About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've been studying Objectivism for about two years, especially since I found out that the creator of the Incredibles [Yes I loved that film!] also studied Objectivism in his youth. I also studied it since I found most other philosophies lacking.

But one particular issue that I have a question about is what are the formal views or theories about land ownership with regard to Objectivism. I've read of some people that claim to be Objectivist or that support Objectivism that also support the abolition of private land ownership. I just wonder if that is the formal position that can be concluded from Objectivism.

-- Bridget

Post 1

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've read of some people that claim to be Objectivist or that support Objectivism that also support the abolition of private land ownership. I just wonder if that is the formal position that can be concluded from Objectivism.
??!?  With two years under your belt, you should be able to answer this without hesitation. What do you think?


Post 2

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bridget, how would you like anyone being able to do whatever they want on any property? Or would everyone only be able to do what is acceptable in public everywhere? That would be quite unfortunate. It would be brutal, it wouldn't last.

Post 3

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Where oh where did you here a purported Objectivist call for the abolition of private land ownership?!?!?

Post 4

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've heard it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarian

Not sure how many "Objectivists" support it, but I've seen some in the past.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     An "O'ist" who argues for the abolition (presumbly by the government) of owning 'private land' is one who never understood (if they actually 'read') Atlas Shrugged and definitely never even read Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.
 
     These are people who would sell you office space in The Twin Towers. If these are "O'ist"s, then squares are round.

     Because someone 'calls' themselves ___________ (fill in the blank), doesn't mean they actually are. *YOU* have to decide what *your* criteria is for labelling others (or, for accepting their self-called lable). To leave it up to them for your decision is to accept TV evangelists as having their direct 'hot-line' to god. --- In short: beware potential charlatans/con-artists; or, more accurately, if you 'buy' their story...buyer beware!

LLAP
J:D


Post 6

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John, good enough for re-iteration ...

=============
*YOU* have to decide what *your* criteria is for labelling others (or, for accepting their self-called lable). To leave it up to them for your decision is to accept TV evangelists as having their direct 'hot-line' to god.
=============

Ed


Post 7

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:05amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
** deleted **
(Edited by Jordan Zimmerman on 2/28, 12:13am)


Post 8

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
When I was involved with the LP (15 years ago) it was common to hear people talk about owning that which you "mix" into the land. You can't own the literal land that you are on, just what you add to it. Now, this seems to me to be pedantic.


Post 9

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the replies. I've been debating Geolibs and a couple purported Oists on landownership primarily since it seems their arguments hinge upon two seperate ideas: rights as entitlement[positive rights] and pragmatism. With regard to the issue of rights as entitlement, I often point out how rights evolve as social rules, and as such they are dependent on the particular values the individuals are seeking to achieve [being that having the right to do something meanings nothing if a value or purpose is not there to utilize it]. Yet, I've been told then I do not support rights since I do not accept that individuals are intrinsically entitled to rights and that I do not accept Natural Law theory of rights. And since I also do not accept mere pragmatism as the reason to accept Geolibertarianism and other such theories, I've been often called an idealist. Yet, I have to wonder, isn't a person that assumes rights come from Nature more of an idealist considering it takes a big leap in logic [or would it be faith?] to accept that proposition? Ultimately, I end up feeling like I'm a windmill in a Don Quixiote contest, so I've left the debates on the issue for a while.


Post 10

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bridget,

I agree with what you have said in your post: there are no intrinsic rights. A life form has values, that which he acts to maintain or achieve. The life form then determines which rights he and other things should have so that he can maximize his ability to maintain and achieve his goals. These rights that an individual determines he should have are called "natural" rights. Some life forms determine similar sets of natural rights and can live in harmony of interest.

The people in power choose the civil rights. Civil rights are the actual rights that you have in a society.

Post 11

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Clearly, all of this problem/puzzle boils down to what the definition/criteria is that one uses for, and/or one's understanding-others'-use-of, the term... 'rights.'

     Not being 'on the same page', or, concerned with whether or not others are,  (by avoiding doing the above) will definitely cause pointless (and near never-ending) mis-understood, cross-wavelength discussions.

     If one doesn't clearly 'define' one's own useage of the term in whatever context, then one is just asking for equivocation (accidental, or, purposeful) arguments coming back to one. --- If one 'defines/delimits' the meaning of how one's using the term, in the context that one's using it, one can clarify where responders are going 'overboard' in their argued rebuttals; if one doesn't do this...expect 'deuces-wild' in responses, and confused (but, unrecognized as such) interactions thereafter.


     Re 'intrinsic' rights: contrary to popular "O'ist"  impressions, some things really ARE 'intrinsic'. Simple example: in physics, think of matter, mass, gravity, etc. Like 'bees and honey': "Ya can't have one without the...O-THER." --- More relevently, in...O'ism philosophy...think of Rand's O'ist (metaphysical aka existential...[how 'intrinsic' can one get?]) quote from Galt's speech, which starts off the whole subject of the 'source' of any worthwhile meaning to the term rights: "Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival."

     I repeat: how 'intrinsic' (or, maybe the more apropos term is 'inherent'! [indigenous? innate?]) can one get?

     If one's arguing rights in the O'ist framework, one starts with Galt's quote, or...one's using the term rights in a radically contrary way.

