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Post 20

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Absolutely, Jonathan: from Hong Kong to Estonia, the 'flat tax' has been demonstrated as the best available option. Other East Europe countries are following the trend.

Joel Català


Post 21

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Michael regularly argues both sides of a position.  It is in his nature, kind of like the scorpion who stings the poor turtle carrying him across the stream :)

Post 22

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan:
(1) Yes,  a flat income tax would be more equitable than a progressive tax.  I had forgotten that option. I fell into a false dichotomy of "progressive-regressive." 

(1.b.)  Yes, it would be fair to exempt the lower quintile, at least, if not the lower two from an income tax.

(2)  I am an anarcho-capitalist.  I believe that this is consistent with the principles of Objectivism. 

(2a.)  My comments here in this discussion on the contradictions in having the government operate a lottery, or on the best form of taxes, are based on accepting the premise of a limited constitutional government.  

Kurt:
A bridge whose span is half of an ellipse spans a river.  The bridge is 100 meters long.  At the highest point, it is 30 meters.  What is its height 25 meters from the center? 
Wait!  Why are we spanning this river?  Whose property is it??  Is the bridge made of Rearden Metal???

 I enjoy solving problems and sometimes I do that without asking critical questions.  It is my nature.  I am a Scorpio, born November 10.  However, I think it has more to do with my nature as a Myer-Briggs ENTJ.  Some here might say that Myer-Briggs is a form of "astrology" itself.  Say what you want about me, how would you finance a government according to the principles of Objectivism?

Similar considerations radiate from investigating the nature of taxes.  The cogent question was: Is coercion necessary to government?

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 6/02, 9:31am)


Post 23

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I do enjoy reading your posts.  Also glad that you didn't quite mean what I thought re/progressive taxation.  You do tweak people though!

Post 24

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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(I think several of your other points are interesting and worth response, but I'll have to address them later)

"5. A flat tax is necessarily regressive, falling heaviest on those least able to pay."

I don't see it. There are types of taxation which are progressive (US federal income tax due to rate brackets) or regressive (social security tax, due to fixed rate but with a cap). A true flat tax (fixed rate, no bracketing or caps) is neither progressive nor regressive though.

"7. Personally -- hold on -- I favor a progressive income tax. ... Short of that caveat, a progressive income tax is the most equitable way to pay for a constitutionally limited government in a free society. (Sorry, I know that pill was bitter, but now that it is swallowed, we can all feel better.)"

Obviously I favor the ideal - ie. no coercive taxation and of course reduce/eliminate government spending in areas it shouldn't be involved in. It is a valid question to ask though given that we have a bloated, involuntarily funded government if some forms of funding are worse or less-bad than others. Outside the overall govt spending amount (which drives the amount it takes one way or the other), the factors I see would be:
1) Amount of economic distortion (e.g. disincentives to labor or entrepeneurship, inducements to move labor or goods to black market)
2) Administrative/overhead cost (both direct waste of paying beaurocrats, as well as costs from having to collect, track, file, attempt to avoid/defer it, etc.)
3) Susceptibility to special interest manipulations, 'loopholes', and complexities (e.g. special provisions for children, the blind, poor, railroad workers, low emission vehicles, etc. etc.)

The current US income tax/social security tax/etc. system is fairly bad on these. Most proposals to replace it would be no better, with proponents typically viewing one or more of the factors through rose colored glasses. For example- a Forbes or other 'flat tax' could reduce 2. But despite a temporary 'clean slate' effect there is no reason to believe it would avoid special interest manipulations or distortions in any reasonable term. Universal sales tax proposals (such as the Linder/Boortz 'fair tax' which has had some passionate supporters recently) typically are even worse. They focus on just 'there won't be an IRS!' and ignore substantial new forms of admin/overhead cost, while also any elimination of special loopholes would only be a very temporary clean slate effect.

I think some slightly more radical changes to forms of taxation could be less bad. The Georgist idea of taxing land ownership (essential a form of federal property tax) is intriguing. It would still be subject to special interest concerns. However, I think it would have lower overhead than any of the income/sales tax mechanisms, as well as its economic distortions being less damaging. Of course from a pure economic theory, a lump-sum tax (such as a fixed $5000/person/year) can be considered distortion free. I can see some serious real-world problems with theory in this case though, especially in the case of the poor; I also see such a 'head tax' as being even less politically feasible to implement than anything else mentioned here.

My current candidate for 'least-bad' form of coercive government funding, however, is none of the above - it's infation. Taxation in whatever form is only one method used now to fund federal government; creating more $ to fund its activities is another key one. The Bush administration has been de facto moving this direction. The administration is despicable for other reasons such as significantly increasing spending and trying to hide/deny its inflation.

