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Post 0

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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Hey ladies and dudes!

I am fighting my way through the new discovered philosophy of O. and there are some questions about my hierarchy of knowledge and the primacy of existence, so here I go...

1. What exactly does the term primacy refer to? I'm looking for a definition of primacy. Does it mean logical priority or....I am confused.

2. Knowledge is hierarchcal. Is all knowledge either philosophical or scientific? I am thinking about Rand's saying philosophy is the soil, sciences the trees... I am having troubles integrating every day issues in any kind of way into my consciousness. Example: I recently discovered the game Poker. Is the knowledge of the rules of Poker part of any science or philosophy or what, if not? Another example: Is the mental grasp of a certain building like my school part of metaphysics or do i misunderstand that? Another example: The computer that is standing in front of me is grasped by my brain as "my computer" but what are the wider circumstances of that thought? Where does my mind remember the mental image of my computer, my room etc. Metaphysics? Maybe I simply misunderstand metaphysics. Does is say existence exists and everything that exists has a certain Identity? I am in between the idea that metaphysics only contains the law of identity and the axiom of existence (I don't think that consciousness belongs in the arena of metaphysics) and the idea that everything that exists belongs in the arena of metaphysics which only states the existents existence and identity...Metaphysics contains man's widest abstractions and I thought a particular object like "my computer", poker-rules or a building in front of me would not belong in there. 
I don't reach the state of being able to say upright that my knowledge represents reality.  

3. Do you agree that it is possible for knowledge to be objective and still be wrong? For example the axiomatic term "law of identity". I cannot refer to anything right now that would ever violate that law. But in the past history showed that whole blocks of knowledge have been torn down just because a new discovery showed under wider circumstances or from a different perspective some old premises were wrong. I see that everything does have or appears to have a certain identity but I wonder if it is possible that one day in subatomic particles or stuff other laws will be discovered that one hasn't yet identified and which aren't yet observable with our senses or our methods of research (e.g. technical possibilities). My "knowledge" about reality would then be wrong or at least incomplete. I after all conclude that one cannot claim absolute certainty for ones knowledge, do you agree? Well, should one speak of knowledge then? For me knowledge is still contrasted with faith and associated with absolute correctness. Is that view incorrect and should I adopt a view of knowledge more associated with logical certainty... "as long as" claims...e.g. as long as nobody has proven a new law that makes the law of identity invalid I have all reasons to believe in its truth and should call it knowledge...?

I am thankful for everybody trying to help me here, since I know that I just typed down my uncertainties and they might be hard to follow. As you see I don't have too clear questions. If anybody is outthere willing to support a german objectivist and just doesn't get a clue of what I am talking about, I am certainly eager to clarify my concerns.

So long, thank you all for your efforts:-)

Tok! 


Post 1

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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I thought poker rules fell into the realm of ethics. <g>

Metaphysics: Reality of existence. Existence exists outside of consciousness.

Epistemology: Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification. A is A.
       Consciousness is metaphysically passive. (Error: "I think, therefore, I am."  Correction: "I am, therefore, I think")

Example:  There is a set of 52 playing cards (metaphysics). You are aware of the cards (conscious identification). Through further investigation of inspection of the cards, you discover an infinite number of ways these cards can be used (conceptualization, abstraction).
You finally settle on using the cards in a single consistent way that involves adding friends, beer, pretzels and chips (standardized conceptualization, shared abstractions).
The rules involve cooperation from all playing members (ethics).
The techniques you use to play the game results in a win every time (aesthetics).


Post 2

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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I thought poker rules fell into the realm of ethics. <g>
Nice! Thinking about it, it makes sense. For explanation why I thought the Poker rules were metaphysical is that I thought they were once announced and are therefore part of reality, part of the identity of the game...(?) :-)

That's interesting...Consciousness is Identification...I've never heard that one before. Consciousness means being conscious of something, which means being conscious of the identity of something, which means identifying something...Is that correct?

You finally settle on using the cards in a single consistent way that involves adding friends, beer, pretzels and chips (standardized conceptualization, shared abstractions).
I've never heard those terms you use although I understand what they mean...

