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Post 0

Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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That should have some scientists scratching their heads.

Post 1

Monday, March 31, 2008 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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It may mean that the benefit you can get from statins is all there is and once you get to a certain point, you have to look to other things to reduce plaque buildup.

Jim


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Post 2

Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Studies like this should be suppressed by the government.  

 

The obesity epidemic in America shows that people prefer pill-popping to alleviate symptoms and unhealthy warning signs rather than making lifestyle changes (e.g., diet and exercise).  Lifestyle changes are hard.  Doctors help make life easier for everyone by prescribing multiple medications for their patients because they are altruistic, dedicated humanitarians (and everyone knows that dedicated humanitarians need to drive BMWs and live in big houses).  

 

Studies like this just upset everyone.


Post 3

Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, yes, I'm sure there's a logical explanation, and I firmly expect they'll figure it out! This study does seem to have been run with a special group of folks.

Post 4

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 5:17amSanction this postReply
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James,

The more likely explanation for the differential benefit of statins is that their reduction of cholesterol, per se, is merely an inconsequential side-effect. I have references which back this up, but no time to cite them right now. The big, hairy question is why in the world would hormone pills and torcetrapib lower cholesterol and, at the same time and in the same respect, increase heart disease risk.

That's a contradiction instructing us to check our premises.

Ed


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Post 5

Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 12:29pmSanction this postReply
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That's a contradiction instructing us to check our premises.

Ed, you wild-eyed radical.  How dare you suggest that people question the policy of doling out billions of dollars a year for medications that have more negative side effects than benefits.

 

The truth, however, is that a great many people have long been questioning the merits of the cholesterol guidelines written as part of the National Cholesterol Education Program in 2001. The specious conclusions of their clinical trials were that statins alone could prevent coronary heart disease, and that doctors should focus on all patents found to have LDL cholesterol levels of 130 mg.DL or higher—even though more than half of adult Americans over the age of 35 have LDL levels that high.  Most doctors probably felt that reading the full 284 page version of the NCEP expert panel’s report wasn’t necessary.  They began focusing on lowering LDL levels almost exclusively rather than adopting a more balanced approach to coronary heart disease prevention, and it became standard practice.

 

Here’s a quote from John Abramson, in Overdosed America:

 

“Most heart attacks are not caused by a gradual build-up of plaque.  The more frequent scenario is that a smaller area of plaque for unknown reasons breaks open (“fractures”) or becomes eroded on its surface.  This causes the tiny platelets circulating in the blood to become sticky and form a small blood clot or thrombus on top of the plaque.  Without any warning thrombus formation can quickly and completely obstruct the flow of blood through a coronary artery causing a heart attack.  (Aspirin decreases the risk of heart attack by decreasing the stickiness of platelets, thereby making thrombus formation less likely…” (p. 132)

 

In my opinion, this is only one of many areas where medicine—doctors in collusion (conscious or otherwise) with “Big Pharm”—push pills as a solution to manufactured illnesses, and where the so-called “cure” is worse than the disease.  There is evidence that the symptoms of conditions such as osteoporosis and irritable bowel syndrome, among others, would be much better treated by alternative approaches. And I am strongly inclined to believe that the whole modern day fad of Attention Deficit-Hyperactivity Disorder—both for children and adults-- is largely a fraud.

 

At the same time, most of the medical profession scoffs at vitamins as a “placebo” of no genuine medicinal value.  Unbelievable.

 

Yeah, I would say it is high time for both patients and doctors to begin checking their premises. 

 


Post 6

Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Here's evidence of statins "working" -- without reducing folks' LDLs! -- by reducing "high-sensitivity C-reactive protein" [CRP].

OBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to investigate the impact of statin on systemic inflammation, left ventricular systolic and diastolic function and prognosis in low risk ischemic heart disease (IHD) patients.

METHODS: A total of 430 consecutive IHD patients without congestive heart failure were enrolled. ...

RESULTS: Ejection fraction (EF) was significantly higher in the statin group (p<0.01). The ratio of the early transmitral flow velocity to early diastolic velocity of the mitral annulus (E/E') was significantly lower in the statin group than in the no statin group (p<0.01).

Although LDL-cholesterol level did not differ, high sensitivity CRP level was significantly lower in the statin group (0.3+/-0.5 vs. 1.1+/-2.3 mg/dl, p=0.005). Cardiac event-(cardiac death and congestive heart failure)free survival rate was significantly higher in the statin group than in no statin group (Log-rank p<0.0001).

By multivariate logistic regression analysis, E/E' > 15 (p=0.002), EF < 50% (p=0.003), lack of statin use (p=0.009), left atrial dimension (p=0.02), use of diuretics (p=0.03) and lack of beta-blockers (p=0.04) were independent predictors of cardiac events.

