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Post 20

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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I've posted my thoughts on "multiculturalism" and "Western Pride" before here and here.

 I am not sure if the ARIans understand any other world cultures at all other than their own. One must look at those other cultures in their historical and anthropological context, before any reasonable judgement can be reached.   

I very much agree with Jenna. To consider a whole package deal "Western Culture" is somewhat superior than another whole culture such as the "Eastern Culture", whatever it is, shows a gross ignorance.

(Edit: Link corrected). 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/26, 10:31am)


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Post 21

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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I assume the official Objectivist moral judgement of the world culture is that the "Western Culture" is superior to all others. And here are the questions that I asked before and I ask them again now:

What is "Western culture"? Isn't Christianity, Socialism, Nazism, post-modernism, etc. also part of Western cultures? Isn't Communism also originated from Western philosophies? Aren't the two most devastating World Wars in the whole human history fought mostly among the (developed!) Western Countries?

Let's always specify what is good in the Western cultures, such as democracy, capitalism, individualism, advancement in science and technology, etc., and at the same time recognize those irrational aspects of the Western cultures that are still vastly dominant in today's Western society.



Post 22

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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And Jenna, I blame Chinese government on Western Culture, ie. Communism. ;-)


Post 23

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:

I very much agree with Jenna. To consider a whole package deal "Western Culture" is somewhat superior than another whole culture such as the "Eastern Culture", whatever it is, shows a gross ignorance.


I think these issues are certainly difficult to discuss without some hurt feelings as I think people tend to think culture means one is genetically predisposed to follow it. I won't denigrate the accomplishments that came out of Eastern cultures, but I can't help to think Hong and Jenna, because you are both Chinese, you take my words as some kind of racial slight?

I don't think anyone is genitically predisposed to follow any culture. I don't think Islamists are not capable of rejecting their religion and embracing the western values of science and reason. Because we attach a regional quality to a culture, e.g. Western culutre, bears no relevance on the ability for any individual to embrace or reject a culture.

Hong you write in one of these threads:

What is "western culture"? There are Judism, Christianity, philosophies of ancient Greeks, Renaissance, modern sciences, ideas of Democracy, Capitalism, Objectivism, etc., there are also Imperialism, Marxism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and now post-modernism, etc., etc. Shall we cherry-pick?


Whatever amount of evil that came from Western culture, cannot negate the overwhelming amount of good that came of it. Science, reason, liberty, are probably the most crucial and vitally important idealogies that have produced the most amount of good in this world. Indeed, it is our current existence and willingness to embrace science, reason and liberty that has given us a life of convenience with such a high standard of living.

These ideals have their derivation in ancient Greek society and the European Renaissance, thus the term "Western" was coined to label the region of the world it originated from. I don't think it should be read into any further than that.





Post 24

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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John,
It is because Jenna and I are familiar with both cultures, therefore we have a more broader perspective than many people here.

For example, "Science, reason, liberty" are not exclusively Western values. Chinese people value them as well since long long time ago. But "democracy" is uniquely Western. I believe.

No, I don't think our feelings will be hurt by you. But I do ask that people at least try to understand a culture first before issuing moral judgement. 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/26, 10:58am)


Post 25

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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Hong, I certainly don't know everything there is to know about Eastern cultures. I grew up in America, and my parents immigrated from Greece, so for the most part I've only been subjected to Western cultures. But I think I'm taking a more historical view of culture and I think I know enough at this point to be able to pass a moral judgement. I don't think I have to be Chinese to be capable of understanding what there is to know about Eastern culture. Similarly I don't think you have to be European to know everything there is to know about Western culture.

It's not at all a judgement about race or ethnicity, as this would mean some kind of ideal of collectivism, it's only a judgement about ideas themselves.

For example, "Science, reason, liberty" are not exclusively Western values


And I definitely agree with you Hong. But to seek out the small amount of thought on science, reason and liberty that came out of Eastern culture and morally equate that with the level of thought on science, reason and liberty that came from Wesern culture I think is fallacious. I don't think in this context they are equivalent, and I don't think it had anything to do with race. None whatsoever.

I'm not one of those militant Ann Coutlter types, and I know the type and I can understand the hesitance to accept what I am saying as morons like Ann Coutler have hijacked the term Western culture to mean something else. I love eating ethnic food especially Asian food. I probably visit either a Japanese, Chinese or Thai restaurant at least twice a week and I'm planning a trip to Asia one day and I can't wait to go. I'm more than willing to embrace any good parts of any culture but I won't equate the totality of those cultures as morally equivalent.

