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Post 0

Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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I used to annoy Scott DeSalvo by questioning whether it was possible to get *that* big on just a couple of short, high-intensity workouts a week. (And what on earth is rational or beautiful about *being* that big?!) I don't believe Mentzer didn't use steroids. Why did he die of a heart attack at 51 otherwise?

Moreover, in philosophical terms, Mentzer was a one-shoe-fits-all rationalist, misusing the Law of Identity to justify such an approach.

At TOC-Vancouver, Francisco Villa-Adonis advocated a Mentzer-like approach to weight-training. Francisco himself, however, is *not* of grotesque, steroidal proportions (interestingly, he said his hero was the diminutive & slightly ridiculous Clarence Bass!).

Linz

Post 1

Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I'd like to interject on this point, because Francisco has been my fitness consultant for the past few months.  This type of high-intensity exercise does work wonders.  Thought I don't know about its application to someone trying to achieve a competitive bodybuilder's physique, it is far more effective than any kind of exercise I've ever done.  And I'm in the gym for 20 minutes, twice a week -- it's like I've found exercise Mecca.

(Francisco also trains as a boxer and wrestler five days a week in addition to his high-intensity workouts, so these activities are going to have a different effect on his physique than if he were to do straight weight training.)

Mike Mentzer opened the door to a whole new way of training the body, and the efficiency of his method is utterly brilliant.  'Course, yer just mad because Francisco wouldn't show us how he Looks Better Naked.  ;)

Jennifer


Post 2

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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I am indeed dismayed at the absence of empirical proof proffered for Look Better Naked, as I have made clear on many occasions. Snort! Stomp! But realise I am not doubting the effectiveness of short, infrequent, high-intensity workouts. I just don't believe they build you into steroidal freak proportions a la Mentzer. I *do* believe they can build you into sensible, Greek Adonis proportions a la Francisco Villa Gorgeous. Understand, it's not the concept I'm criticising. It's Mentzer, first of all endorsing the grotesque, gargantuan look, & second, pretending his method created that for him when he clearly was on steroids.

Linz

Post 3

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 4:55amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

One of my Objectivist Club members, a very muscular and chiseled guy who works the HIT program once a week in his garage, brought Mike Mentzer to my attention several years ago when he joined our club.  He informed me that Mentzer had "freak" genes that made him overly muscular from birth.  These same genes brought his health problems and premature death.

As an example of the extraordinary nature of his genes, my fellow club member informed me that Mike started weightlifting at age 17 and immediately had the ability to bench press hundreds of pounds.

His father died of the same heart condition around the same age as did Mike.  Mike's brother, Ray, suffered kidney problems and the stress of Mike's death brought his own demise within a day or two.

What I have just stated stands as the "official" story.  I have no idea whether Mike used drugs or not.  However, as Arnold Schwarzenegger would say, to have a bodybuilder's physique, one needs to "pick the right parents".  If that happens, then HIT produces substantially greater gains in that person than it does in the rest of us.

As for myself, I tried Mentzer's program for a couple of years before my local gym closed.  I got mixed results based on my mixed efforts.  Pushing those limits requires a great deal of mental focus which I found hard to muster.  I find myself much happier with Tony Horton's Beach Body Power 90 DVD system because I can do it consistently on my own time in the privacy of my own home with Tony coaching me forward from the video screen.


Luke Setzer

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 9/18, 8:20pm)


Post 4

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Ah, ok.  I agree that the gargantuan look is most unattractive.  Some people do have those freak genes -- one of my brothers lives on Haagen Dazs and hot dogs, and hasn't done a day of working out in his life.  Nonetheless, he has a washboard stomach and an incredible physique.  Bastard.  ;)  (And I mean that in the nicest way.) 

Post 5

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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I've been tracking the bodybuilding scene for over a decade - I've even competed in natural bodybuilding (5th place; light heavy-weight class) - I have publications dating back to 1981 - and I agree with Linz.

Mike Mentzer built his massive physique well before this H.I.T. can-do-it-without-both-volume-training-and-drugs training philosophy sprang from his pen. When he competed, steroids were not a felony, and it's a good bet that all the greats from the 1970s-1980s were using them.

