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Post 20

Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 8:22amSanction this postReply
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"Are you suggesting that 'insider trading' is wrong?"

No, I am not saying that "insider trading" constitutes fraud. "Insider trading" is the not imparting of false information, but the use of privileged undisclosed information for your own gain over other that of other investors.

However, it IS a breach of share-market rules by which you must abide if you want to participate. And if that rule is not adhered to, confidence in that market will be lost and it would collapse as a result.



Post 21

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 4:32amSanction this postReply
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Marcus Bachler wrote: Failure to deliver, means failure to honour an agreement to supply the goods or services originally offered in exchange for money paid.

"... for money paid." is redundant.  You still seem to be accepting the collectivist view of the marketplace: consumers with money buy things from sellers. 

Failure to deliver would include the failure to "pay" money (however defined).  Failure to deliver is a default on the part of either side of a transaction.

Marcus Bachler wrote:  So why is it not also fraud when a seller on purpose gives incorrect information about a product so that someone will buy it? Have they not also in this way "failed to deliver" what they claimed?

The blind horse that knew its way around its farm and so passed a buyer's inspection is the classic case.  The problems with your claims involve knowing what you mean by "seller" and  "incorrect information" and "on purpose" and even "buy."

Do you participate in any markets other than being an employee and a retail consumer?  The reason I ask is that I can throw out hundreds of examples from the hobby of numismatics where buying and selling money in an unregulated marketplace is what we do for fun. 

You seem not to have much experience with a laissez faire economy.


Post 22

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 5:02amSanction this postReply
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Marcus Bachler wrote:
"Insider trading" is ...  the use of privileged undisclosed information for your own gain over other that of other investors.  However, it IS a breach of share-market rules by which you must abide if you want to participate. And if that rule is not adhered to, confidence in that market will be lost and it would collapse as a result."

And so, therefore, Martha Stewart deserved to go to jail???


Post 23

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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Martha Stewart was not charged with insider trading nor was it possible for her to be so charged — she was not an insider.

Post 24

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Who said you must abide - and who makes the rules? Not the marketplace.

Post 25

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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My understanding is that the stock exchanges are (nominally) private organizations that allow certain stocks to be traded on their floor. In order to get some particular exchange to trade your stock you would have to abide by the rules of that exchange. Saying this does not deny that the government has illegitimately meddled where it ought not to — I'm just pointing out that, yes, the marketplace can very well establish rules of operation that a company would do well to abide by.

Post 26

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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It was the Government which created this 'insider trading' notion, not that market place - at least in the sense of restrictions, as if were a wrong or illegality.

Post 27

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You are as incomprehensible as ever. I don't know what the hell you are talking about in your response to goods being delivered. As for Martha going to jail - I said insider trading should be a market "rule"! A rule is not a law! Can't you read?

Robert,

I didn't realize that prohibition of insider trading didn't originate from the market. However, there is no specific law against "insider trading" in the US.

"In the United States there is no general federal law directly prohibiting insider trading. Authority to prosecute cases of insider trading came from the Supreme Court's interpretation of Section 10(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and SEC Rule 10b-5, prohibiting fraud in connection with the purchase or sale of securities."

I don't agree that "insider trading" constitutes fraud.

However, how can a privately run share market function without the prohibition of insider trading? Would not rampant "insider trading" lead to uncertainty and falling value of stocks in the market?


Post 28

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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I cannot say, as only was told this from others - and is possible their info was erroneous.... but my understanding was that it existed long before Milikin and Martha, and was not considered an anti-market functioning.... as I recall, Thomas Sowell wrote a few things on this off/on over the past decade or so, but don't have it before me at this time just where....

Post 29

Friday, March 11, 2005 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Robert you have made me realize my misconception about insider trading. It's not needed as market rule after all. I found the following:

"In practice, prosecutions for insider trading tend to be rare and difficult to win for a variety of reasons. It can be difficult to prove what the accused actually knew at the time the trades were made -- and people may not even be told directly but merely advised to buy or sell with a nudge and wink. Proving that a particular individual was responsible for a trade can also be difficult, because a clever trader can hide behind a variety of nominees, companies, and proxies, some of which may be located offshore in jurisdictions that don't cooperate with the local authorities.

Advocates of legalizing insider trading assert that insider trading is a victimless act, pointing out that a stock will eventually move when the non-public information is released regardless. It is claimed that insider trading laws are not aimed at protecting the general public from a crime perpetrated against them but rather serve to relieve what some believe to be a matter of "unfairness" if someone profits by having more information than them. Advocates will claim that making money by having superior information is what the stock market is "all about" and that allowing trading by anyone based on any information they have available will increase the efficiency of the stock market."


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