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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Dear Reasoners,

If you haven't visited the RoREcon forum, you won't know that I've been assigned a government paper for which I am required to do research through an interview (it is a high school senior class).  My topic is Capitalism, and I’d love it if you could offer me your perceptive comments on some questions, below.  A note: Dean suggested I simply move the questions to this forum, instead of sending them one-on-one through e-mail, for example; it might not be a direct interview, but I don’t object.  Thank you!!  (also, these are not questions for me, as if I can’t answer them; they are questions whose responses will be used for the paper.)

 

What are some of the most obvious benefits of the free market system that have been most unjustly criticized and discounted?  What are some of the most outrageous fallacies concerning Capitalism?

 

What would a Capitalist say to the criticism of government non-intervention as something that would deprive many poor people of healthcare and education? 

 

Isn’t it tragic that an affirmation of the case for Capitalism simply requires a little more thought?

 

This isn’t a research paper question, but can anyone give me the link to that article or post regarding the best charity as being productive and very profitable?  It considered very wealthy people who basically did a cost-benefit analysis of their favorite charities to determine which ones would be most effective and investment-worthy.

 

Child labor and the working conditions of the very early Industrial Revolution (the beginnings of capitalism) seem horrendous.  Why did people subject themselves to such environments?  (An anecdote here, sort of related to Machan’s article on Teaching vs. Preaching: we’re studying the Romantics in Literature now; my teacher raves about their rebellion against the materialistic, clockwork world of industry, their escape to Nature, and industry as being only limbs mangled by machinery, naked three year-olds dragging coal carts through mine shafts, pollution, racism, materialism…..disgusting, disgusting.)

 

This last question is the only one of these that I can’t answer that well (indeed, some of the others were almost painful for me to write in their simplicity!).  Would the government in a laissez-faire society have any laws against, say, hunting a species to extinction?  My first reaction is no, because businesses would buy up and protect some of those species that yield them profit.  It seems that certain animals that don’t have any huge role in their food cycles that are being hunted would just disappear, and this seems a dangerous thing to tell an environmentalist, and a piteous thing to happen to a species (“Sorry, you’re just not useful enough”).  (I bring this up because I read an article about a mass hunt of baby seals in Canada [saccharine shot of adorable baby seal; doubtless a murderous hunter lurks nearby—but in swoops friendly government agent to save the day])

 

Answer as many or as few as you like.  I’ll be very appreciative.  Finally, I’ll probably mention your name in my paper, and I’ll probably have to add some evidence of your credibility, so add some short phrase about your credentials, please—i.e. you’re a student of economics, author, graduate of this-or-that University, etc.

 

Thank you!!
Michael Allen Yarbrough
PS. more to be added later, perhaps.


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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Reading George Reisman's Capitalism should give you a lot of ideas (available free in pdf on the net), but it is 1,100 pages.  Also good stuff is at the Mises website, just avoid the nut case part run by the anarcho-libertarian wack jobs.  Some thoughts:

How can you deprive someone of something that they didn't have to begin with?  In essense, you are depriving someone of something to give to someone else (oh, and taking a "cut" of the pie along the way, don't forget!).  Plus, it does not work - it is both immoral - simply stealing - and it is impractical from an economic standpoint.

You can mention how much more money everyone else will have, including people struggling to make ends meet now who will have the money they need because it is not taxed away.

Your teacher is ignorant of all the hardships of living a day to day existance as a serf or peasant on subsistance farming.  Perhaps enlighten him.  He could start by observing how the peasants live in the third world today.

Why did everyone move to the city?  Mostly because it was BETTER - no one forced them to, except under the socialist system, where millions were used as slave labor and died, and millions starved in Soviet Russia before the World War.  So, while by our standards it is horrible, and it isn't good by absolute standards, it was still better than the alternative, and paved the way for a better future.

If you don't want a species to die, handle it yourself.  Don't ask me to fund your ideas.

Another thing to say is that you believe in freedom, only it appears that they are willing to force their ideas on you, but you don't wish to force your ideas on them.  They are using violence and force to foist their ideas on everyone else.