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Post 26

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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I think John has captured the essence of the difference between what is popularly known as "multiculturalism" and simple appreciation for culture. It is perfectly reasonable to take pleasure in enjoying ethnic foods and high art from other cultures, especially since both are sorely lacking in mainstream America ;) For example, I think there is much to be said for the way that certain parts of Europe (in particular France, Spain and Italy) view food. Having spent time in all three of those countries, I can say that they definitely have a greater appreciation than most Americans do for the pleasure that a good meal can bring. It's something I admire and that I can incorporate into my life because it is consistent with my principles.

"Multiculturalism," which has already been much-discussed, is in fact far more insular and (to use Rand's term) Balkanizing than apprecation for culture. It views cultures as separate entities that define reality for those who adopt them, rejecting any attempt to "take the best of each." These sorts of multiculturalists are the same sort who went head-to-head with Dawkins, Gould and Sokal in the "Science Wars" of the 1990's and received a sound intellectual thrashing.

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Post 27

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, I agree with John here. Multiculturism is tantamount to multi-philosophicalism. Culture isn't just about lifestyle, dress or dietary preferences; it includes views about morality, social ideals and politics as well. For that reason, multiculturalism has no place in a rational society.

For example, the Muslim "culture" - which devalues women and oppresses them, devalues modernity and advocates a return to the Middle Ages, devalues reason and endorses religious superstition, devalues freedom of expression and calls for punishment of heretics, devalues capitalism and demands theocratic rule - cannot be given an equal place alongside Western culture, which largely respects individual rights, recognizes political equality between men and women, values reason, science, progress, technology, freedom of expression and capitalism, and upholds the separation of church and state. The Western secular and Islamic cultures are fundamentally antagonistic and incompatible and cannot coexist within the same geographical area.

Yes, the Muslims have a right to practice their religion, so long as they do not impose their anti-secular, theocratic values on others, so long as they do not demand special dispensation from the laws and regulations governing people's actions within a rational, secular society. Unfortunately, it is an essential part of the religion of Islam to demand that the government reflect its moral and political values.

By the same token, Catholicism cannot demand that hospitals and clinics ban abortion or abstain from giving advice on contraception or from dispensing birth control pills to women or condoms to men. Nor can "naturist" cultures demand that schools and employers allow them to attend classes and their place of employment in the buff. Nor can the drug culture demand that its members be allowed to get high on the job.

Multiculturalism, applied consistently and across the board, entails a relativist view of values and morality and a contradictory conception of rights and responsibilities. The whole notion is a spin-off from egalitarianism - the idea that no one is better than or superior to anyone else. It consists in an egalitarianism not just of people but of values and ideas. All people and all ideas - whether brilliant or stupid, exalted or depraved, good or evil - must be accorded the same acknowledgement and the same respect. Multiculturalism is not just an assault on rationality; it is an assault on values - on the recognition that some people and some ideas are better than others.

The logical result of multiculturalism in the academy is the devaluation of education itself, which is necessarily preferential and anti-egalitarian: knowledge and truth are better than ignorance and error. Thus, the modern academy's vaunted dedication to an enlightened society may soon go the way of all the other values it has abandoned for the sake of political correctness, a doctrine which ironically enough is willing to give equal recognition to all cultures except those that are politically incorrect, in the face of which it becomes militantly monolithic and monocultural!

- Bill

P.S. I wrote the above before I saw the other posts complaining that Western culture is not necessarily superior to "Eastern culture." "Western culture" refers to the values of the Enlightenment and of the Age of Reason, which ultimately gave rise to the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the greatness of America as it was originally conceived. To the extent that these values exist in Eastern societies, they are quintessentially "Western" values. The term "Western" in this context is not to be construed geographically but philosophically. It refers to the ideas of the Enlightenment, which arose in the West, but have spread to other parts of the world.
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 6/26, 12:34pm)


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Post 28

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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I probably visit either a Japanese, Chinese or Thai restaurant at least twice a week...
But most of them are not even authentic! ;-)

No, I don't think you know the so called Eastern Culture nearly enough to make any educated judgement of the "totality" of that culture. I don't think I do either. That's why I will always specify clearly and exactly which ideas I consider good and which I consider bad, and not to lump everything into a "totality" of a culture.

And we should not ignore the historically context of ideas. For example, the much valued "individualism" in today's time would not be the most practical idea for survival in Stone Age or a primitive agricultural society, like, 50 years back in China.