In 248 patients matched by propensity scores, statin remained associated with better event-free survival (Log-rank p=0.006).

--Intern Med. 2007;46(17):1337-43.


p.s. I will, with slight if any modesty, note that CRP is one of the Thompson Big-5 Biomarkers (the TB5B, for short) for "hard" coronary heart disease outcomes (heart attacks & sudden deaths).

;-)

Ed


Post 7

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 2:05amSanction this postReply
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Ed:
Although LDL-cholesterol level did not differ, high sensitivity CRP level was significantly lower in the statin group (0.3+/-0.5 vs. 1.1+/-2.3 mg/dl, p=0.005). Cardiac event-(cardiac death and congestive heart failure)free survival rate was significantly higher in the statin group than in no statin group (Log-rank p<0.0001).

A quote from Wikipedia:
“A common misconception is that a statistically significant result is always of practical significance, or demonstrates a large effect in the population. Unfortunately, this problem is commonly encountered in scientific writing. Given a sufficiently large sample, extremely small and non-notable differences can be found to be statistically significant, and statistical significance says nothing about the practical significance of a difference.”
 

I don’t know if the study you’re referring to was bank-rolled by Big Pharm, but if it was, that factor alone would outweigh any other findings in favor of the null hypothesis.

 

And a single study is of doubtful importance.  Michael Fumento reports that “a 2002 analysis of 48 studies regarding a possible ETS [second hand smoke] link to lung cancer found 10 that were significantly positive, one that was actually significantly negative, and 37 that… were insignificant either way.”

 

Some people questioned those results because some of the funding came from the tobacco industry.  I would question any study funded by Big Pharm showing a statistical correlation with no scientific evidence of causality for the same reason.


Post 8

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

A quote from Wikipedia:
“A common misconception is that a statistically significant result is always of practical significance, or demonstrates a large effect in the population. Unfortunately, this problem is commonly encountered in scientific writing. Given a sufficiently large sample, extremely small and non-notable differences can be found to be statistically significant, and statistical significance says nothing about the practical significance of a difference.”
Thanks for the quote. On the one hand, there's the science (the results of study) and, on the other hand, there's how we should individually and objectively view the science (the results of study). The key issue -- as this quote correctly states -- is that between statistical and practical significance.
 
However, this quote doesn't do justice to the issue at hand. In the interplay between statistical and practical significance, there are 4 possible outcomes -- and it is imperative for humans that they are able to discredit 3 of them before big changes in how we behave are made. Here are the 4 possibilities; consider the issue of choosing, based on evidence, to use a new drug or not (and think about the relation between practicality and discovery):
 
(1) Practical, but not (yet) Discovered -- through our main method of finding such things out: statistics
An actually-practical difference, but no finding of statistical difference -- a "falsely null" finding (usually due to not recruiting enough folks to "catch" the real difference that exists). The Wiki-quote doesn't address this.
 
(2) Practical and Discovered
Detecting an actually-practical difference successfully (no problem here)
 
(3) No Practical difference, no (statistical) Discovery of difference
Again, no problem here.
 
(4) No Practical difference, but a discovered Statistical difference
Note how I capitalized statistical instead of discovery here. This is to what the Wiki-quote is referring. It's also called a "false-positive finding.
 
Dennis, you continue ...
 
I don’t know if the study you’re referring to was bank-rolled by Big Pharm, but if it was, that factor alone would outweigh any other findings in favor of the null hypothesis.
Please state what it is that you take to be the "null hypothesis" here. The most straight-forward interpretation of a null hypothesis is that there won't be expected difference in outcomes stemming from difference in treatments (in this case, statin use). In this case, the null hypothesis would be rejected in favor of the findings -- of a difference due to statin use (even if that difference wasn't the exact kind of difference -- i.e. reduced LDLs -- that the researchers were looking for).
 
I get the idea of checking the conflicts of interest between competing stakeholders in a matter, and reviewing results in light of that. You continue ...
 
And a single study is of doubtful importance.
While it's true that single studies are suspect in virtue of their very singularity, there is the philosophical issue of the "crucial experiment" (a case where a question is answered forever) -- and we shouldn't apply this quote to that kind of a thing. Here's an example of a single study being of a level of importance that is beyond all reasonable doubt:
 
(1) The hypothesis is forwarded that all black and white Americans should be slaves because they need to ride on the coat-tails of folks that have been tested to be more intelligent than they are -- such as Asians and Ashkenazi Jews (aside: funny how "nazi" is embedded in their name).
 
