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Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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My issue with this?


Everyone knows that Paul is, at heart, a Libertarian (nothing wrong with that)...but he himself chooses to run as a REPUBLICAN (no doubt it's the only way he'd get elected for anything in Texas. He has run for office as a Libertarian before, by the way.)

I don't personally have a (major) beef with Ron Paul...but this seems a little hypocritical.

He officially aligns himself with a major party, (and has for years...all to keep his Congressional seat) but offers a "protest endorsement" (of sorts) of ALL third parties...so if he's so supportive of third parties, the why the hell didn't he put his money where his mouth is, leave the Republican Party and run this year as a Libertarian?

(Oh....that's right. It's because he'd have even a less chance of winning as a Lib than he did running in the Republican primary.)

Even as a Republican, he shouldn't automatically be expected to support every single policy of the current Republican administration, or any other. That's fine.

But it seems like he wants to benefit from major party support and recognition, and also be a "voice" for third parties.

He needs to make up his mind.

(I mean...Cynthia McKinney?? Are you kidding me?)




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Post 1

Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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There are three issues here - The two-party monopoly, Party loyalty, and how do different players support their party while effectively fighting for what's right even when their party doesn't want them to.

The two major parties share a monopoly that diminishes the power and effectiveness of any third party. Third parties have been shouldered out - one of the few bipartisan efforts you can count on. Some of this is just the nature of the system we have rather than a parliamentary system, but much of it is from slimy maneuvering and rule changing to lock out the third party candidates.

Party loyalty is often not about integrity - which is supporting ones principles, but rather a demand that one abandon a principle - sacrifice it - for the good of the party. The Republican's have been the worst in this way in the past.

If Ron Paul puts his principles and the well-being of the country ahead of the well-being of the party, I think he should act accordingly. He has a right to hold office using any party affiliation that gets him there - if he were a fraud it would be in voicing beliefs he did not hold to get elected. But Ron Paul is famous for saying what he believes even if it is unpopular.

The important sense of running on one ticket or another is that it does NOT limit who can vote for you. Registered democrats and independents can vote for the Republican candidate in Ron Paul's district. And if the local Republican committee wants to get rid of him, they could. They don't because they fear his voters will follow him to where ever he went - Libertarian or Independent. They keep him because they want that win - he stays with them because it is the most effective way to get to Congress. He wants the third parties to become stronger so this isn't the case all the time.

He was a nominee for the highest office, raised more money and received more votes than some of the other candidates but he wasn't invited to speak at the convention. They could have negotiated with him and required that his speech be in support of McCain-Palin - and he could have put together a speech that showed where they aligned with his principles, or he could have had a speech that was attacking Obama - period. But either the party powers wanted him cut out because he threatens their control over using any 'principle' that will work instead of those principles that are right even if they aren't popular, or he wouldn't bend his principles to the degree they wanted.

He pays a high price for being such a bad boy - his own party treats him poorly and won't give him any more power in congress than they have to.

I believe that his endorsement of third-party candidates is ethical and a sign of his understanding how dangerous the power of the current two party system is. I believe he shows great integrity to his principles to be a maverick to a degree that McCain has NEVER been. Just his agitation over other parties lets the public know that "Republican Party" and "Democratic Party" aren't sacred phrases!

Was it unethical for Lieberman to speak at the Republican Convention? Should he be required to support a candidate he doesn't believe in?

Should Sarah Palin not have fought the Alaska Republican Party's corrupt members?

If Ron Paul believes that the parties need competition from the third parties in order to become competitive and to listen to the voters and to express a range of views - does that mean he has to leave the party? I like his plucky persistence in being principled - so few politicians are.





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Post 2

Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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Erica asks about the hypocrisy of running as a Republican while endorsing all third party candidates as such:

He officially aligns himself with a major party, (and has for years...all to keep his Congressional seat) but offers a "protest endorsement" (of sorts) of ALL third parties...so if he's so supportive of third parties, the why the hell didn't he put his money where his mouth is, leave the Republican Party and run this year as a Libertarian?

And Steve replies with the non sequitur:

Should Sarah Palin not have fought the Alaska Republican Party's corrupt members?

Erica's point was not about third parties, and certainly not about party loyalty, but about the hypocrisy of saying you support one cause while you actively support another. Joseph Lieberman's case is entirely different. He did not leave the Democratic party, it left him. It ran a primary challenger against him, and supported this challenger with the party endorsement.