Contrary to short-sighted opinion, assuming that he used steroids in his time does not, a priori, take anything away from him - nor does it make him immoral (individuals own their body). Ask these behemoths who'd win if drugs were taken out of the picture and you'll get a collective admission that the rankings won't change.

Better yet, ask Flex Wheeler - who came clean, lost a good 20-lbs, kept competing (minus 20-lbs!), lost sorely in competition, and still kept his head up. Steroids add 20-lbs, but they do it to everybody - the best are still the best, but the crowd is more enthralled.

Ed

Post 6

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 8:22amSanction this postReply
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I want to throw in that the HIT method is not considered as the best way to size gains (not to say that concensus makes a fact true or untrue, only that those who are much more experienced and knowledgeable in bodybuilding than myself have demonstrated this fact empirically). In actuality, HIT is known in bodybuilding circles to increase strength while decreasing lean body mass. As one who has applied HIT techniques to his workout, I can attest to this phenomenon.

As far I as I know, the one training method solely based on scientific evidence and research is Bryan Haycock's Hypertrophy-Specific Training. 


Post 7

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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 nor does it make him immoral (individuals own their body).
Just because an individual owns his own body, doesn't mean he can do anything he wants to it without being immoral.  It does mean that other people shouldn't use force to prevent him from doing immoral things to his own body; but that's different.  If a person knowingly chooses to use some kind of steroid that is going to seriously endanger his health, that is immoral from an Objectivist perspective, because it works against his own survival.


Post 8

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel, Ed,

If a person knowingly chooses to use some kind of steroid that is going to seriously endanger his health, that is immoral from an Objectivist perspective, because it works against his own survival.
 
Oh no. The purpose of life is to enjoy it, not make it last as long as possible. If someone does something that makes it possible for them to fully enjoy their life in a way they would otherwise not be able to enjoy it, if their life would otherwise be merely survival and miserable, it would be morally wrong for them to avoid the risk entailed in enjoying their life for that sake of possibly living longer.

The measure of life is not in how long it lasts, but how much living one does while alive, and how much they enjoy it.

Regi




Post 9

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Great point Regi (better to put "life" in your "years" than "years" in your life)! I actually don't require this great point of yours in order to quell Daniel's criticism, however. Daniel has made a common assumption that is self-refuting.

Daniel, while you do have good points, in that an individual ought to be doing what is best for them (and that it's always wrong to coerce others), you do make an unsupportable assumption, though a popular one.

In the popular press, steroids are stigmatized as something deadly. Indeed, recent re-classification of anabolic steroids into the Schedule IV drug category (along with cocaine, heroin, etc) has led many to a guilt-by-association fallacy. It runs like this:

-If the government places steroids in the dangerous drug, felony-for-possession category, then steroids must be seriously harmful to humans (because the government always and only operates with our best interests in mind).

-The government can "know" that steroids are a health hazard, even if the scientists who've been experimenting with these drugs for several years - recording their findings all along the way - cannot find this "hazard."

-The government can trump science (tryptophan, Ephedra, etc) when there is a doubt - indeed, this is of great benefit to us (using millions and millions of our tax dollars to head-off suspected dangers - before they are even validated by science - is a good thing)

In short, only 2 serious hazards are well known.

1) high-doses of oral steroids can damage the liver; and

2) prostate cancer, once initiated by the marriage of genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger, may proliferate in response to high levels of some steroids (e.g. testosterone). Even this relationship is sketchy however, and estrogen - not testosterone - appears to be the major hormonal culprit.

And that is all we know regarding "serious harm" from steroid use. Much of the recent research shows BENEFIT, and without serious harm. Recent research has increasingly focused on the elderly, who are more likely to benefit due to initial hormonal deficiency.

There is even a scientific move - but interestingly, not a medical one! - for the pilot use of injectable testosterone to treat Andropause (male menopause).

It's as if the medical experts can't swallow prescribing steroids after jumping on the bandwagon for so long and telling the public about how "dangerous" they are - without material evidence of this danger, of course.

