners, some, went south - and came into contact with the cities and civilizations that, as noted, flourished there. They also came into contact with something else - a whole different view of the female and her relationship to society.



To reiterate, the political/religious structuring of the matriarchal societies was that of the Mother Goddess with, as the word matriarchal means, the female as the prevailing sex and the male as a subserving one. While by the time of the patrilineal hunter society invasion this was more nominal than anything else, resting mostly with the matrilineal means of lineage, and the earth mother being referred to more as an allegory than actual - to those invaders, it was an absolutely intolerable situation. These patrilineal/patriarchal societies, as noted, subserved the females, some very denegratingly so, having by this time completely altering out any referring in their religions of goddesses. The two systems could not co-exist. Those holding to the taking code could not permit sanction of a competing code, especially one which would negate their established power structures and upset their status quo. "Shun trading' was a defense against that alternate viewpoint of the matriarchal societies, even as it was later admitted, tho reluctantly, that there was much value being gained by having the riches acquired by trading.



There was a problem, too, in understanding trading, by their standards - they viewed the world as a zero-sum matter, and thus, somehow, trading had to have been in some way a matter of stealing, from distant shores at least. They could not conceive of a sum-plus view, only a greater measure of riches acquired from other rich places distantly. Thus trading became a sort of "necessary evil". the forms followed thru, but with suspicion - and, as such, it had to be controlled as much as possible, yet still expect to get the gaining out of it. This was morally done by disparing it as much as possible, and then hobbling its activities by as much restrictions as could be devised. And to do that, you had to take it all over - hence all the wars and episodes of conquests that dominated the fertile crescent at the dawn of history.



Which raises another question - if these matriarchal societies existed for thousands of years, building great cities of civilization into the fertile crescent, then spreading thru trading across into the Mediterranean, establishing outposts all along the coastlines, and into the European interior, as far as the British Isles, how could such obviously superior societies, so advanced in so many ways, be overthrown by barbarians? It would seem that the answer may be, sadly as it may be true, that after thousands of years of the trading syndrome, the "warrior" mentality, psychologically speaking, most likely deteriorated mightily for lack of necessity for developing it more - thus enabling the barbarians to gain the amount of hold they did when they first invaded.



The psychology of the two kinds of world view, the trading and the taking, were and are quite different from each other. The taking syndrome was tribalistic, whose members were raised to consider themselves as parts of groups, a valued quality when it comes to matters of organized theft. A group can overwhelm better than several individuals because the hierarchical structure makes for greater cohesion of purpose. Moreover, there is the psychological aspect of "us" versus "them" which is not as pronounced as a class among individuals as it is within a group, thus giving greater impetus to the achievement of conquering goals as opposed to the defensiveness of the individuals taken as a group. This is especially so when, in their zeal to maintain the patriarchal social structure, they were willing to slaughter wholesale all but the prepubescent females as the quickest way of obtaining female subjugation and ending any matriarchal rule. The consequence of this is the instituting of slavery, which was a human offshoot of the pastoral practice of domestication [which was why, with the conquerings by the patriarchal societies, slavery has always existed as a way of life from earliest historical times to only a hundred years ago or so - and still exists among the more virulent patriarchal groups of today; whether it is called by that name or not, the essence is the same].



The trading syndrome is one ennobling individualism. individuals qua individuals are not prone to yield and submit - they make poor slaves, always being apt to insubordination. So, the simplest way to be rid of them is - to be rid of them. Hence besides the females mentioned, there was also wholesale slaughtering of entire towns, decimations of entire cultures across the ancient world [ it has even been recorded and dealt with as a virtue [!!] in the Bible]. Yet, by the same token, it had come to be perceived that without at least some of the inhabitants, the whole richness of the trading world would come down completely, leaving poverty for all in its wake.



Thus there was the allowing of trading, but hobbling it as much as possible, considering it "necessary evil", yet still removing all traces of the matriarchal social structures - including to the extent of rewriting all the legends of the matriarchal into patriarchal gods and destroying as much as possible the originals. This meant imposing a two-tier system, the "commoners", the original inhabitants, and what became known as the aristocracy, the conquering ones - and it also meant elevating, where it hadn't existed before, males to the authoritating positions within the trading [indeed, to render all positions as male positions]. It also created, for the conquerors, because of having slaves, the leisure time which they were encouraged to make rich use of - which didn't amount to much since they in turn had to be almost constantly on war footing against other invaders out to do the same thing they had done: conquer.



