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Post 0

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for staying curious.

Ed Thompson, on the thread:  I'm in the Mood for Ranting a Little,  in Post # 14 rephrases a question about what babies can teach parents, by suggesting that the focus rather, should be on the parent as agent.  Ed's question now rephrased: 

                                            "Does the parent learn more from the child, than the child learns from the parent?"

Post 1

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Sharon, my answer: What the parent learns -- doesn't even hold a candle to what the child does (it's not even close).

Ed


Post 2

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

Are you meaning that the child's behaviours are the more significant; in that they drive the parent's responses, which are themselves less significant to the child than the parent believes?

I don't know how to hold a candle to what you are saying, Ed.

Or are you thinking that the parent learns more from the child, than does the child from the parent?

Sharon 


Post 3

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

I meant that parents learn relatively little from their kids (compared to what the kids learn from their parents).

Kids can teach you stuff about life (more likely: remind you about the stuff of life that you've let slip out of your own consciousness), but they won't ever teach you anywhere near what you can teach them.

Ed


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Post 4

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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It's probably more proper to say that while kids do learn from their parents, parents observe the development of kids and learn for themselves. Kids of course do not consciously teach parents anything.   

Post 5

Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Hi Hong,

I read on another thread that you find interaction with older children to be more interesting; and I have to agree that I once felt the same way.  I'm beginning to wonder now, if my friends were aware of something that I was missing.

Okay Ed, you've cleared that up for me.  I thought you were aware of some breakthrough.

Now what about  Hong's idea, that the parents use observation to learn from the child?  Are there categories of things that the parent should be learning; or is it all idiosyncratic?

Post 6

Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

     This is the 1st time I gotta really, really, disagree with ya.

     To the degree that parents are actively involved with actually raising their kid(s) (beyond mere care-taking routines of [hopefully] cute 'company' hanging around), they're properly, chronically, oriented at how, when, and why, to teach what (or, which others to get as teachers about 'X'.)

     To the degree that they're not involved with such, they're not (purposefully) teaching, or helping really teach, anything.

     Parents, worthy of the name, are teachers as well as mere care-takers. Else, they're merely, even as a couple, lonely (needing 'the patter of little feet'), or fearsome of seeming 'traditionally' different ("What? No kids YET? What's the problem?")

     Unless one's learned the Profession of being a 'teacher', teaching isn't something most parent-wannabees (or actual ones) are all that automatically skilled at. Hence, learning about 'how'...and especially for O'ists...not only 'what', but also 'how-NOT', to teach, is extremely important.

     The more one identifies the things that one sees that their kid(s) need to learn, the more one learns that one's self needs to learn more about the subject itself, 1st (even if only to evaluate who else is a good enough teacher on it) whether math, geography, TV-news interpreting, etc; further: the more, if one's doing even a hint of 'home-schooling', one learns about HOW to 'teach'/communicate the subject. --- Lastly: more parents even doing a modicum of random, inadvertant, casual (say 'traditional' again) teaching, find that they have to pay attention to how to really get their point across...if they really want to be continued to be listened to, anyway. All this applies to dealing with infants, rugrats, young'uns, 7-yr olds, teenagers, etc.

     The 'child' has to learn an awful lot (especially nowadays, and most especially how to separate wheat from chaff regardless the source...including their 'parents'), granted; and it seems that the parent merely has to spew forth, when the child asks about prob 'A',  their gems-of-wisdom. Waiting until the child asks, is not exactly preparing them (or one's self) for any probs, whether sports-skills or personal-relationships.

     I've been very influenced by readings by/about Piaget (who studied how children learn) and Montessori (who studied how to teach children). Montessori stressed the idea of a 'prepared environment.' Her specific techniques are irrelevent here, but the idea of it is clearly...as in the Scout's motto..."Be Prepared;" that is, if one's going to be a 'teacher'. (All parents are, as should be clear is my view at this point; whether they want to be or not.) No, not teachers oriented only at emergencies, but at knowing/identifying what, how, when, and what a parent/TEACHER needs to know ahead of time to prepare the child's learning re...whatever the parent believes that the child needs to learn.

     Here, finally, my point is, as should be obvious by now, the 'parent,' now finding themselves with a child, if acting as a real parent, ends up learning a hell of a lot more than the child will ever discover...

     ....until the child decides to later become...a parent.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: I'm aware of what some have called "The Montessori Syndrome" which some parents have let themselves get sucked into where their time is absolutely consumed with a 'next project' for their obviously genius kids. True. Not good. Some projects are not 'needed'. Identifying 'needs' is not the same as pushing kids into the next 'challenge' one can find for them. --- But then, even THAT needs careful...identifying; ie: when to stop fishing and cut bait.