At a given spending level and with people aware of it, however, I see inflation as a less-bad means of funding than taxation. It instantly dilutes money from holders of $US, in proportion to how much they hold (which may also not be US citizens). The administrative cost is negligible compared to taxation, it's using the Fed mechanisms which are already in place. Indirect costs would be in the form of higher interest rates and if inflation rate was very unstable lending contracts having to have inflation clauses (which is sometimes already needed). Special interest manipulation would be certainly possible in who receives the new money first from the government - but that is a problem on the spending side, which exists with any form of taxation in addition to their special interest problems on the funding side.

As I said, inflation-funded government is not my ideal and is not something I've spent as much time thinking about; it's just what I currently see would be the least harmful given coercive funding. There may be some fatal holes in the above logic, and I'd actually enjoy seeing such problems or other ideas concerning forms of taxation and inflation.


Post 25

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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If the government only taxed by inflation, why would people want to use that currency? I think people would then tend to use some other currency for trading. A thirty five percent inflation rate! As soon as you got some USD, it would be in your interest to trade it for something else ASAP.

Post 26

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Yes, I think there is no magic bullet here except that no matter how you slice it, it is the volume of spending that matters.  If government spending is too high, it is too high, regardless of how it comes about. 

Post 27

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron, you obviously have given this a lot of hard thought.  Your suggestion that inflation is the least bad tax is compelling.  It could also have its own limitations.  As Kurt pointed out, too much spending is too much, regardless of how we pay for it.  In theory, a  capitalist society could have a government funded by inflation -- and at some point, the letters come flying in to Congress demanding that they stop spending.  It is workable.  To answer Dean Michael Gore's objection, you could say that we have this system now.  In other words, people know that the dollar loses value at some rate and they act accordingly now.  Heck the government even sells gold coins, effectively trading dollars for gold at the market rate. 


Post 28

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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I could be very wrong about the 35% inflation rate. How much does the USG bring in a year with taxes? What is the current inflation rate and total number of USD that exists?

Post 29

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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I was going to respond after more thought later, but the %age I'd already looked up the figures for:

In Feb 2006, M3 was $10.3 trillion. 2006 US federal budget (this includes discretionary and non) is estimated at $2.6T. So roughly 25% monetary inflation to accomodate the US govt for the year. That also means that a US govt at about 30% its current spending (presumably still very bloated by comparison to what we're talking about as minimal) would be covered by current inflation levels.


Post 30

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote: "5. A flat tax is necessarily regressive, falling heaviest on those least able to pay."

Aaron replied, "I don't see it. There are types of taxation which are progressive (US federal income tax due to rate brackets) or regressive (social security tax, due to fixed rate but with a cap). A true flat tax (fixed rate, no bracketing or caps) is neither progressive nor regressive though."

Michael may be thinking of a particular kind of flat tax, namely, a sales tax. It is true that a sales tax is regressive, because a poor person spends a larger percentage of his income on consumption than a rich person does. As a result, a sales tax will tax a greater percentage of a poor person's income than it will a rich person's.

But, of course, not every flat tax is a sales tax. A flat tax applied only to income would not be regressive, as it would tax the same percentage of a poor person's income as it would a rich person's.

- Bill

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Post 31

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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"1. It is said that a national lottery was one of the early suggestions from some of the founders of the republic.
...
3. Personally, I have no problem with a national lottery. I do not care if gambling is a vice. However, it does put the government into the gaming business."

Far more importantly, for funding a noncoercive government a national lottery simply wouldn't work. I hadn't heard of any founding fathers who proposed it, but know Rand has suggested it in her essay 'Government Financing in a Free Society'. She seemed naive in this suggestion and I don't think she had thought it through.

Many state lotteries operate at <50% payout, taking the remainder to pay for x government program, administration, etc. By comparison, casino slots typically are at 85%-97% payout, and (assuming basic knowledge of the game) most dice or card table games are high 90s. It's not plausible that if casino and other gambling was allowed that there would still be a market for a woefully low paying lottery (or government-run 50% payout slots, etc.). Lotteries are only viable now because states coercively prevent most competing forms of gambling.

"4. Ayn Rand suggested that corporations could pay a fee to have their contracts certified. ... That means that we are not entitled by right to protection via the courts, but must pay for it up front. It would make "handshakes" unenforceable -- and as Alan Greenspan (and later Newt Gingrich) pointed out in touting the ethics of capitalism, much business is done on the telephone, i.e, via "handshake." Further, it would make the government aware of every transaction -- whether or not the deal ever generated a problem requiring adjudication."