LLAP
J:D


Post 12

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 10:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
True about things of quantity being intrinsic, but what Objectivism points out is that ideas, concepts, and thoughts are not intrinsic. It's a more balanced view of Nature in a way that accepts the mind without falling for the fallacy of Idealism, or the belief that the mind is some how superior to Nature itself. Essentially, Objectivism on this view is a Naturalistic philosophy since Rand clearly was influenced by Naturalists such as Aristotle and company. But her integration of the independent threads of empiricists, naturalists, and some rationalists isn't mere accident since it seems to me, some scientists follows to the same conclusion about Nature and the mind. Basically, Objectivism says Nature may be intrinsic but our ideas about it or ourselves are not. This doesn't lead to the existential drivel that is often taught as 'factual' in American or French philosophy circles, but rather this often is the basis of modern science, epistemology, and metaphysics. Because of this balanced view of ideas being not apriori, it leaves open the possibility of discovering which ideas follow from what is observed either as a quantity or action, and which ideas do not.

Rights do not follow as intrinsic since rights are in themselves references to actions. Actions in this regard, when not exercised do not need rights to be assured. Often actions are done in societies that are deemed wrong, such as certain sexual practices among consenting adults or individuals expressing viewpoints that are deemed punishable by death. Rights in such situations are merely meant to say, "Hey, in this place and in this time, these things that do not do harm are accepted as open to practice." But from that view, one cannot derive that rights sanction the action or actions in question either. It merely asserts that such actions are open to use freely without legal intervention. Ultimately, that leaves open the possibility of things that even Objectivists find abhorent [I can name a few, but who cares? ;)], yet to Objectivists it is more abhorent to restrict the free exercise of a non-harming action, or more specifically a non-harming action that does not involve non-consenting individuals. In that view, rights express the freedom to define one's self and find value to it. In short, rights are moral ought-bes, but not will-bes, or ARE-bes [mmm...Arbies...Oh sorry!]. Thus, it does not follow to exclaim, "Rights must be intrinsic for one have them" because if that were so, then the fact that humans do not intrinsically have ideas then one could not have ideas, which is often the argument many Natural Law theorists purport in many gordian-knot like ways.

And to claim that Galt's speech infers an intrinsicism to rights is quite wrong when compared to d’Anconia's points about morality being a free choice. In that view, it logically follows that rights do ensure human life, but human life is ensured not by the mere existence of rights, but what rights allow humans to do. Imagine a time where it was illegal to cut open the human body, living or dead, for any reason and that the punishment for it was death? In the time of DaVinci this was the norm for the majority of European governments and localities. For DaVinci had to work in secret on the corpses of individuals to figure out how the human body operated from motor function to the circulatory system. Unfortunately, his results had to be equally secret, thus his contemporaries of that time could not benefit from his knowledge no matter what since it would be considered abhorent and evil. But imagine if in DaVinci's time such laws were removed and a promotion of individual liberty was allowed? Imagine the scholars of science in DaVinci's time not under constant threat of death and inprisonment? Such a freedom or liberty wouldn't just benefit the scientists of DaVinci's time, but it would benefit society as a whole since individuals left to their own devices to reason issues out without fear of force are often capable to resolve problems, improve their life, and the world in general. Rights in such a case are apparent since it assumes individuals are capable to think and take responsibility for their own mistakes on an individual basis. In such a view, Galt's speech becomes clear, in so much that his speech is about rights being the best means to a moral society and that such a moral society is far better than its opposite form of a 'permission society' where an individual must ask permission for every act, especially those acts which happen among consenting adults that include no others that did not consent. It concludes that such an anti-permission society, an open society produces the best good since good is viewed to be a benefit to individuals, and it will occur more so since individuals will be more free to do so.

If that makes any sense...

-- Bridget
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 3/01, 10:42pm)


Post 13

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
From Wikipedi: "An intrinsic property is a property an object or an action has in itself, wholly independent of any other object, action or consequence." Usually when someone declares something as intrinsic, I think they mean some property that exists even when no life form with goals exist.

Objectivism's rights work like this: if you want to live, enjoy your life, and achieve/maintain your goals, then X are the freedoms you should have and others should have. The freedoms are determined by examining a man and the rest of reality that he interacts with. The rights that a man desires for himself and others is dependent on his goals. So in that way, I would not call rights intrinsic.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John Dailey - I do not understand why you write the way you do, with various bold, italics, underlines, and strange punctuation.  It is very hard to understand what you mean when you write this way, what is with that?

Post 15

Friday, March 3, 2006 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kurt, because it takes one to know one ... I would like to make the following conjecture ...
 
John is **s-p-e-c-i-a-l**
 
'Special' Ed
[ I tend to understand his idiopathic savant-speak, but don't always -- **therefore**: I 'spect I'm not quite that **s-p-e-c-i-a-l** ]


Post 16

Friday, March 3, 2006 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Don't be talking bad about special ed, I use to ride the short bus... *shudders* ^__^

-- Bridget

Post 17

Friday, March 3, 2006 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
=============
Don't be talking bad about special ed ...
=============

Amen, sister.

Ed


Post 18

Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think John's funny! 

Post 19

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed:

    Hey! THAT emphasis style is s-o-o......c-o-o-l!

    *I* gotta try that some time (but, not now; I'm trying not to be [snicker] funny. Well, we don't succeed in EVERYthing, I guess.)   :D
 
All:

     Thanx for your perspectives on the nature of rights and their relation to morality and the irrelevence of Galt's speech to them within O'ism's framework. (I got the impression that some find the existence of them dependent upon morality itself; strange, for O'ists.)

LLAP
J:D

P.S: I have a g'kid who takes the 'short' bus. I agree. Leave the 'short' bus alone. (Check my profile.)


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.