And what is considered as small trickles of "thought on science, reason and liberty that came out of Eastern culture" was considered pinnacle of human civilization a few hundreds years back. Who knows what would happen a few hundred years down the road.



Post 29

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:29pmSanction this postReply
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....the term "Western" was coined to label the region of the world it originated from. I don't think it should be read into any further than that.
Then isn't Islam also a Western Culture? It is originated essentially in the same place as Judaism/Christianity.


Post 30

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:

But most of them are not even authentic! ;-)


Yeah that's probably true. I've seen some scary stuff on Anthony Bourdain's show "No Reservations" but I'm willing to try anything first. I've eaten sea urchin, sheep's brain and cow testicles, so I think I'm crazy enough to try anything. I love food and my weight shows it so if it's edible, I'll try it! :)

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Post 31

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Hong said:

 

I very much agree with Jenna. To consider a whole package deal "Western Culture" is somewhat superior than another whole culture such as the "Eastern Culture", whatever it is, shows a gross ignorance.

 

How might we compare cultures?  Well first we have to give some meaning to the term “Western Culture” and “Eastern Culture”  What exactly is “Easter Culture”?  Are we talking about Shintoism?  Confucianism?  Buddhism?  Islam? Are we talking about the ideas originated by “Eastern” people?  Or ideas actively practiced by them?  Or both?  Or all of these averaged out?  Are we talking about Vietnamese culture or Chinese culture or Japanese culture or Filipino culture (all very different in many areas)   Does “Eastern Culture” include the middle east?  Or does “Eastern Culture” simply mean “Non western” ?

 

“Western culture” has a much more homogenous manifestation to it, originating generally in Caucasian European’s and descendants but also rapidly incorporating many useful ideas from many other cultures, something which many “eastern” cultures vehemently oppose.  Chinese culture, for instance, has repeatedly “dropped the ball” so to speak.  What did it do in response to discovering a new world?  It beached it’s massive fleet, burned it’s ships, and built a giant wall.  The new world should have been filled by Chinese explorers 100 years before Europeans.  In the 1940’s the nationalists lost to the communists and again China turned inward.  Had china embraced markets and internationalism instead of communism and isolationism at that time they would no doubt still be the reigning world superpower, there would have been no Korean war, no Vietnam war, no Cold War, and probably no lasting monstrous empire of the Soviet Union.  China was burning coal 500 years before Europe was, and invented gun powder while Europeans were still burning witches and having jousts.  But what did they do with those great innovations?  When Europe mastered the use of coal it created machines and started the whole of the industrial revolution.  When Europe discovered gun powder it helped to bring the ideas of liberty, individual rights, and the ability to pursue your own dreams to many other cultures.  The history of China is one of mostly feuding empires and murderous tribal warfare. 

 

If you were to say that anything that originated in western thought (white Europeans or ancient Greece) is western, then you would also have to include Islam, since the god of Islam is the same of Judaism and in fact Islam embraces the old testament as a holy book as well.  So If anything influenced by judeo \ Christianity is ‘western’ than Islam is also western, that kind of inclusion pretty much renders the term useless.  So while communism originated in western thoughts by these standards (Plato’s republic, after all, reads like a communist treatise) it was never any western cultures that adopted it and practiced it.  Which speaks more of a culture, coming up with an idea or having whole nations or tribal groups embrace it? 

 

Is it right to identify Nazism and Socialism with “western culture”  Nazism was nothing but theocratic fascist racism, something the Japanese culture is intimately familiar with.  Eastern culture is certainly not without it’s own murderous incarnations of Nazism.  Same for socialism, the idea of taking from the producers and giving to the needy is certainly not only a “western discovery” but the idea of capitalism, liberty, democracy, and the pursuit of happiness primarily is.

 

Jenna said:

 

And, thinking differently because my language, social life, food, youth, etc. is Eastern rather than Western-- and there are differences-- that's not morally wrong, as long as those universal human values (such as sanctity of life, growth, etc.) aren't being squashed. I think that being able to look at things in the Eastern wholistic way as well as Western reductionist way is an advantage as it helps me keep context.

 

And yet where did these universal human values originate?  What culture promulgated them to all other cultures of the world that had not yet independently discovered them?  To what extent have other cultures discovered and implemented them?  Were any of the tribes of China democratic and market based before the great empire was unified?  Any groups in India or Pakistan? 