(2) It is discovered that both black and white Americans can be highly productive when left alone to pursue value according to their intelligence.
===============
The hypthesis is rejected (forever rejected) because it involves exceptions to the universal negative: black and white Americans can't be independently productive -- and even a single exception of a universal negative disproves it forever (basic rule of thinking straight).
 
You finish ...
 
I would question any study funded by Big Pharm showing a statistical correlation with no scientific evidence of causality for the same reason.

 
A very good point. However, in this case, there's a consilience of evidence that actual heart disease is heavily inflammatory in nature (rather than based on the mere cholesterol-based occlusion of blood vessels; which has been selling the hell out of our cholesterol-reducing drugs). And this study fits in with this inflammatory theory of heart disease. Another way to say this is that causality is there, though it's not the same cause which has been championed for decades by industry-funded researchers.
 
Ed


Post 9

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the detailed response, Ed.  I regret to say that I do not fully understand your comments about the Wiki quote.  To me, the statement that “statistical significance says nothing about the practical significance of a difference” simply means that correlation says nothing about causality, and a grasp of causality is necessary for a genuinely meaningful conclusion.

 

I get the idea of checking the conflicts of interest between competing stakeholders in a matter…

 

All I am saying is that I do not trust Big Pharm to do statistical studies where they have a vested interest in the outcome.  I question if there was really that much difference in outcomes based on statin use (the null hypothesis meaning zero difference).

 

Are you comparing the study cited above with the reams of inductive evidence supporting the belief that race has little or nothing to do with intelligence and self-responsibility?   Not sure I see how thousands of years of human history compares to a single study of 430 people.  And I don’t get how such a statistical study would ever qualify as a “crucial experiment” disproving an otherwise unsubstantiated theory.  Sorry if I am missing something.

 

….there's a consilience of evidence that actual heart disease is heavily inflammatory in nature…

 

Perhaps so.  You are obviously more knowledgeable on this topic than I am.  I was just questioning the merits of using this particular study as a justification for reliance on statins as a preventative measure for heart disease.  I strongly believe that lifestyle (i.e., diet and exercise) are far more important to longevity than pills.

 

 


Post 10

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

To me, the statement that “statistical significance says nothing about the practical significance of a difference” simply means that correlation says nothing about causality, and a grasp of causality is necessary for a genuinely meaningful conclusion.
That is one way to view what is being said in the Wiki-quote. However, I'm pretty sure that the author meant what it was that I was saying, which can be boiled down to this:

Scientific tools of investigation, such as statistics, can be such crude tools that they fail to detect actual differences that are large enough to be practical -- and that they can also be used in order to detect actual differences which are so small that they have no clinical or practical significance. Here are examples:

(1) Failing to detect the practical difference that actually exists
Dietary supplements of glucosamine sulfate reverse osteoarthritis. Yet when NIH studied glucosamine HCL (note: HCL has never been as potent as sulfate) -- they couldn't reject the null hypothesis (that treatment wouldn't produce a 20% outcome advantage). It was as if it was a study designed to fail.

Glucosamine, chondroitin sulfate, and the two in combination for painful knee osteoarthritis.

N Engl J Med. 2006 Feb 23;354(8):795-808.

(2) Detecting a difference that isn't big enough to matter

To be continued ...


Ed


Post 11

Sunday, April 6, 2008 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Continued ...

(2) Detecting a difference that isn't big enough to matter

Orlistat (Xenical) is FDA-approved for the long-term "management" of obesity in adults. The size of the "treatment effect"? About 5 lbs difference from placebo (usually a low-cal diet). That's right, you're not misreading that -- and I didn't mis-write it. 5 flippin' lbs difference! How paltry! For perspective, the treatment effect of the combination of ephedrine and caffeine is at least twice the effect noted from orlistat (at least 10 lbs, or 4.5 kg, weight loss beyond what dieting alone affords).

Reference:

Pharmacotherapy for obesity.

Drugs. 2005;65(10):1391-418.

Pharmacotherapy for weight loss in adults with type 2 diabetes mellitus. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005 Jan 25;(1):CD004096

Pharmacological and clinical studies of ephedrine and other thermogenic agonists.

Obes Res. 1995 Nov;3 Suppl 4:537S-540S.

The acute and chronic effects of ephedrine/caffeine mixtures on energy expenditure and glucose metabolism in humans.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Dec;17 Suppl 3:S73-7; discussion S82.

The effect and safety of an ephedrine/caffeine compound compared to ephedrine, caffeine and placebo in obese subjects on an energy restricted diet. A double blind trial.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1992 Apr;16(4):269-77.


Ed



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