Ed

Post 10

Friday, September 17, 2004 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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Grrrr.....There are a few things that need addressing here, Linz (and others). First, Linz writes:

"But realise I am not doubting the effectiveness of short, infrequent, high-intensity workouts. I just don't believe they build you into steroidal freak proportions a la Mentzer. I *do* believe they can build you into sensible, Greek Adonis proportions a la Francisco Villa Gorgeous. Understand, it's not the concept I'm criticising. It's Mentzer, first of all endorsing the grotesque, gargantuan look, & second, pretending his method created that for him when he clearly was on steroids."

Thank you for the clarification. With you, at least, Linz, we can move on from the validity of the theory (that Heavy Duty HIT is the easiest way to the greatest increases of lean muscular mass with the shortest time committment). Heavy Duty/HIT is NOT a training system to optimally lose weight, reduce risk of heart attack, make you a better athlete, increase your stamina, or improve your Tae Kwon Do skills (though it does all of these incidentally). People using HIT for these purposes would do better to look for sport or goal specific training prescriptions. But for gaining mass, Heavy Duty/HIT is the best prescription. After all, you don't take an aspirin for a stomach ache, so why would anyone bash HIT for failing to induce training-specific adaptation it is not desgined nor intended to produce? Yet people do. A failure of logic and common sense.

The fellow above who says HIT makes you gain strength and LOSE mass, well, not only can I attest for myself and several training partners (anecdotally) that his conclusion is incorrect, but it also does not make any sense whatsoever. How does one get stronger? By inducing adaptive changes in the body (i.e., gaining muscle where required to adapt to the last training stress). How can ~anyone possibly~ get stronger if they are not also gaining muscle mass? Magic fairies?

So, now on to Linz's two specific bones of contention.
First: Mentzer advocated men of gargantuan proportions. It is no secret to Linz or anyone else that this is a simple matter of esthetics--of taste. And Linz is more apt to kick an arse for a 'wrong' esthetic preference than I am. So there will likely never be a meeting of the minds here. But let me clarify a few points. First, he was a professional bodybuilder, his chosen endeavor. Being a man of volitional conciousness, to whom his happiness was his highest moral imperative, he wanted to succeed, to win. That is utterly moral and proper. They need to be massive to be competitive. Ergo, to succeed, he became massive. After his competitive career was over, he got pretty big once, to prove he could do it, but by and large, after his competitive career, he never got monster freaky huge. Really, we have very little evidence of his personal preferences in men or women. I will leave the esthetic preference for freaky large men alone after making this point--being attracted to freaky large men is no more metaphysically- or sense of life- significant than being attracted to waif-ish, underfed, look-like-gawky-teenager type men--or even girls. I cannot understand how you or anyone else can rationally hold differently. And don't break out the 'health' issue, as it is not more risky to be large and muscular than it is to be bulemic and heroin-addicted. Read any model's true biography for what it takes for all but the very few genetic freaks to maintain 100-pound body weights into their 20's and 30's.

Linz's second criticism is that Mentzer advocated the idea that anyone can get freaky huge by using his workout system. This conclusion is like criticizing Ayn Rand for being "selfish" but failing to read her to understand what she meant. Mentzer makes it crystal-clear that, like all genetically mediated traits, recovery ability and the potential to gain muscular mass exist over a broad continuum--with 400 pound NFL lineman at one end, and wee waifish lads on the other--just like there is a range with height, there are 7 foot tall NBA players, and midgets. Simply, Mentzer never writes that anyone is going to gain any muscle beyond what is genetically possible for them as individuals. And such capacity can only be gauged accurately in retrospect.

Contrary to Linz's assertion, Mentzer does address steriods in his in first book, Heavy Duty, where he makes it clear that they are powerful drugs which greatly increase recovery ability, water rentention in the muscle, and so assist in gaining muscular mass. He has given interviews in magazines where he is candid about the fact that he used steriods. In one of his books, he admits that he used steriods. But Linz is correct in pointing out that Mentzer ~doesn't~ advertise this fact on the front page of his books, nor in the first paragraph of any article of which I am aware. Why might this be?

Well, first, possession of steriods is a felony. Second, advocating the use of steriods could be considered an inducement to his readers to commit a criminal act, which is criminal in itself. But third, and most poignant, is the simple idea that most people do not need to even consider steriods to gain the amount of muscular mass they desire. Most women would be ecstatic with a 5 to 10 pound mass gain. Most men would feel like Hercules with a 10 to 20 pound mass gain. Both of these are entirely possible with no pharmaceutical assistance. Mike Mentzer's system is the fastest, easiest way for these legions of people to gain that mass.