You say:
There is a set of 52 playing cards (metaphysics)
Poker is certainly different in definition than a set of 52 playing cards, since as you mentioned there are numbers of ways to use them. Is then epistemology to call a certain way of playing with those cards an Poker? What then is the connection between identifying reality and addressing words to it like Poker? I would say something like epistemology identifies various ways to use the cards and one way (including all different kinds of the game) has once been called Poker which is the linguistic attribute added...

I don't know am I just making stuff up or does it really work that way?
The techniques you use to play the game results in a win every time (aesthetics).
Could you explain the aesthetic component in your statement, please...Aesthetics is next to politics the field I know the least of. I am currently reading the romantic manifesto but I am thankful for any real life example of its use.

Thanks for now,
Tok


Post 3

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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The techniques you use to play the game results in a win every time (aesthetics}

Aesthetics is " skill of mind in making'' .....


Post 4

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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The techniques you use to play the game results in a win every time (aesthetics).
Could you explain the aesthetic component in your statement, please...Aesthetics is next to politics the field I know the least of. I am currently reading the romantic manifesto but I am thankful for any real life example of its use.
LOL! Sorry, I couldn't think of an appropriate political parallel for poker, as I'm unfamiliar with the rules of the game.  Now, if I understood the rules, I know I could come up with a political imagery for it.  

Suggestion, put down RM and pick up "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" instead. Your questions will be answered there,  Grasshopper.   


Post 5

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:
So the techniques one uses to play could be called "the art of poker playing"? If so, then are terms like logic, the art of non-contradictory identification or rhetorics, the art of talking of aesthetic origin?


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Post 6

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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You can start your knowledge base with "something currently exists". If it didn't, how could you currently be observing things?
1. What exactly does the term primacy refer to? I'm looking for a definition of primacy.
Primacy of Consciousness
Genus: Metaphysical theory
Differentia:
Reality is a product of ones mind and that knowledge of reality is gained through introspection
Link:
Article
Primacy of Existence
Genus: Metaphysical theory
Differentia:
Reality exists independent of ones mind and that knowledge of reality is gained through perception
Link: Article

From importanceofphilosophy.com dictionary.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 4/03, 7:51pm)


Post 7

Monday, April 3, 2006 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Q: Is knowledge is hierarchcal?

A: Some knowledge is hierarchical, and it depends on what you are using to divide and sort your knowledge by. Example: sort and group by confidence. Sort and group by frequency of use. Sort and group by when you learned it. Knowledge is more like a graph. What are the relationships between your ideas? Graphs and trees and linked lists and arrays, oh my! Some ideas require that you first learn other ideas first before you can understand them: Hierarchy of Knowledge.


Q: Is all knowledge either philosophical or scientific?

A: A knowledge base is the set of ideas/information that you think with/perform operations on over a span of time. Some ideas are learned arbitrarily (faith), some through induction & deduction, some through science.


Q: I am thinking about Rand's saying philosophy is the soil, sciences the trees... I am having troubles integrating every day issues in any kind of way into my consciousness. Example: I recently discovered the game Poker. Is the knowledge of the rules of Poker part of any science or philosophy or what, if not?

A: I'd say that you learned the rules of Poker through the learning method called science. Ayn Rand's philosophy would help you answer the questions "How much should I play Poker?" and "What should I try to accomplish while playing poker?"


Q: Another example: Is the mental grasp of a certain building like my school part of metaphysics or do i misunderstand that? Another example: The computer that is standing in front of me is grasped by my brain as "my computer" but what are the wider circumstances of that thought? Where does my mind remember the mental image of my computer, my room etc. Metaphysics? Maybe I simply misunderstand metaphysics. Does is say existence exists and everything that exists has a certain Identity? I am in between the idea that metaphysics only contains the law of identity and the axiom of existence (I don't think that consciousness belongs in the arena of metaphysics) and the idea that everything that exists belongs in the arena of metaphysics which only states the existents existence and identity...Metaphysics contains man's widest abstractions and I thought a particular object like "my computer", poker-rules or a building in front of me would not belong in there. I don't reach the state of being able to say upright that my knowledge represents reality.

A: OK, I think what you are discovering here is that the ideas/information that your brain stores/recalls/perceives/operates on is not the exact same thing as the things that are external of your body. Your brain stores states that you sense and compute by changing the +/- magnitude of inputs to neurons and changing the stability of the magnitude and changing which neurons are connected to which.