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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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A good book on child labor is CHILD LABOR AND THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, by Clark Nardinelli.......[Indiana University Press,1990]


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Post 3

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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What are some of the most obvious benefits of the free market system that have been most unjustly criticized and discounted? 

Biggest benefit (IMHO):  Zero coercion from the state or it's representatives. Human beings are pretty smart when it comes to taking care of themselves.

 

 

What are some of the most outrageous fallacies concerning Capitalism?

That the "rich get richer and poor get poorer."  I HATE that one!  It's such a bogus lie! I also hate all the implications that human nature is inherently depraved, that we'd just use each other up and destroy the planet if human freedom isn't kept in check through regulations.

 

What would a Capitalist say to the criticism of government non-intervention as something that would deprive many poor people of healthcare and education? 

If there's a buck to be made, someone will figure out a way to make it, and that's what they hate, in reality. What's keeping poor people poor is government intervention, not personal responsibility and private industry.  There are some amazingly bright kids coming out of the homeschool environment. How the hell did that happen?? Microscopic budgets were somehow responsible for educating children to the degree you just don't see in any public school environment, no matter how rich the district is.  Could it possibly be that the personal responsibility taken by parents results in these brilliant ends, something that can't be purchased with billions and billions of public dollars?  

If government just plain got out of the health care industry, what would happen? You'd see thousands of hospitals and health care professionals forced to lower their rates to a level that would be consummate to the population. You'd see people taking better care of their health, because government won't be there to support they're terrible lifestyles with an SSI check every month.  People are still rewarded in this country for abusing themselves. Severely obese people can get disability checks along with the chronically "depressed," alcoholics, drug addicts, and for all of the wonderful mental disorders that accompany those issues. 

 

When I was a little girl, our pediatrician actually made house calls on the weekends and in the evening when one of us kids got really barfy sick. He had one of those black medical bags and the whole gig.  Incredibly, he saw it as part of his job to do stuff like that, and as a consequence, was a very popular, and rich, pediatrician.  We had Blue Cross insurance back then, but in only covered certain things (hospital emergencies, shots for the kids, things like that) and never covered prescriptions.   How in the world did we survive without government making all the rules?? :)

 

Child labor and the working conditions of the very early Industrial Revolution (the beginnings of capitalism) seem horrendous.  Why did people subject themselves to such environments? 

They probably were horrendous (by our modern standards), but paid more than farming when crops failed or herds died. Starvation is even more horrendous than some greasy grimy work shop. People do lots of crazy stuff for money, like run for office, or eat bugs on television. 

Prosperity can breed a shortage of labor because it also encourages competition. When labor is in short supply, conditions improve and wages rise because industry is forced to compete for competent labor.   

 

 (An anecdote here, sort of related to Machan’s article on Teaching vs. Preaching: we’re studying the Romantics in Literature now; my teacher raves about their rebellion against the materialistic, clockwork world of industry, their escape to Nature, and industry as being only limbs mangled by machinery, naked three year-olds dragging coal carts through mine shafts, pollution, racism, materialism…..disgusting, disgusting.)

Rolling my eyes....


 

 

This last question is the only one of these that I can’t answer that well (indeed, some of the others were almost painful for me to write in their simplicity!).  Would the government in a laissez-faire society have any laws against, say, hunting a species to extinction? 

Gawd, I hope not!

 

My first reaction is no, because businesses would buy up and protect some of those species that yield them profit. 


I'm thinking even that won't be necessary as all habitats will be privately owned and under the scrutiny of property owners who don't want to see the value of they're property diminished by wasting a pristine environment. If he chooses to waste it, it's his loss, and no one else's.

 

 It seems that certain animals that don’t have any huge role in their food cycles that are being hunted would just disappear, and this seems a dangerous thing to tell an environmentalist, and a piteous thing to happen to a species (“Sorry, you’re just not useful enough”).  (I bring this up because I read an article about a mass hunt of baby seals in Canada [saccharine shot of adorable baby seal; doubtless a murderous hunter lurks nearby—but in swoops friendly government agent to save the day])

Again, this goes back to the terrible and WRONG idea that human beings are inherently evil and destructive brutes. We're not.