Had Ron Paul won the endorsement of the Republican party, which did not try to make him lose he seat in Texas, would he have made this endorsement? Why did he not make this endorsement earlier? He had to keep his options open - and only now is he free to act as a sour-grape spoiler.

There was no criticism of third party candidacies per se, and no criticism of third party voters in Erica's post either. There was no need to defend against charges she didn't make.


(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/12, 9:37am)


Post 3

Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I didn't criticize Erica. I offered the opinion that the degree of a monopoly involved in our two party system justifies running for office on the Republican ticket as long as one is honest about their principles and beliefs with the voters.

Ron Paul's repeated wins for the Republican's in his Texas district is a joint effort - the party benefits and continues to support this, he wins, and the people choose to endorse him and this arrangement.

Ron Paul persists in trying to bring the Republican party in the direction of Libertarian principles - that's not bad.

My comments were just intended to point out the issues involved. Two party monopolies, Personal integrity, party calls for loyalty - these intersect to generate unusual problems. Sometimes the most bizarre events are signs of the greatest personal integrity - hence my example of Palin and Liberman and my interpretation of Ron Paul's endorsing third parties.

Post 4

Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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LOL!


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Post 5

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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This just gives me more reason to think he is a crackpot.  He says some nice stuff we all love to hear, but the holes in this thinking are too gaping to fill with just that.  Supporting socialists, who are 100% out of synch with his supposed positions, and not his own party - sorry Ron.  That and some of the other practices we discussed during the nomination process.

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Post 6

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:07amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

I think it's a "crackpot's" argument to take Ron Paul's support of the notion of 3rd parties in general as evidence that he's a crackpot. That kind of argument is grounded in an Appeal to Loyalty (e.g. Appeal to Tradition, Appeal to Authority) and merely dressed-up as a contradiction in order to get off of the ground. It rests either on the unsupportable notion that ...

(1) 3rd parties are inherently bad for this country

... or, more likely, on the spurious notion that:

(2) a total rejection of the current bipartisan hegemony is required in order to fight for the progress which is rationally expected from political plurality

In the latter situation, the American progress expected from political plurality has to come from the outside, because the "Washington insiders" have got to be "good ole' boys" -- or they have got to hang up their hats, abandon whatever hegemony they've gained, and get on the other side of castle wall -- leaving their horses inside -- in order to break in again. That is what would be considered to be an "honest" fight.

Rand, herself, spoke about running Republicans who challenged the status quo -- Republicans who specifically were NOT party loyalists. That's how she said we'd win.

Ed

p.s. I was listening to communist radio (Air America) and the announcer said that James Madison in the Federalist Papers wrestled with the notion of political plurality over mere bipartisanship. This announcer (Bill Press?) said that Madison came down on the bipartisan side of the issue because of the lop-sided hegemony that more parties would bring. The argument runs:

If we just have 2 parties then, at worst, the country will be controlled by 51% of the voting population (because of the split of the votes between 2 candidates). If we have more parties, then less % of the voting population get control (over a larger % of dissenters). If there were as many as 10 parties, then only 11% of the vote might mean victory.

The problem with this argument is two-fold:

(1) it appeals to a wrong notion of "vulgar democracy" ( or "mob rule" -- rather than that of a constitutional republic)
(2) it evades the option of instant-runoff voting

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/12, 7:22am)


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Post 7

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Okay, Kurt. I wasn't going to sanction you. But you just demonstrated, in the response you elicited from Ed, the syndrome I like to call Blinded by Love for Ron Paul Derangement Syndrome, or BLIBloFRopAUDS. Having hitched their wagon on his star, some people will admit no fault, and forgive every flaw, which they instead call "bravery." It's one thing to support a candidate. It's another to make oneself a ""crackpot" of oneself over him.

You too Erica. Sanctioned.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/12, 7:52am)


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Post 8

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

BLIBlofRoPaDS
When you can't argue an idea well, then you call your rivals names -- specifically names that are awful hard to pronounce (so that they have trouble defending themselves).

You are a:

Kant/HegelofI'msureI'manObjectivistandevenifIdon'tseemsoyouhavetotrustmebecauseIhavealatentmasteryoftheEnglishlanguage

So there.

Ed


Post 9

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Ed, that's "BLIBloFRopAUDS."

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Post 10

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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Erica's point was not about third parties, and certainly not about party loyalty, but about the hypocrisy of saying you support one cause while you actively support another.