 

Science, Reason, Capitalism, individual rights, liberal democracies, constitutions, all were fully embraced by what in modern times is referred to as the “West”  (e.g. America, Britain, Australia, etc)  Mysticism, irrationality, communism, racism, group think, were all regularly and wholly embraced by many eastern cultures, and *especially* middle eastern.  Was the Soviet Union a part of the west?  The Eastern Bloc certainly didn’t think so, and generally today people when speaking of the west seem to almost always include as a core of it capitalism.  But the definition of words change over time, what do you mean when you say “western culture” ?

 

Any one of any race or religion can come to America and become an American, I can never go to China and become Chinese.  I think that says a lot about a culture right there, since a fundamental component of it is race.  You and Jenna may assert that it is unfair to consider western culture superior to eastern, but where do you and your families live?  You are both here partaking in western culture, not there embracing eastern cultures.  I can’t help but think that says a lot about how much you value a culture.

 

For good or ill the very idea of finding value in other cultures and respecting seems to be a western trait, as the histories of the western world and eastern world attests.  And what is the vile post-modernism of the west but something wrought forth from the influence of eastern culture’s mysticism?  In it’s conceptual implications its hardly different from the nihilism of Buddhism.  (Hey if you get to blame communism on the west I’m going to blame post-modernism on the east =P )

 

But we are not talking about chopsticks vs forks here but the most important and fundamental core aspects of the things you should truly judge the value of a culture by, it’s respect for individuals.  As long as people are allowed to acquire the needs to survive, to keep most of the products of their labor, to have a cultural acceptance of choosing their own way, and this is clearly something that more nations that are now called “the west” do, then I do not care how they dress or what utensils they choose to eat with. 

 

I deeply admire many aspects of many cultures, from Judaism and the Jesuit Priesthood to Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese cultures.  I enjoy the stories and tales I see coming from Hong Kong far more than the drivel Hollywood produces, and I have no doubt I would enjoy many “ballywood” movies as well (movies of course being one manifestation of representations of culture, I cant yet read any estern languages)  KI Truly find many cultures fascinating but am limited in the time I have available on this planet to learn about them.  I am currently learning to speak Vietnamese and routinely write and publish articles trying to raise awareness of the brutal oppression of the communist government on the 80 million people of Vietnam, hosting a “Free Vietnam” web site and working on translating important works to Vietnamese.  Do I think “western culture” is superior to Vietnamese?  Well any culture that embraces the fundamentals of human liberty and reason is superior to cultures which do not, it is as simple as that to me.  I think that anyone familiar with my posts here knows I have a great deal of empathy for the things that many eastern cultures have suffered, especially under totalitarianism and communism (as my Communism and Moral Ambiguity article and Rape of Nan King posts I think attest) but I will always find any culture inferior which does not recognize and respect the basic rights of sentient beings.


Post 32

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:

Then isn't Islam also a Western Culture? It is originated essentially in the same place as Judaism/Christianity.


Well it's from the Middle East, but one can say it originated in the Western Hemisphere, however we ought not to drop context here. The term Western culture does not presume anything and everything that was created in the Western Hemisphere falls under this definition of the term. Perhaps you find the word inadequate and misleading because it has a connotation of region to it. But I don't think that matters.

Post 33

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Hong and Jenna, if you haven't seen it already, please read the P.S. to my Post #27.

- Bill

Post 34

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:

P.S. I wrote the above before I saw the other posts complaining that Western culture is not necessarily superior to "Eastern culture." "Western culture" refers to the values of the Enlightenment and of the Age of Reason, which ultimately gave rise to the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the greatness of America as it was originally conceived. To the extent that these values exist in Eastern societies, they are quintessentially "Western" values. The term "Western" in this context is not to be construed geographically but philosophically. It refers to the ideas of the Enlightenment, which arose in the West, but have spread to other parts of the world.


Yes I would definitely agree with this definition. As usual well said Bill!

Post 35

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:


P.S. I wrote the above before I saw the other posts complaining that Western culture is not necessarily superior to "Eastern culture." "Western culture" refers to the values of the Enlightenment and of the Age of Reason, which ultimately gave rise to the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the greatness of America as it was originally conceived. To the extent that these values exist in Eastern societies, they are quintessentially "Western" values. The term "Western" in this context is not to be construed geographically but philosophically. It refers to the ideas of the Enlightenment, which arose in the West, but have spread to other parts of the world.


Yes I would definitely agree with this definition. As usual well said Bill!
Yes Bill same here, obviously in my post I listed quite a few ways to not define "western" or "eastern" but skirted around a positive definition because I had not completely identified one, thanks for you post and I second John in his "well said".