 

Answer as many or as few as you like.  I’ll be very appreciative.  Finally, I’ll probably mention your name in my paper, and I’ll probably have to add some evidence of your credibility, so add some short phrase about your credentials, please—i.e. you’re a student of economics, author, graduate of this-or-that University, etc.


Err, I don't have any "credentials," other than the I've been a fan of Ayn Rand's for many years, and a hopeful student of Objectivism.  Feel free to use my name if it helps with your assignment. 

 

This was kinda fun!





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Post 4

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Allen Yarbrough,

I'd be delighted to answer your questions. I'll provide quick answers and you can decide for yourself whether I my answers are consistent with your observations.

First, some important definitions (otherwise you probably won't be able to know what I mean by these words when I say them in my answers).

A value: a thing that someone or a group of people act to gain or keep.
Examples:
- Food when you are hungry for nourishment
- Accurate predictions of the results of your potential future actions
- To have something that others would trade for that others are not capable of taking or destroying without your consent :)

Productivity: a life form acting to and successfully gaining and keeping their highest values.
Example: Cleaning your room so that you can find things and so that your friend doesn't think you are sloppy and trashy. Gained/kept values: being able to find things and enjoying a friends company in your room.

Capitalism: a system where you have full control over what is done to your own body and that which you gained by consensual trade or work. A system where people net loose when they murder, steal, vandalize, rape, commit fraud, a few more.
Close example: The USA between Independence Day and the year 1900.
Counter example: Cuba, North Korea (current)

Science: a learning method:
1. Make a prediction about a future observation of Reality.
2. Observe Reality.
3. Compare your predictions to your observations.
4. Learn: if the prediction is consistent with the observation, you can be confident you discovered an idea that is consistent with Reality (true). If the prediction is not consistent with the observation, you can be confident you discovered an idea that is not consistent with Reality (false).

Example:
1. Predict: When you hold a rock in the air, and then let go of it, it does not move.
2. Observe: The rock accelerates towards the Earth.
3. Compare: Prediction is very different from the observation.
4. Learn: I found a false idea! Rocks do not stay put when you hold them in the air and then let go.

Scientific & Objective Teaching: Assisting another life form in learning ideas that are both consistent with Reality and useful to them. Assistence is provided through offering predictions and then helping the student test to see whether the prediction is consistent with their observations or not.
Example:
When you give someone you don't trust $10.00 for a $3.50 item, you should get at least $6.50 back, or else he is ripping you off. Here's $10.00, see what you can get with it! I'll give you another $10.00 if you do something for me that is more valuable to me than $10.00, such as: here are my reciepts from my purchases last month. Can you make sure that my credit card company didn't rip me off?

Now, on to your questions:

Q: What are some of the most obvious benefits of the free market system that have been most unjustly criticized and discounted? What are some of the most outrageous fallacies concerning Capitalism?

A: Obvious benefit: anybody who produces value for themselves and trades with others has the maximum ability to live life as they choose, yet not at the expense of other innocent citizens.
Outrageous fallacy: that poor people have no chance in becoming rich. In a capitalist society, poor productive people have the greatest chance of increasing their standard of living (such as myself, I am greatly hindered by socialist programs in the US, but I like living here because its the most Capitalist place to live in the world (lowest taxes, lowest crime)).


Q: What would a Capitalist say to the criticism of government non-intervention as something that would deprive many poor people of health care and education?

A: Public health care is a disaster, doctors ask exorbitant prices and perform un-needed medical treatment, very wasteful, and tons of people have no motivation to produce anything to trade for health care: they just sit on their buts and continue to become unhealthy. The government, and then the people who use the government money, they gain their resources by stealing from productive people, which means that productive people will have less resources to invest in becoming more productive, which means long term poor people get less advanced and lower quality health care.