But making steriods an overt topic would also obfuscate the purpose of his writing--to turn people on to a system that helps them reach their goals regardless of steriods or any other anabolic assistant. Overt references to steriods would scare away the mainstream, and would relegate Mentzer and his wonderful system to the fringe, where it would find only a small market, limit his income, and help vastly fewer people to acheive their personal goals. Why would anyone intentionally sabotage their product, rather than market it wisely (obviously stopping short of deception)?

Here's another very-relevant analogy for you. Does Linz market SOLO as "Homosexual Objectivism"? Why not? After all, according to Linz, one of the primary purposes of SOLO was to eradicate the inexcusable treatment of homosexuality and homosexuals by Objectivists and Objectivism. Some of its key supporters and 'movers and shakers' are gay. Homosexuality is an often-discussed (but by no means exclusive) topic. But many people who hang around SOLOHQ and the SOLOForum take months to discover that Objectivism and Homosexuality is an issue addressed by SOLO.

The reason is that SOLO is not a homosexual group, and its products are not homosexual products. It is an Objectivist organization, with a wonderful and powerful (and growing) Objectivist message. If SOLO billed itself as a homosexual group, its relevance, and reach and membership would be severely and pointlessly limited. It would be pointlessly exclusionary. Just as the reach of Menter's ideas would be limited by making steriods a major issue when it isn't--not to his intended audience.

Neither of Linz's conclusions about Mentzer are particularly supported by facts, but rather, it is my impression, snap value judgments. And neither of his conclusions seem to be to be very good reason to brand him as immoral. Being Objectivists, we must ~never~ forget that each man is a being of volitional conciousness, free to choose his own mental contents, goals, and the best way to further his personal happiness. Branding someone immoral for conclusions unsupported by facts, and for variances in esthetic preferences, is a dangerous, slippery slope, and not indicative of a "live and let live" attitude which is a fixture of any healthy Sense of Life.

Post 11

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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There are two ways to gain strength: As agreed, by adding muscular mass, and also by -attunement-, ie, more efficiently marshalling the forces available with one's current mass via factors such as subtle changes in form efficiency, and acclimation to sensations of effort and discomfort. In spite of the seeming lack of skill requirements in the simpler training movements, the 'skill of strength' can continue to develop without commensurate mass.

Post 12

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Mark, good points ... here's elaboration:

One can even train in particular ways that increase strength with only MINIMAL increases in mass (heavy load, low volume, long rest periods). Or, if one is so inclined, one can even train in particular ways that increase mass with only MINIMAL increases in strength (medium load, high volume, short rest periods).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't HIT is characterized by a decreasing load--ie. "drop sets" or "descending sets" (loads start out very high, and are reduced--without rest--to continue one giant set to all-out muscle failure)?  In such sets, momentary muscle failure may have been reached up to 5 or 6 times! These "multiple failures" explain its success--as one normal set does comparably little for folks, compared to 3-6 sets per exercise or muscle group.

Ed


Post 13

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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I believe True HIT is only supposed to be one all out working set to failure, per muscle group.  The other ones are just warm ups. The funny thing is, this is not much different than ordinary weight training. If a person goes to failure on every set, to often, they will often overtrain, and begin getting weaker. An effective training routine has to bring these things into consideration. Our bodies grow in the resting period, not the lifting period. Powerlifters and Olympic weight trainers rarely if ever, go to failure. It  isn't necessary, to get bigger, or stronger. Our nervous systems, I believe, have a slower recovery rate than our muscles. It's not so much about an individual muscles recovery rate, as it is more about overall systematic recovery of the body.

I've found that the HIT is good for me. I usually train one muscle group a week. I'm in the gym for 30 min. 3 times week for weights, 3 times week 20 min. for cardio on days not weight training. I roughly do 6 sets per muscle group (that's including warmups, my warmups though,  are usually heavy, (after about 5 min. of cardio to bring up my body temperature) between 5- 12 reps, and I bring the intensity level higher on every set. But, I only do one to failure.