There was no criticism of third party candidacies per se, and no criticism of third party voters in Erica's post either. There was no need to defend against charges she didn't make.  
                                                          (Ted Keer; bold emphasis mine.)
Thank you, Ted...that was exactly the point I was making, and the only point I was making.

This just gives me more reason to think he is a crackpot...Supporting socialists, who are 100% out of synch with his supposed positions, and not his own party... (Kurt Eichert)
This was my response as well, and the reason why I posted this in the first place.
As for his failure to support his own party:

The man refuses to endorse the candidate of the party who holds his official membership (ok, he's a maverick---I get it), but then he only endorsed the Libertarian candidate with the exact same level of support and enthusiasm as the other third party candidates, including liberal, socialist candidates! So, um, what was the point of Ron Paul's candidacy, again?

1) To work to bring the Republican Party to embrace more Libertarian ideals, (as Steve said?)

OR

2) To work to help promote and create a real, viable third party system?

(Both can be considered honorable goals...but don't you kind of have to choose one or the other??)

I think it's a "crackpot's" argument to take Ron Paul's support of the notion of 3rd parties in general as evidence that he's a crackpot.             (Ed Thompson)
Ed followed that sentence with a long and passionate post, but it doesn't address Kurt's point at all.
No one here has said Paul (or anyone else) is automatically a "crackpot" simply for supporting a third party system. Kurt and I think he's a crackpot for endorsing Bob Barr and Cynthia McKinney at the same time, that's all.

Why should I seriously consider anything Paul says about policy ever again?

My problem is that I no longer know what Ron Paul stands for anymore. And I used to think I did.


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Post 11

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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hmmmm, I detect a pattern here. Ted hates anything associated with the Libertarians, or Ron Paul, or choosing not to vote, or opposed to McCain, or calling modern alliances entangling.... Why, because they are all allied in some fashion against interventionism?

Am I right? If so, come clean with us Ted. Are you and John and Michael on a crusade for interventionism to the degree that it rises above all other concerns - above habeus corpus, Americans sanctioning torture, above the precarious state of the economy, above mixing church and state, above probable cause, above the concept of self-defense, etc.

If we live in such dire danger, and if that danger cannot be addressed without destruction of so many liberties - it should be addressed directly. Not by all this attacking of everything that might not parallel interventionism 100% - and this siding with lots of mixed premise positions because they do parallel interventionism.

p.s., Ed's response to Kurt was reasoned and civil. It merited better treatment than Ted gave it. People here at ROR picked up the practice of calling Ron Paul a crackpot from those who want discredit his support of free enterprise. No surprise I guess when the next step is to call anyone that might support Ron Paul a crackpot, even if they are a member of ROR. Next came calling anyone that has a difference of opinion about a post about Ron Paul a crackpot. What great intellectual accomplishment is it to paint ourselves in the mud first thrown by the statists who hate Ron Paul for constantly voting against spending bills and constantly voting against tax increases, and constantly voting against new regulations?

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Post 12

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Erica, you said, "Kurt and I think he's a crackpot for endorsing Bob Barr and Cynthia McKinney at the same time, that's all."

What if the wording of statement had been like this, "I encourage everyone to vote for a third party. I do not agree at all with politics of most of the third parties and with the politics of the Libertarian party only to a degree. But I clearly see a grave danger for our republic if we do not restrain the power now exercised by the two major parties and there is no other way."

Had that been his wording, would you have objected?

And what if he is thinking that democrats should abandon their party for the Green party or the Socialist party - because he doesn't believe they would choose the Libertarian party. And he believes that those on the right should jump ship from the Republican party for whatever feels closest to them, like the Constitutional party. That approach threatens both parties, and doesn't act as strongly as a spoiler.

I just hate to see his unflagging efforts to fight big government for all these years just ignored and to see him trashed when you don't know what his reasoning is. What you do know is that he has never swayed from his position of supporting free enterprise. There is no way he supports socialism - to even imply that makes no sense.

Some of us are starting to trash our supporters, and support some we should be trashing.

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Post 13

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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Come Back to Reality, and Make it Your Home

Well, Steve, you included:

"Am I right? If so, come clean with us Ted. Are you and John and Michael on a crusade for interventionism to the degree that it rises above all other concerns - above habeus corpus, Americans sanctioning torture, above the precarious state of the economy, above mixing church and state, above probable cause, above the concept of self-defense, etc."

but you forgot Mom and apple pie.