Q: Do you agree that it is possible for knowledge to be objective and still be wrong?

A: To me, objective means learned through the scientific method, and yes, I think ideas that are inconsistent with Reality can be added to your knowledge base by making mistakes anywhere in the method.


Q: But in the past history showed that whole blocks of knowledge have been torn down just because a new discovery showed under wider circumstances or from a different perspective some old premises were wrong. I see that everything does have or appears to have a certain identity but I wonder if it is possible that one day in subatomic particles or stuff other laws will be discovered that one hasn't yet identified and which aren't yet observable with our senses or our methods of research (e.g. technical possibilities). My "knowledge" about reality would then be wrong or at least incomplete.

A: Yep.


Q: I after all conclude that one cannot claim absolute certainty for ones knowledge, do you agree? Well, should one speak of knowledge then? For me knowledge is still contrasted with faith and associated with absolute correctness. Is that view incorrect and should I adopt a view of knowledge more associated with logical certainty... "as long as" claims...e.g. as long as nobody has proven a new law that makes the law of identity invalid I have all reasons to believe in its truth and should call it knowledge...?

A: There are a few things you can be absolutely certain of, like something currently exists, you are currently perceiving, 'A' is itself. Then there are tons of things that you can have enough confidence in that you would be highly confident that if you were to predict the results of your actions based on an idea, that your predictions would be consistent with your observations of the results of your actions. I don't say that the ideas in my knowledge base are 100% consistent with Reality. I say that I continually work to increase the consistency of my ideas with Reality, and also increase their utility. You could learn the decimal digits of π or √(2) and you could be very certain that your knowledge is true. But how useful is it?



Post 8

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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tok,

============
Is all knowledge either philosophical or scientific?
============

There are 3 kinds of knowledge ...

-General knowledge which can be gained by anyone who resolves themselves to thinking straight (philosophy).

-Special knowledge which can only be gained by utilizing expertise and advanced tools (science).

-Personal knowledge (like your knowledge of the pain that a toothache is giving you) that cannot ever be fully gained by another -- not to the extent that it is gained by you.



============
Do you agree that it is possible for knowledge to be objective and still be wrong?
============

First of all, the term 'objective' should be adequately and mutually understood (before answering questions utilizing that term). In keeping with this right way to perform rational debate then, I present the following definition and solicit your agreement ... 

Objective means: invariant across observations.

Objectivity is best understood by looking at the instances of non-objectivity -- in order to see their contrast with objectivity. It is not objective to say of some railroad tracks that they converge in the distance. Yeah, sure, your subjective, perceptual view makes them appear that way to you  -- but this perceptual judgment is not "invariant across observations."

For example, there might be an observer who has travelled the whole length of these tracks -- and he knows that they DON'T "converge in the distance."

It is not possible for knowledge to be objective and wrong -- error just being observations that are variant from other (e.g. correct) observations.

Ed


Post 9

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Thank you guys for the hints!

Robert wrote:

Aesthetics is " skill of mind in making'' .....
Could you explain what that means a little more extensively please?

Teresa wrote:

Suggestion, put down RM and pick up "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" instead. Your questions will be answered there,  Grasshopper.   
Thanks ma'am :-)

Dean wrote:
Some knowledge is hierarchical, and it depends on what you are using to divide and sort your knowledge by. Example: sort and group by confidence. Sort and group by frequency of use. Sort and group by when you learned it...
What does Objectivism usually refer to when it states the general hierarchy of knowledge? 

On www.importanceofphilosophy.com it doesn't say some knowledge is hierarchical and neither does the Logical Introduction to Objectivism by David Kelley, it says knowledge is hierarchical. So I assume it is meant to mean knowledge in general without exceptions.

Q: Is all knowledge either philosophical or scientific?

A: A knowledge base is the set of ideas/information that you think with/perform operations on over a span of time. Some ideas are learned arbitrarily (faith), some through induction & deduction, some through science.
The knowledge base is philosophy if I get you right. I understand that arbitrary ideas are part of my consciousness and remain there but I don't use them for argumentation once I've discovered their arbitrariness. I would then tag them as you see it with a negative confidence tag. But that doesn't answer my question or I don't understand you correctly.