Post 7

Monday, June 19, 2006 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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John,

=============
Ed:

     This is the 1st time I gotta really, really, disagree with ya.
=============

Well, disagreements are inevitable -- and it's sort of a compliment that it took you YEARS to get to one with me (there is an embedded compliment within that statement, too -- one which those currently harboring an astute mind would see, upon reflection).

And your main point, summed up in your concluding remarks ...

=============
Here, finally, my point is, as should be obvious by now, the 'parent,' now finding themselves with a child, if acting as a real parent, ends up learning a hell of a lot more than the child will ever discover...

     ....until the child decides to later become...a parent.
=============

While well said, I agree to disagree. I, a teacher (by profession), have often 'professed' that I learn more than my students do -- by my teaching them. But this is a bit narcissistic. Sure, I am more aware of what I've learned by learning to teach something -- but I've always started on such a higher level; and have hoisted students from such a low level; that the relevant gain in knowledge (all that is important) has always favored the student.

When absolute and relative gains point in opposite directions (ie. when I learn more totally, but not relatively) -- it is the relative gains that matter most. Take 2 scenarios (from Lomborg's Skeptical Environmentalist, p 64):

===============
A. A world in which 500,000 [people] die of starvation out of a population of 1,000,000.

B. A world in which 750,000 [people] die of starvation out of a population of 2,000,000.

C. A world in which 499,999 people die of starvation out of a population of 500,000.
==================

B (37.5% chance of death) is better than A (50% chance of death), and C (near-total chance of death) is the worst.

Recap:
What the adult learns (relative to what the adult already knew) doesn't even hold a candle to what the child learns.

Ed


Post 8

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

     Ah-h-h-h...'relatively'. Hm-m-mm...musta missed that.

     There, unfortunately, I agree. (So much for years of effort.) --- Re relative gains in terms of the subject learned/taught, the diff 'tween the teacher (or parent) at the time(s) of teaching the given subject, whether in academic-settings or life-situation-contingencies, the parent/teacher learns relatively less than the student/child.

     But, relative to speaking in 'absolute' terms re all necessary to what's the teaching of what's being taught (which is what I thought was meant), I stand by my argument.

     Hope I taught you something   :D

LLAP
J:D

P.S: I have some 'academic' background also, having taught radio operation and electronic theory in the USAF; there, however, we were called 'instructors.' --- Maybe we can trade some 'interesting student' stories?


Post 9

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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John,

==============
There, unfortunately, I agree. (So much for years of effort.)
==============

Don't pout, John. We'll probably disagree sometime in the future. Just don't hold your breath on it.

;-)


===================
But, relative to speaking in 'absolute' terms re all necessary to what's the teaching of what's being taught (which is what I thought was meant), I stand by my argument.

     Hope I taught you something   :D
===================

Well, you've 'reminded' me about things I knew (but wasn't being explicitly conscious of). That's got to count for SOMETHING.


===================
Maybe we can trade some 'interesting student' stories?
===================

Well, here's a burning question that I want to know about: How come, on Finals day, women dress 'skanky' in my class? 11 weeks of dressing conservatively, then boom, it's like I'm in a strip-club or something.

I'm serious.

Ed


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Post 10

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Ye ought to test more often, then, Ed....;-)

Post 11

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Rev'!

That's funny, but I'm not sure that I could keep the quality of education up -- with such a continual distraction.

;-)

Ed


Post 12

Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

     Re you're being "...not sure that I could keep the quality of education up..." (no, I won't pun on THAT baby), I guess it depends on the subject matter, all things considered. The-Sociology-of-Roman-Baths-and-Oracle-Temples could be interesting; History-of-the-Development-of-CroMagnon-Math might not be.

     Robert's right. My high-school Ancient History teacher use to have d-a-i-l-y (don't even THINK of 'punning' this!) quizzes...which counted towards year-end grades. Who knows? Something might serendipitously come up just from that?  (sorry; it had to be said)

     Distractions, In Tractions, shmistraxions, what could make teaching worthwhile more than having fun doing it? And, oh those perks you apparently get! (oops; hard to avoid these quips) And you're complaining?

     In the USAF, my instructing, then anyways, never included WAFs in my subject-classes...sorry to say (like, VERY sorry). I repeat: stop complaining...and give more quizzes.

LLAP
J:D


Post 13

Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Does that mean "John" is really a nickname? ;-)

Post 14

Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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John,

Thank you for your thoughtful advice and words of encouragement. It's difficult to share my vexation with the issue. I mean, it's getting to the point where I'm confused as whether I should be handing out letter grades to these ladies ... or dollar bills.

Ed
[;-)]


Post 15

Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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If it's in trade, action for action, then the letter grade should be fine ...... lol ;-)

Post 16

Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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     Addendum to Robert's advice:

     Be careful of those strict-grader students who may grade *you.* If you flunk, superiors hear about it. Don't want things to, er, get out of hand, you know.

LLAP
J:D


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