My sole concern in this election is foreign policy. Paul is worse than Clinton and Obama here. In case you haven't noticed.

We discussed Habeas Corpus before. You agreed that I was right, and then went back to your absolutist position nonetheless. The issue is a pink herring. The only Americans who need to "fear" for their rights of habeas corpus are those caught murdering our soldiers under flag of truce in Buggerstan, like john "pretty cheeks" walker lind. Oh, but wait, he got a "fair" trial. Fair in the way that OJ did. The good thing about reality is that it will still be here when you immanent dictatorship folks decide to return to it.

Pass the pie.

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Post 14

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

One reason there seems to be so much insulting of Ron Paul is because there's so much blind worship of him on this site that it comes up frequently.

When people find out that the newsletter he published for decades was overtly racist, they claimed it was a witch hunt. The validity of it didn't matter. Ron Paul is our last best hope so we can't let anyone say anything bad about him! Damn the truth!

In this thread, Erica makes a very intelligent and well thought out post. She shows that he ran as a Republican when it benefited him, but he endorses anyone else over the party he was happy to be a part of when he raked in millions in donations. This isn't about party loyalty, and ignoring evils that the party does. If someone was Republican and quit out of disgust, good for him. But Ron Paul used that party for his own benefit and stabbed them in the back at the first opportunity.

I have a serious problem with lack of objectivity. I can't stand it when people want to ignore the truth, for whatever reason. If a Republican defends his party, even when they're acting horribly, then he irrational. But the same is true for those who ignore Ron Paul's flaws out of their own sense of loyalty. Evasion is not ever a virtue, even when you are evading the facts about someone you otherwise think is great.

You can vote for Ron Paul. You can give him money. You can put signs up on the street. But as soon as you start lying for him, or evading facts because they aren't convenient, I've got a problem.

Your own argument is that because he's fought big government for all these years, he shouldn't be trashed by us. But facts are facts. It doesn't matter how great of a legacy he has. Either his acts are hypocritical, or they aren't. And whether you're willing to judge the value he contributed as more important than the hypocrisy he's just shown is your own value judgment. But let's not pretend he's flawless because we want him to be. Put his flaws into context and decide how important they really are, but don't feel a need to ignore reality to keep a positive view of him.

This attitude is why the topic comes up. So many people here are willing to dismiss every fact so they can continue to worship him. The same thing happens with Ayn Rand, where people must rationalize every fault. They do the same thing by attacking anyone who mentions the facts, and accusing them of disloyalty or being on a witch hunt.

On a side note, when this site was merged with SOLO years ago and I was running it, we had some people join the staff who did it for their own personal benefit, but who attacked the organization and attempted to undermine it while they held key positions. Instead of trying to correct flaws, they would encourage all the participants to leave and having nothing to do with the site anymore. Instead of constructive change, they used their position to be destructive. I kicked them out immediately. Not because I didn't want to fix problems or acknowledge them. But because these people were trying to take advantage of the organization. They were trying to take value from it, while trying to undermine it at the same time. I thought it was revolting behavior. It wasn't an issue of loyalty. I didn't care if they quit and tried to undermine it afterward. But this was much worse. It was a kind of theft, and a kind of treason. It was an attempt to steal value while not only not providing value in return, but giving disvalue. It was giving false expectations (like Ron Paul running as a Republican) for the sake of personal benefit (like millions in donations and who knows what else...like book sales), and never intending to do anything but hurt those that helped you.

If anyone wasn't blinded by admiration for the guy, they'd see how bad it was. But instead, we have the usual excuses, reverse accusations (you only bring it up because of your ideology!), and attempts to give the benefit of the doubt that maybe there's some secret motivation or facts that translate this into a moral act.

As long as people are religiously devoted to Ron Paul (or Ayn Rand), you're going to see people pointing out the counter-evidence. Yes, it won't do much good, because it is religious and it is based on feelings over facts, but on a site dedicated to objectivity and reason, people aren't going to sit idly by while his devotees gives us all a bad name.







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Post 15

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I don't put up signs for Ron Paul, or send him money, or worship him. I have pointed out that he is against abortion and that I don't agree other positions of his. If I saw racist statements from Ron Paul I'd disavow him.

But lets be real clear about something - You accused me of lying and evading. That is out of line, it is unwarranted, it is without even a twisted sliver of evidence and irrational.