- Michael F Dickey


Post 36

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Hong said:

I've posted my thoughts on "multiculturalism" and "Western Pride" before here and here.
Hong,

In that thread you said:

"I do agree that, as Jason emphasized, that reason, science, individualism, and capitalism in Western culture is superior to all other world cultures at the moment."
It seems we are in agreement, as these are the only things worth objectively evaluating a culture on.  After they reach that baseline, (including of course individidual rights and representated governments) as far as I am concerned, to each their own.
 
Michael F Dickey


Post 37

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, I agree with John here. Multiculturism is tantamount to multi-philosophicalism. Culture isn't just about lifestyle, dress or dietary preferences; it includes views about morality, social ideals and politics as well. For that reason, multiculturalism has no place in a rational society.
Okay okay!!! 
 
  I just hate to think of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, that's all. 
 
 If there are any gems hidden in a culture,  "free'er" Western ones are sure to pick them up, so leave my ethnic restaurants, African clay beads, and Hmong dance festivals alone, okay?? 
 
 
 
Great post by Mike Dickey, btw.
 


Post 38

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, I agree with John here. Multiculturism is tantamount to multi-philosophicalism. Culture isn't just about lifestyle, dress or dietary preferences; it includes views about morality, social ideals and politics as well. For that reason, multiculturalism has no place in a rational society.
Okay okay!!!

I just hate to think of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, that's all.

If there are any gems hidden in a culture, "free'er" Western ones are sure to pick them up, so leave my ethnic restaurants, African clay beads, and Hmong dance festivals alone, okay??
Well, of course. I used to live in San Francisco, famous for its fine ethnic cuisine - from Mexican to Cuban to Eritrean to Indian and Pakistani to Chinese to Vietnamese to Japanese, to Russian, etc. If a food is part of some culture, you can get it there.

Then I moved to Hayward across the Bay. What a change! The best burrito I can get here doesn't approach those that I could get in San Francisco. And there is a Russian bakery in S.F. that makes real Russian rye bread, with nothing but whole rye flour, buttermilk, water, yeast and salt. I don't know how they can get the dough to rise like that, since there's not much gluten in rye flour. In any case, it's nothing like the Americanized version of Russian rye, and it's made fresh three times a week. I guess it's a secret Ukrainian recipe or something.

And of course, you can always get good Chinese food in San Francisco. A Chinese colleague of mine who has since returned to Jakarta took me to a Chinese restaurant in Fremont, just south of where I live which he said had "authentic" Chinese food. He wanted me to try it. I didn't like it. It was too bland, not at all what you get in a typical Chinese restaurant.

As for the Hmong, they're among us now, and the Hmong who are humongous are really among us. :-\
Great post by Mike Dickey, btw.
I thought so too.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 6/26, 5:05pm)


The trick, Bill, is the starter.... most bakeries now do not mess with it, as it means time lost [or priced added]  to making it profitable....


Post 39

Monday, June 26, 2006 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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.

 

BLACK RYE BREAD

Juoda ruginë duona

3 k (6 lbs) coarsely ground rye flour

1 l (1 quart) water

starter, salt

STARTER

1/2 k (1 lb) rye flour

50 g (2 oz) fresh yeast

1 l (1 quart) warm water

Starter is used to leaven black rye bread. Starter is usually a leftover of dough from the last bread baking. Just before baking, the saved piece of dough is dissolved in warm water and is added to the newly mixed dough. Should there be no starter a new starter is prepared before mixing new dough. Mix all starter ingredients, keep in a warm spot to ensure maximum fermentation. This starter should be ready in 24 hours. Starter gives bread an agreeable, pleasant sour taste. Every starter has its own particular taste. Some homemakers add sour milk in place of water.

To make dough, heat water to 100-110F/40-45C, pour half of the flour, starter and mix well. Sprinkle dough with flour and set in a warm spot to ferment. During fermentation the volume of dough will almost triple. Fermentation is complete after about 14 hours. Then beat dough, add remaining flour, salt and knead well. Smooth top of dough, dampen with wet hands, cover and set in warm spot to rise for about 3 hours.

Prepare baking pans by lining them with maple or cabbage leaves or dust with flour.

Form oblong loaves, smooth tops with damp hands. Bake in preheated oven at 400F/200C, for about 2-3 hours. Bread is done when it gives off a solid sound. Dampen tops of loaves with cold water, cover loaves with a light linen cloth and let cool at room temperature. Do not place freshly baked loaves in a cold place for that will cause the crust to separate.

Black rye bread remains fresh for up to 2 weeks when refrigerated.

 


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