What I've found in the end are these things:

- Machines pretty much suck

-Spend more time outside of the gym then in

- Very the tempo or the time that you lower and raise the weight, a couple weeks slow, couple weeks fast. This will naturally make one have to use lighter and heavier weights. Faster helps for generally more explosive strength ( but is also important for getting bigger), and slower helps by increasing the time the muscle is under resistance, ( This is generally better for muscle growth, BUT, is also important for strength. As long as the weight is sufficient, and the time under tension isn't too long, which would mean the weight is too light.)

- Cardio is not as important as diet, 70% of looking good is about what we put into our bodies, unless one is genetically gifted.

- Weight training (anerobic training) is far more effective then cardio for changing overall body composition.

- If we don't want to feel pain, then we will never look really good.

- Lift to get strong, or don't lift at all.  Theres a lot of bodybuilders that are quite pathetic in their strength even if they look like they are strong. If your going to be big, I say, you should be strong. This comes from training more like a powerlifter or an Olympic weight trainer mixed with bodybuilding stuff. Sticking to the big compound movements, and getting away from the dinky isolation stuff, i.e.- lateral dumbell raises or leg extentions. These to me, are just time consuming, with little benefit.
Compound movements burn more calories, build more strength, and make our body parts work in the most natural way they can, in unison. Strength is also very important for daily activities, especially if one is getting older. I generally never use machines, they give a false sense of strength, make me lazy, and stop stabilizer muscles from getting stronger. Free weights are actually safer when used right.

- Take a week off every month and a half from weight training.


Regards,

Shane

(Edited by shane hurren on 4/06, 11:43pm)


Post 14

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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Shane, as a former bodybuilder (5th place in state), novice powerlifter (945-lb total), and all-around self-acclaimed expert on fitness, I have to agree with most of your points.

However, while it's true that taking sets to failure is not NECESSARY for progress, an increase in training volume of 2.5-5% per week is sufficient for progress. In other words, while it's okay not to go to failure--it is not "okay" to use the same weight (load) for longer than about 6 weeks or so.

Progressive resistance training is just that--progressive. For continual improvement, folks ought to aim for continual increases of around 10% per month initially--and 5-10% per year eventually (as they become more advanced). Even elite lifters (with several years of lifting experience) can gain 3-4% per year.

"Muscle failure" is not as important as planned progress--I'll grant you that.

The objective benchmark has now been set--evaluate your program (or personal trainer) based on this.

Ed



Post 15

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 2:09amSanction this postReply
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Ed, good points.

And good work on your accomplishments. I hope you didn't get the impression that I was bashing bodybuilding, the amount of discipline and hard work that is needed to compete is incredible. Also too, it will very often lead to  self confidence  in other areas of a competitor's life.

Best,

Shane


Post 16

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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I am interesting in getting back to weight training to complement my martial arts training (I have been doing more cardio than anything else) and I was thinking of buying a Bowflex machine.  Money is no problem if it really works as well as they say.  Does anyone here have any experience with this product or does anyone have any other recommendations?

Post 17

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Byron, topping my own list of gurus on strength training is Dr. Ellington Darden, a student (like Mentzer) of the great Arthur Jones, a long-time consultant for Nautilus, an advocate of HIT and an endorser of Bowflex. His own studies with people given Bowflex training indicates major strength gains and weight loss (for those overweight and wanting to trim down). The only problem I see with the system is that resistance is not even, "cammed" to adjust at different points in a rep: rather, it increases as the "bows" bend, and backs off as they straighten. Probably a minor issue. I haven't used the system, but it has an impressive reputation.

I strongly encourage anyone here to check out Darden's website and books (HIT the link above). He makes more sense than most other workout gurus put together -- perhaps because he has a doctorate in exercise science, and his own theories are empirically based.


Post 18

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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I like the approach of "natural bodyweight" training used by Matt Furey and others.

Post 19

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Darden's HIT method seems different from Mentzer's.

Darden recommends a whole-body workout, 1-2 sets per muscle group--slowly-performed reps of 8-12 per set (40-90 seconds of time-under-tension); 1-3 times per week.

However, as I recall (from perhaps more than a decade ago!), Mentzer advocated single, long, drop-sets (where weight is progressively removed throughout the set as muscles fatigue) and 1-3 WEEKS of rest in-between similar muscle groups!

Ed

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