Then there is the psychological influence of envy - perhaps the most potent of the reasons for the successes of the patriarchal conquerings. As noted by William L. Davidson in defining it, "envy is aimed at persons, and implies dislike of one who possesses what the envious man himself covets or desires, and a wish to harm him... There is in it... a consciousness of inferiority to the person envied, and a chafing under this consciousness..." [Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, 1912] [my emphasis]. It has been around since before mankind. It appears to be a trait displayed in any group in which there is a deviancy from the established norm. it appears to be an outpouring consequence of the fear which results from considerations relating to the value of the being to the group. It stems not only from those low in the scale of hierarchy, but in the leadership as well, wherein there is the fear of displacement from another who can command attention better. It, of course, stems from the agonic mentality, and in humans came from the patriarchal societies of the northern hunter tribes.



Yet is has never been considered to be a virtue. Quite the contrary. Human societies have persistently sought, as far as possible, to suppress it - it is a taking aspect which even negates the viability of the taking syndrome, as envy destroys the very social relationship necessary for any society to survive in any human fashion. This is to say that as an unofficial accord, in the hunter societies, where life was often little more than as human animals, it maintained the status quo. But, in a society with the trading syndrome, which is the uniquely human syndrome, it cannot function - it can only destroy, reducing all back to the level of that pre-existing hunter state.



As you will note, in reading this exerpt from my manuscript, it is the essence of tribalism, the harshness of needing survival as by a group in order to survive, the patriarchal assendancy over the matriarchial societies, that brought forth the commandment notion of ethics, and the disrespect of being considered as evil.....  and the acts of altruism [in spirit tho not in word, as it was not coined until the 17th century by Auguste Compte] as an integral aspect of the tribal mindset......  not out of benevolance and the flourishing of being human, but out of survival of the group, an 'emergency' view of ethics which became treated as permanent....  not out of kindness as such, but out of necessity of earlier times, and continued as hardened tradition.....


Post 13

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Audrey,

You've got to read this article by Joe Rowlands. It's fantastic, and offers a wonderful grasp of how altruism gets "codified."


Post 14

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,
This is the perfect article for me to read.  I am 3/4 through it and have to go to a study session, but I can't wait to finish it.  To be continued...

and thanks Robert for my introduction to the whole code concept


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Post 15

Monday, March 12, 2007 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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Altruism as (Mis)Used in the Biological Literature

Be aware that the concept altruism as used in biology always refers to actions which hurt an individual but which benefit his bloodline. In otherwords, and aunt dying for a niece is described as altruism.

Since animals do not have free will and their actions are either beneficial to the bloodline, or lead to extinction of that bloodline, their actions should not be seen as altruistic in the ethical sense as meant by Kant and Auguste Comte, who viewed an action as moral if it helped others without any benefit to the agent. For Kant, if you help someone else because you enjoy it it does not count as virtuous but as selfish! Real altruism in those terms would be like a crow taking food from its own chicks and feeding a snake instead.

The actions of bees who die defending the hive is not altruism. In a sense, given their genetic makeup, bees and other hive-organisms are more like the cells of a body, with the queen serving as the hive's ovaries. The hive itself is the real organism, and the survival of the hive is in the interest of the bloodline of the hive, not the survival of any one worker bee.

It is unfortunate that this usage of helping one's kin is accepted as "altruism" in biology.

As for helping the disabled, etc., if you truly derive joy from doing so (and most people, to greater and lesser extents do) then aiding them is not altruism unless the joy one takes is irrational and self-destructive.

Not being an altruist does not require that one laugh at bums, cut in line, always grab the biggest portion, let the door slam on the person behind you leaving the store, get the best parking spot, or refuse to help the blind or elderly cross the street.

Ted Keer

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Post 16

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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The Labor Theory of Value suggested that the value of a good was based on how much labor it took to create it.  It has a superficial appeal.  If something took a lot of work to make, of course it should be priced higher than something that took little.  The theory is wrong, though.  People don't value it because it takes more work.  Instead, people build it, despite the extra work involved, because it sells for more.

That was my favorite part of Rowland's essay because I am an ECON major so it helped make some sense of the altruist's mind set.  So now I am going to continue on with my original question, but rephrase a little.