Public education is a disaster. It separates learning from being productive and achieving goals-- which results in years of boredom, imprisonment, and teaches kids that its good to dictate your purposes to others and that its good to force people to use their resources and bodies in non-consensual ways. The government, and then the people who use the government money, they gain their resources by stealing from productive people, which means that productive people will have less resources to invest in becoming more productive, which means long term poor people get less advanced and lower quality health care. Kids, everybody learns ideas that are consistent with Reality best by using the scientific method, induction, and deduction. Learning by argument from authority is the worst and most self-knowledge base destructive way to learn. Individuals learn much faster when the ideas that they have determined for themselves that what they are about to learn will enable them to achieve their own goals.


Q: Isn’t it tragic that an affirmation of the case for Capitalism simply requires a little more thought?

A: I think its tragic that people don't use science to learn everything, and that many people are poor at discovering mistakes (logical fallacies) in other's and their own ideas.


Q: This isn’t a research paper question, but can anyone give me the link to that article or post regarding the best charity as being productive and very profitable? It considered very wealthy people who basically did a cost-benefit analysis of their favorite charities to determine which ones would be most effective and investment-worthy.

A: "Charity" gets most of its meaning because the government gives tax breaks on income that went towards what they call "Charity". Charity is simply a form of trade, where a person gives some of their values in exchange for other values. Please keep in mind my definition of "value" above, because that is what I mean when I say "value".


Q: Child labor and the working conditions of the very early Industrial Revolution (the beginnings of capitalism) seem horrendous. Why did people subject themselves to such environments? (An anecdote here, sort of related to Machan’s article on Teaching vs. Preaching: we’re studying the Romantics in Literature now; my teacher raves about their rebellion against the materialistic, clockwork world of industry, their escape to Nature, and industry as being only limbs mangled by machinery, naked three year-olds dragging coal carts through mine shafts, pollution, racism, materialism…..disgusting, disgusting.)

A: Life during the Industrial Revolution was very different from life today. If the children didn't work, they would have died or been worse off. Could you imagine the government forcing a child off the factory property, and taking him home, where his worthless dad and loving mother live, where he will starve to death because no one is both willing and capable of taking care of him? Could you imagine the government requiring the entire population of a country to go to be locked up in school from 8am to 3pm to learn useless ideas from argument from authority and learn how to become a slave, to be unable to go out and get a job and learn skills that enable them to live and succeed?


Q: This last question is the only one of these that I can’t answer that well (indeed, some of the others were almost painful for me to write in their simplicity!). Would the government in a laissez-faire society have any laws against, say, hunting a species to extinction? My first reaction is no, because businesses would buy up and protect some of those species that yield them profit. It seems that certain animals that don’t have any huge role in their food cycles that are being hunted would just disappear, and this seems a dangerous thing to tell an environmentalist, and a piteous thing to happen to a species (“Sorry, you’re just not useful enough”). (I bring this up because I read an article about a mass hunt of baby seals in Canada [saccharine shot of adorable baby seal; doubtless a murderous hunter lurks nearby—but in swoops friendly government agent to save the day])

A: Property rights would mean that you can't go hunting on other's property. So if you own some land, and someone comes onto your land and kills your animals, then they have destroyed your property in a way that is un-repairable. That's a pretty horrible crime! Government owned property is where the most extinction happens. I don't care about species that no one is willing to keep from going out of extinction. It would be nice to get their DNA so that we could clone them later if someone wanted to.


Q: Answer as many or as few as you like. I’ll be very appreciative. Finally, I’ll probably mention your name in my paper, and I’ll probably have to add some evidence of your credibility, so add some short phrase about your credentials, please—i.e. you’re a student of economics, author, graduate of this-or-that University, etc.

A: I strive to learn by science. Please don't accept what I say by my credentials, instead read each sentence and determine for yourself whether my ideas are true. Its easy, all you have to do is compare what I say to what you observe. My past success does give you a hint that my ideas may be worth while to consider.

I've got a Bachelor of Science in Computer Engineering with a Minor in Mathematics from Michigan Technological University. I attended an excellent high school, the Macomb Mathematics Science Technology Center. Information theory, goal directed information processing, and goal directed learning of information consistent with Reality are my current interests and focus of research (Independent Study). I'm currently employed as a software developer, I create and improve an ordering system that has thousands of customers and products.