I do recall Rand's general idea of funding all (valid) government operations via service fees on contract enforcement. She was on the right track since it is linking funding directly to services. However, her scheme would also have the overhead of supporting police and military in those fees. So again, unless coercion were used to prevent competition (from the private arbiters you enjoy mentioning :) ), the government could easily find few people paying for its justice system. I'd expect most would choose arbiters except in criminal or last-resort (ie. if there is an unresolvable conflict between arbiters) cases.

The specific concerns you mention though are due to an overly restrictive view of how they would have to work. Verbal agreements are not enforceable now if there's a misunderstanding or outright dishonesty. In a 'he said, she said' situation, the courts now cannot reasonably decide - without other written or recorded evidence. I don't see how the service-fee based approach could be held to a higher standard than that.

As for requiring all contracts be filed+certified with the justice system up-front - why? I don't know exactly what best form a minimal service-fee funded justice system could take, but we can certainly be more creative than requiring such a limitation. How about:
- Contract certification (and payment per contract) is required as you say, but instead of the privacy concerns of filing the whole contract upfront, only a hash and digital signature is filed. If a lawsuit arises, then the document must be revealed (matching the hash+signature of course).
- Contracts are created essentially as they are now, without filing, no upfront fees per contract, but essentially an arbitration clause that states the parties will seek and pay for enforcement if a conflict arises, along with a note of what those fees would be based on a government service fee schedule at the time. Payment for enforcement would then only be needed when a lawsuit arises. Presumably in many cases only one party would want to sue, so they'd pay for the enforcement up front (which may be ordered from the other party based on the outcome).
- Contract filing is done with documents or hashes, but on a subscription basis of x documents, y words, etc. per year. Presumably at a discount relative to filing individually, more streamlined if you can plan ahead, etc.
- Contracts are similar to above and payment occurs only on dispute/enforcement, but again a subscription can cover fees for up to expected x suits.

There's surely many other possibilities. I just don't see there being any necessary restriction necessitating pre-filing or creating a privacy concern.

"2. I do find this from objectivisit Amber Pawlik:
Many Objectivists claim that in a "rational" society; all individuals should be allowed to initiate payments to the government of their choosing thus exchanging money for governmental services in a free market transation. This method of voluntary taxation is the arbitrary method. ... Who will determine what the government is? The customers. If the customers want to prohibit drugs, tax the rich, or institutue slavery -- that is what will happen. ... Indeed, arbitrarily paying for the government and free-market anarchism are not merely similar, they are exactly the same. This method is free-market anarchism."

Amber's paragraph simultaneously manages surprising astuteness and naivety. She recognizes that the Objectivist ideal of contractually/voluntarily funded services of a legitimate minimal government is not of significantly different nature than market anarchism. This is insightful given that many Objectivists incorrectly view market anarchism as having some radically different form, requirements, underlying ethics, or tactics of being reached. However, her insight there is unfortunately marred by it being in pursuit of a misguided attack on voluntarily funded government.

If 40% of the population of a society desire some heinous initiation of force - forbidding drugs, robbing the rich or keeping slaves - so badly that they are willing to directly pay for this coercion, then any voluntarily funded minimal government would indeed be terribly unstable. Factional power struggles for control of the government, armed conflict, and either instituting those oppressive policies or revolution or civil war could all be likely. Of course, any government (or government-less system) would be unstable in such a situation, prone to factional struggles, oppressive policies being instituted, or civil war. The real question Amber's scenario blanks out is "Given such a society - how could also giving that minimal government the power of coercive taxation possibly make anything better?"

Fortunately the current world I don't think is bad to that degree, but likely does need more rational people (or at least, fewer dangerously irrational ones) to have much chance of a minimal system not becoming abusive or otherwise breaking down. One factor that Amber-like arguments often tend to ignore gives me some reason to be optimistic: What people say they want does not constitute demand.

Poll the current US population and you'll find about 40% who say they oppose abortion or who support banning drugs (at least those harder than marijuana). In a system where money is collectively taken from their pockets anyway, and money collectively spent on law enforcement of some kind anyway, it costs them individually almost nothing to express that corrupt desire - essentially the effort to vote for the candidate supporting abortion bans or war on drugs. However, consider if they actually had to choose to put their money where their mouth is.

How many people who say they are against murder or theft would be willing to voluntarily pay for law enforcement to combat them? I'd suspect almost all - i.e. that its true demand is very closely related to what people say their preference is. How many people who say they're against abortion or drugs would choose to send the money from their own pocket to enforce such prohibitions? Undoubtedly some, but here I doubt its remotely close to the number of people who claim they support such causes. With a minimal government and voluntary funding making funding more directly and personally linked to spending on law enforcement, real demand in the economic sense would dominate instead of peoples' stated personal preferences. I find this cause for hope, as I do think most people would choose to pay for enforcing good laws, and relatively few for the bad.


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