Erica saw his position as hypocritical. I made a case that it isn't hypocritical. It is a situation where people are free to take one side or another - and no where does it warrant calling me a liar.

My positive mentions for Ron Paul have been for his votes in congress and for his monetary policy. No one who believes in reason and objectivity can make that into lies and evasions and a lack of objectivity. Your painting me as some kind of "Ron Paul" worshiper is a cheap attack not worthy of anyone that respects the use of words. And as far as a giving people here a bad time, I did no more than offer an alternative explanation to Ron Paul's running as a Republican at the same time he was holding beliefs closer to Objectivism. And for that, I have been the one attacked.

I had no idea that Ron Paul was some kind of anti-christ at ROR.

Post 16

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, I accused you of suggesting we shouldn't talk bad about Ron Paul because he's done so much.  I accused you of wanting to stifle criticism.  And I accused you of trying to shoot the messengers by assuming they're on some kind of witch hunt as the only explanation for why they would criticize Ron Paul.  And now, again, you try to suggest that any criticism of Ron Paul is out of some irrational hatred or fear of him as being the anti-christ.

Ron Paul isn't the anti-christ.  I don't think many people here think he's evil.  But many of us have a serious problem with his supporters and their irrationality.

As for Ron Paul's racist comments, he has simply denied that he knew anything about the newsletter (that had his name on it--something like The Ron Paul Newsletter--and no author).

As for his voting record, it's well known that he plays both sides of the fence.  He pushes to get pork for his own district onto the bills, and then votes against it so he can claim to be libertarian. 

But again, the problem is not primarily with him.  It's with his worshippers who can only explain criticisms of Ron Paul by saying that he must be the anti-christ.


Post 17

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Look at it from my position.

I offer a different position on Erica's post. I'm not critical or hysterical or attack anyone - I just offered a different explanation.

This brings up a lot of objections and I ask why someone that I still believe has voted more often than other congressman for free enterprise is so badly treated here. And for asking that....

The next thing I know I've been accused of lying, evading, being a worshipper, and less than objective.

If people want to make a list of the things that Ron Paul has done that are wrong, fine, it isn't an area I have much expertise in and maybe I'll learn. But what the Hell is calling me a liar got to do with that?

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Post 18

Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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Did Joe really call you a liar, Steve?

"You can vote for Ron Paul. You can give him money. You can put signs up on the street. But as soon as you start lying for him, or evading facts because they aren't convenient, I've got a problem." -JR

Which is the likely logically intended equivalent of this:

"People/one can vote for Ron Paul. They/one can give him money. They/one can put signs up on the street. But as soon as they/one start(s) lying for him, or evading facts because they aren't convenient, I've got a problem."

or

"You intend to vote for Ron Paul, Steve. You yourself advocate giving him money. You would put signs up on the street. And because you, Steve, have started lying for him, and evading facts because they aren't convenient, I've got a problem."

?

Why did you reply so quickly to Erica with your first post in this thread? What she said wasn't an attack on you, and didn't say about Paul what your response implied had been said. It was like you saw the thread, saw the name Ron Paul, and became possessed:

"must...defend...Ron...Paul...at...all...costs..."

This is, of course, a parody. But, do you get the point? No, you did not lie or do any of those things that Joe said people (you pl.) do. But this almost compulsive need to respond to every thread, every post, and to stake out such positions on things like Paul or "entangling alliance" like lines in the sand that cannot be crossed, or approached, or even discussed, without reflexive barking like a guard dog or the siren of an oversensitive alarm makes those of us who want to point out reasoned objections wonder why you and others here protest so much.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/13, 8:25am)


Post 19

Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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I'm wary but not surprised at the "meta-discussion" going on here.

Each side accusing the other of stifling the debate. A curious question is whether both sides can -- at the same time -- be right about that.

I've seen this in here before, when Phirehammer took up homosexuality with Chris Sciabarra -- no wait, there's something about that that doesn't sound "right" -- when Regi Firehammer entered into a debate on homosexuality with Chris Sciabarra.

I get emotional when my values are challenged, and there's nothing wrong with that. So I'm not moralizing here but instead just attempting to say, outright, what is likely on many folks' minds. I like solutions but don't see one here. There seems to be an idea-chasm which won't be crossed anytime soon.

I'm not enthusiastic about that (though I admit that this comes with the territory).

Ed

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