Sincerely,
Dean Michael Gores

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Dean

You are a most generous capitalist.  I appreciated your efforts to express these ideas in language that is meaningful for us juniors. 
I owe you a sundowner.

Thank you
Sharon


 

Post 6

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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. I don't care about species that no one is willing to keep from going out of extinction. It would be nice to get their DNA so that we could clone them later if someone wanted to.
What a great idea!  :)


Post 7

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

==========
What are some of the most outrageous fallacies concerning Capitalism?

That the "rich get richer and poor get poorer."  I HATE that one!  It's such a bogus lie!

==========

 

And right you are. The ratio of the "richest 20%-to-poorest 20%", in 1960, was 13 - 1. The year 2000 ratio, was 12 - to - 1 (an actual narrowing of the "rich-to-poor" gap). However, I do suspect an increase in this gap as of today (2000-2006) -- due to the recent and unprecedented increase in statism in this otherwise great nation.

 

 

============

What's keeping poor people poor is government intervention, not personal responsibility and private industry.

============

 

Right! Our 81 unconnected welfare programs have spent enough to buy all 500 of the Fortune 500 companies -- but have, on balance, made no progress. Think of that, for a moment. Spending enough money to buy all of the 500 most lucrative businesses -- yet yielding no net improvement. Amazing inefficiency, amazing.

 

Ed


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Post 8

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:28amSanction this postReply
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It seems that certain animals that don�t have any huge role in their food cycles that are being hunted would just disappear, and this seems a dangerous thing to tell an environmentalist, and a piteous thing to happen to a species (�Sorry, you�re just not useful enough�). (I bring this up because I read an article about a mass hunt of baby seals in Canada [saccharine shot of adorable baby seal; doubtless a murderous hunter lurks nearby�but in swoops friendly government agent to save the day])


This also assumes the stupidity and destructiveness of man. If you switch the perspective that man can do great things with himself and with the planet he lives on via responsibility, then this wouldn't happen. I.e. instead of killing baby seals, why not go towards the use of stem cells and cloning to grow and provide whatever it is that baby seals have? I find it funny that if anyone were to strongly promote stem cell research, it would be the eco-terror-environmental folks--- if they could just get their heads on straight.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:21amSanction this postReply
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If they had their heads on straight, they wouldn't be eco-terrorists.......

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson: Our 81 unconnected welfare programs have spent enough to buy all 500 of the Fortune 500 companies -- but have, on balance, made no progress. Think of that, for a moment. Spending enough money to buy all of the 500 most lucrative businesses -- yet yielding no net improvement. Amazing inefficiency, amazing.

Ed, can you give me a source for this information? I'm guessing some of it may be collected from various places or calculated on your own, but was there one source that said this? Thanks for this incredible information!

also, I'm not deliberately ignoring the rest of you; I have written out a long reply to each poster here, but I can't get to where I saved the reply. You'll hear from me later.

Michael Allen Yarbrough
EDIT: also, could you give me a few specifics on your education and teaching position as credentials for the paper? Thank you.
(Edited by Mike Yarbrough
on 4/13, 9:46am)


Post 11

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

In my response, I was building off of a mere 3 books ...

The Government Racket 2000, by Martin L. Gross

Give Me a Break, by John Stossel

The Ten Things You can't say in America, by Larry Elder

I don't have time to find the exact quotes -- but I suggest the purchase of the above 3.

I have a BS in Biology (from the University of Minnesota) and a year of graduate study in Nutrition Science (also at the University of Minnesota). However, I am unwilling to provide more complete details regarding my personal information (to strangers). It's nothing against you, Mike -- it's just my modus operandi.

Knock 'em dead with your paper!

Ed


Post 12

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Mike, I forgot that I based some stuff off of a fourth book ...

The Skeptical Environmentalist, by Bjorn Lomborg

This was a VERY BIG omission by me, as this book has the most robust and hard data supporting free markets over alternatives to free markets -- sorry!

Ed


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