If I am to understand Ted correctly, then to give because I get some joy out of it is not altruism.  I am still under the impression that my giving for my own happiness's sake, though I do not will or wish anyone else to do likewise is morally wrong in the objectivist view.  Is this correct?



 


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Post 17

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Audrey asked:

I am still under the impression that my giving for my own happiness's sake, though I do not will or wish anyone else to do likewise is morally wrong in the Objectivist view.  Is this correct?

No.  This remains one of most common misconceptions of Objectivism.

Your relationships with external reality (existence) and internal reality (consciousness) remain your two most important relationships with reality via the virtues of productiveness and pride, respectively, both of which require rationality.  In other words, Objectivism treats the fully functional human being as living as independently as if he lived alone on a deserted island.  That said, such a person lives a much better life in a land populated with other such beings so they can enjoy trade based on specialized divisions of labor.  Moreover, they crave visibility as a psychological need.

See this article for more:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Setzer/Objectivism_and_the_Five_Loves.shtml

The bottom line: Relating to the right kinds of other human beings, while secondary to relating to nature independently of others, can still bring great joy to life.


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Post 18

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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I am still under the impression that my giving for my own happiness's sake, though I do not will or wish anyone else to do likewise is morally wrong in the objectivist view.  Is this correct
Like Luke said, this is a popular misconception. What would be morally wrong would be to give even at your own peril, or to the peril of those to which you give ("lost" or "hopeless" causes). The peril being no real or sustainable reward in the end.

If I were a wealthy woman, I wouldn't hesitate to fund the educations of young,  struggling Objectivist students. (ARI's been doing this for years with their Fountainhead Essay Contests.) Rand herself paid for her niece's education, and it wouldn't surprize me at all if Rand helped other students.  

It's about what you value, that's all. If your values are rational, life serving, and enabling, give to your heart's content, but not to it's break. Don't end up living in a box because you gave everything you own to PiTA (I'm kidding!) or to TAS or ARI.  

I hold a real and special pride for talented doctors and specialists who travel to distant, sometimes dangerous, realms to perform life saving, or life serving, operations on children and adults (free of charge) who's lives have been altered by circumstances completely out of their control.  Babies with cleft palates, and young adults with crippling deformities.  These individuals, who don't hesitate to "fix it," make me proud of the whole human race.  Frankly, I don't think I could ever do anything to compare.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 3/13, 6:14pm)


Post 19

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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"Give to your heart's content, but not to it's break" - Teresa

Both Luke's and Teresa's comments immediately above are excellent, especially T's quote. The important thing in human ethics is integration into a happy life. I myself am heterodox in that I claim that happiness, not life per se, is the standard of value. That is I argue that happiness, when truly understood as the long term result of integrated joy-providing actions, is the way one should judge one's values large and small. Note that I am not speaking merely of pleasure - a momentary sensation that ends once the stimulus ends. And I am not speaking of such perverse joys as sadism, revenge, and so on, which may provide some joy, but which cannot be integrated into a serene life. I am speaking of such long term joys as career and family, friendships and hobbies. If one has those values set, and does not act in such a way as to endanger them, one still has a lot of time to fill and a lot of non-destructive joy-giving activities which one can pursue. This can certainly include "charity". The best charity is usually to teach someone or to employ them if possible. Read Oliver Sacks wonderful works The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and An Anthropologist on Mars on his fight to find outlets for autists, idiots savants and other people with special natures to use the talents they do have to find joy in their lives. His work is a double blessing, for him and his patients, who are otherwise often wasted human furniture.

If such things as volunteering to help others, watching sunsets, holding doors for people, letting others merge into traffic before you, or simply handing the newspaper that you have finished reading to someone else on the train give you joy, and do not conflict with your larger goals, then you are neither being an altruist nor a bad objectivist. Letting other motorists pass while your wife is in labor in the seat next to you - Ned Flandersism - is bad. Doing your duty just because it is your duty is exactly what most Nazis did.

Also, Audrey, your mention of the labor theory of value is quite important. The altruist always wants credit for the effort - (and usually not even the effort, but just the intentions) not the results. Democrats are "good" because for 75 years they have spent money to "help the poor" - to what result? When free market policies are advocated which actually lift people out of poverty, where's the altruism in that? That's mere "greed." Note that the altruist actually needs people to be suffering, otherwise, who would he "help"?

I'll repeat it: "Give to your heart's content, but not to it's break."

Ted Keer



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