I have knowledge about philosophical issues: Is the world knowable; How do I gain knowledge if it is knowable; what should I do then...

I also have knowledge about special sciences: How to add; How do chemicals work in my brain...

But how do personal experiences fit in there: Knowledge about what I have done yesterday evening; The knowledge that I love my girl...stuff like that is what I don't understand to fit in. Are those kinds of information part of philosophy? Is it for example metaphysics that includes knowledge about my personal history like the shock experience that my parents got divorced...?
Ed Thompson sees it a little differently with his 3 kinds of knowledge but his way seems not to be combinable with hierarchical knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.

Is there any Objectivist literature about metaphysics other than ITOE?

I'd say that you learned the rules of Poker through the learning method called science
You seriously consider Poker a science or at least part of a science? Please explain in what way. Do you consider chess and football sciences too? 

Some ideas are learned arbitrarily (faith), some through induction & deduction, some through science

To me, objective means learned through the scientific method, and yes, I think ideas that are inconsistent with Reality can be added to your knowledge base by making mistakes anywhere in the method.

But if one made mistakes it isn't knowledge in the objective sense since it doesn't reflect reality correctly. I think there is a difference between information and knowledge, but my definitions of them are blurry. Maybe someone with better understanding could help me here since that's really a wide topic. Please don't link to the importanceofphilosophy homepage because I've studied it at lengths for a couple months now and it doesn't help me any further. I would like to hear some personal statements.

Thank you all for contributing!
I appreciate it highly!

So long, Tok (aka "the grasshopper") :-)


Post 10

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
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tok,
 
================
Ed Thompson sees it a little differently with his 3 kinds of knowledge but his way seems not to be combinable with hierarchical knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.
================

The base of objective knowledge is philosophy -- it is available to all thinking agents. The special branches off of this base are the special sciences -- available to experts armed with tools. The Personal Knowledge I mentioned before is not part of this tree of objective knowledge -- it is subjective knowledge, that to which only the particular thinking agent has a privileged access.

The existence of subjective knowledge (ie. non-transmittable knowledge) does not affect the standing hierarchy of objective (transmittable) knowledge.

Ed


Post 11

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

it is subjective knowledge, that to which only the particular thinking agent has a privileged access.

Now to me as an Objectivist rookie that sounds an awful lot like a subjectivist notion. Even if it is personal knowledge of any kind to be correct it still has to be objective. There is no such thing as subjective knowledge in my eyes. I don't know how the others in this forum see it, but that's the way I understand it.

How could there be subjective knowledge. The whole point of Objectivism is to live by objective principles gained by looking at reality and forming one's knowledge after it because the world exists and we need our minds to understand it. Though I can't transmit my knowledge about how apples tastes or how it feels to skydive, that knowledge is still objective since it reflects facts about my emotional states or subjective experiences but it certainly is objective. It is gained by objective methods and not created by the mind although the phenomena might be subjective/ consciousness-related.

Maybe I misunderstand you and what you mean is objective knowledge about a subject. In that case I would like to understand your point of how this is different to other knowledge and how it is logically, contextually and hierarchically tied to the rest of my knowledge, my philosophy and sciences.

Maybe the others can assist on this point.

I would like to ask a question I posted in another forum before but didn't get an answer:

There are so many issues in man's life which are commonly called "the art of..." and I would like to know if that's really art/ aesthetics in the Objectivist sense. What I am talking about is e.g. the art of logic, the art of telling jokes, the art of playing poker, the art of small talking...I think everyone know those sayings from their personal experience.

I ask because I am actually learning to play poker at the moment and now wonder if improving my poker skills could correctly be called (learning/achieving) the the art of pokerplaying. If not I would ask what you consider skills like those above or those of a great football player or a gymnist to be.


Tok.

(Edited by tok namchu on 4/06, 12:54pm)


Post 12

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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Tok:
That's interesting...Consciousness is Identification...I've never heard that one before.

     I gather, therefore, that you haven't read Atlas Shrugged yet, in your
...fighting my way through the new discovered philosophy of O
     ....correct?

     If so, you're asking questions about algebra before you've gotten the multiplication tables down pat.

