About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Monday, February 16, 2004 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I am new to objectivism and have been trying to soak up as much of the structure of the philosophy as I can but I am in need of some examples of implementaion. I am not looking for people to think for me as I am looking for some concrete examples of the system (in relation to personally chosen values) being put into practice.

What I am concerned with is the actual creation of the structure of values - how to place them into an order - how to trace higher "spiritual" values to material ones. I have begun to do this on my own but I am wondering if I actually have the system correctly understood.

Thanks.
CADman904

Post 1

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 1:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I wanted to share one example of value creation. I am offering this to see if I correctly understand the objectivist logical structure. On page 70 of David Kelly's beta draft of "The Logical Structure of Objectivism" he says that "Anything that satisfies a need is a value. Prior to that on page 69 he says "A need is a condition whose presence significantly enhances an organism's ability to preserve itself, or whose absence significantly impairs that ability."

One need that I have identified is to have a nice lawn. But I had to ask myself if this was a "disconnected" desire or a need. If it was a desire then isn't that just "grabbing" for something without actually understanding why I need a nice lawn? I began to ask myself if I was coming at this from the right direction.

I then began to wonder if there might really be a need for having a nice lawn other than "because my neighbor's lawn looks nice therefore I should have a nice lawn."

I began thinking that possibly having a lawn that is never mowed, never worked would allow pest and rodents to live closer and in greater numbers to my home thereby allowing for them to spread disease and reducing my overall value of life. Perhaps I am "overanalyzing?"

I also began examining what would go into the production of a nice lawn. Learning about fertilizers, reading literature (lawn care education) on helping grow a nice lawn, etc is in Kelly's words "spiritual values." Other factors to improve my lawn would be adding sprinklers, trees, flower beds, other misc landscape planning and tools for maintenance all come into play.

All of the above can fall under the greater idea of "property" which I divided between structures that sit on it and the land itself.

Am I going about this correctly or am I "overboard?"

Post 2

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Tim

You've raised an interesting question.

Are you overanalyzing? Are you going overboard? Only you can answer that. Everyone has a different "need for cognition". We are each comfortable with some level of explicit reasoning, and some level of intuition.

Life offers us an endless buffet of optional values. Living rationally means choosing consciously from the buffet, but not with so much deliberation that one is paralysed. Analyze when necessary and appropriate; but don't be afraid to use your intuition when appropriate (or when necessary).

Objectivism grounds values and virtues in reality. But the values you choose to pursue are up to you.

You're quite right that developing and maintaining a lawn offers spiritual (and aesthetic) values. But it's a great value to some, and a lesser value to others. It's optional. It all depends on your psychological make-up and your goals.

Are you going to enjoy the process of developing and maintaining the lawn? Are you going to appreciate it? These are perfectly legitimate questions -- not hedonistic -- because a lawn is an objective (but optional) value.

Perhaps the most significant question you need to ask is this: Can you integrate this value with your long-term goals? To what extent will pursuing this particular value help or hinder you in the pursuit of your major, personal objectives and values?

What do you reckon? Does what I've written seem too subjective? Or do you think it strikes a balance between objectivity (grounding values in reality) and intuition (partly entrusting to one's subconscious the process of identifying and choosing some values).

Post 3

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 1:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Barry,
Thanks for the reply – I was just reading your column [The Art of Asking Questions] at the “Atlasphere.”

You wrote:
Can you integrate this value with your long-term goals?

Tim:
I guess I need to examine what my long-term goals are. This may help me place my values into a context - no? Off-hand I would have to say that if I were to place my lawn into the context of monetary value then it would be a great asset to produce such a lawn. Perhaps a long term goal would be to increase my property value by “x” dollars over so many years which would in turn help me identify which values are necessary to achieve it?

As I said I am new to objectivism and I am trying to get a handle on implementation.

You wrote:
Life offers us an endless buffet of optional values. Living rationally means choosing consciously from the buffet...What do you reckon? Does what I've written seem too subjective? Or do you think it strikes a balance between objectivity (grounding values in reality) and intuition...

Tim:
I think you have tried to strike a balance which is good. But I am wondering if you mean that choosing from the “buffet” is an arbitrary or whimsical pick – which I highly doubt you are saying – or, with reference to choosing consciously, I am creating long-term goals and picking values to meet those goals?

Thanks,
Tim

Post 4

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, Tim, that's the way I see it. Choosing from life's "buffet" should be neither arbitary nor whimsical, but guided by consciously-chosen, long-term values.

But if your long-term values are few, narrow and one-dimensional, you can quickly find yourself living an unsatisfying, Spartan existence. Of course, it's possible to choose to live such a Spartan existence, if your goal is some great achievement that would be impossible without such ascetic discipline. But you probably wouldn't want to live that way simply for not giving enough thought to a wide range of long-term goals, which could include goals pertaining to: health; personal improvement; interpersonal skills; relationships; career; financial security and independence; knowledge; experience; spiritual/aesthetic values; travel; adventure; enjoying life; having fun; etc.

The challenge is to find a personally meaningful way to get your mind around all these possibilities, and to "know thyself" sufficiently well so as to place these goals and values into a reasonable, satisfying and effective hierarchy.

Actually, "hierarchy" is not sufficiently accurate. That terms suggests a single list of ranked values, whereas what you really need to develop is a "matrix" of values. Separate different kinds of values and goals: abstract values; means; ends; concrete goals; specific experiences that you want to be part of your life.

Bring together those that are similar in some way, and rank them according to a combination of objective standards, and your own personal tastes and sense of life. Why are your personal tastes and sense of life important? Why can't you rely solely on reasoned, objective standards?

Let me give you an example of why you need to balance articulated reason and sense of life. Every year thousands of young people complete all sorts of tests to help them decide on a career path. Many of them find the tests advise them to enter careers to which they are supposedly suited, but which they find totally uninteresting, or even disgusting.

These tests pose as objective. They claim the authority of being scientific. And they appeal to our willingness to accept well-articulated reasons. But if people blindly follow the results of these tests, without critical interpretation and evaluation, the outcome may well be wasted years of misery, preparing for a career for which they may well have the appropriate skills, but not the requisite sense of life and values.

If you have a strong gut feeling about something, you would do well to discover why you feel the way you do. Chances are your sub-conscious or intuition has already identified something that your conscious reasoning has overlooked.

Reasoned choices must be your guide in the end; but they are better choices if they take into account and examine your own personal tastes, personality, and sense of life.

Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.