     Go through Anthem (1st), then The Fountainhead, AS, and finally, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology...in your fight through O. Cliff's Notes readings on O'ism aren't really the way to go re understanding much; they're only good for summarizing - not the same thing.

     GL in your fight.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Until you've read "Galt's Speech", you haven't really read 'Objectivism.'

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/06, 1:39pm)


Post 13

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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John,

since english isn't my native language I hesitated to read AS and The Fountainhead because of their length and chose to stick with the non-fiction first. I know Rand set forth her ideas through her fictional characters. It's probably about time that I move on to them.

Tok

(Edited by tok namchu on 4/06, 6:44pm)


Post 14

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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tok,

============
How could there be subjective knowledge.
============

Here is another way to ask this question -- without changing the meaning at all ...

How could there be knowledge of internal things -- desires, pain, etc -- that don't have instantiation out in extra-mental reality?

Answer:
Because the subject has -- within his powers of awareness -- the power of introspection.

Another way to say what I'm saying is this:
The objective view of the mind -- just is the subjective (1st-person) view of it. And 3rd-person views (of someone's mind) are, necessarily, subjective views.. For everything else though, objectivity requires the ability to get into a 3rd person view -- for the mind, this is just the opposite.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/06, 8:11pm)


Post 15

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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Tok:

     If you tackled her non-fiction 1st...well...more power to you. However, for the most part, it's all an elaboration and explication of the actual basics in...well...AS.

     Hope to see you posting more here.

LLAP
J:D


Post 16

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 5:19amSanction this postReply
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Ed,
The objective view of the mind -- just is the subjective (1st-person) view of it.
I think there's an essential difference between the objective view of the mind and the subjective view. Just because the phenomena observed are attainable only by a subject experiencing them, doesn't make the knowledge of it subjective. That confuses the primacy of consciousness with the primacy of existence. If I stick with the subjective view of my consciousness I begin to assume that my consciousness is everything, it creates the world and my feelings become absolutes. The difference explicitely is that the subjective view loses contact to reality. I can assume whatever I feel like about my consciousness if I don't regard that knowledge has a relational nature between consciousness and reality, even objective knowledge of subjective phenomena. 

Maybe we both mean the same thing.

And 3rd-person views (of someone's mind) are, necessarily, subjective views.. For everything else though, objectivity requires the ability to get into a 3rd person view -- for the mind, this is just the opposite.
Sorry Ed,  I don't understand what you mean by that.

Thank you for the flowers John:-)

Tok.

(Edited by tok namchu on 4/07, 6:15am)


Post 17

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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tok,

==========
Just because the phenomena observed are attainable only by a subject experiencing them, doesn't make the knowledge of it subjective.
==========

Right. A single man can be in possession of objective knowledge (others needn't know it -- for it to be objective). This occurs whenever there is a new discovery (every Eureka! moment) -- and whenever one reasonably introspects.



=============
If I stick with the subjective view of my consciousness I begin to assume that my consciousness is everything, it creates the world and my feelings become absolutes.
=============

I think we agree. But here is some elaboration to find out:

Sticking with subjectivity is wrong (it leads to solipsism). But a subject's view of their consciousness is the objective view of it (all 3rd party views of someone else's consciousness are, necessarily, subjective).



=============
I can assume whatever I feel like about my consciousness if I don't regard that knowledge has a relational nature between consciousness and reality, even objective knowledge of subjective phenomena. 
=============

Good point.

Ed


Post 18

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Tok:
[from Ed]: And 3rd-person views (of someone's mind) are, necessarily, subjective views.. For everything else, though, objectivity requires the ability to get into a 3rd person view -- for the mind, this is just the opposite.
Sorry Ed, I don't understand what you mean by that.
     Ever read anything by Jean Piaget? His longtitudinal studies on mental development in young children delved into the development of viewing perceptual objects (house, yard, etc) 'from an other's perspective', and drawing what such would look like...rather than how they, from where they are, are actually seeing it. One can not 'get into' another's mind for their perspectives (visual, abstract, whatever), but objectivity does rely on one's attempt to 'put oneself in the other's position.' Such requires being able to correctly identify that position 1st, of course.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: What flowers? I sent candy (don't get the wrong idea, though). Hope you didn't put them in water.


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