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Post 60

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

...but what are your thoughts on how punishment should be handled in the case of someone purposely causing damage? What laws to mental trauma fall under?


 
I would think they'd fall under existing harassment laws, no?  


Yes, people should be held accountable for their actions, but how and when?


 
When their behavior becomes a threat to someone else.  Again, harassment and/or making threats against another are already illegal.


Do you only punish someone after he drives another person to suicide?




No.  See above. 

Do you criticize the suicidal person because he was a pansy who didn't fight fire with fire?




That would be unproductive, if not counterproductive.  It would also be cruel.  The real question is, what is the most compassionate way of dealing with such a person?  To me, it would be helping them to acquire the skills that any healthy adult should have to cope with -- or defend themselves against -- verbal abuse and mental cruelty.  But the primary responsibility for seeking such help falls upon the individual, if for no other reason than the fact that the abuse often goes unnoticed until the victim speaks out and/or seeks help.

Summer

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 11/04, 5:29am)

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 11/04, 5:29am)


Post 61

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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I don't understand the distinction Summer is making, if any, between "harassment" and "threats."  If she assigns both the meaning of threats of physical harm, I agree these should be illegal.  If not, I need more elaboration.

For instance, I heard about a man years ago at my work site who got fired for telling a female coworker, "After I am finished with you, there will either be blood on my fist or shit on my dick."  That definitely qualifies as a threat of physical force and should be unlawful.  No charges were filed as far as I know, but he got fired nonetheless.

By contrast, an acquaintance who works at a cell phone plant got fired years ago because a female coworker overheard him say "balls" and "felt offended."  That word clearly had no content that would threaten physical force, but threats of "sexual harassment" lawsuits that line the pockets of predatory lawyers likely compelled his termination.

There are also "indecent exposure" laws on the books that got another guy fired here long before "sexual harassment" laws.  He and a female coworker got into a heated argument on the work floor.  He finally exploded, "Why don't you just suck my dick!"  She retorted, "Why don't you just whip it out!"  He shot back, "All right!  I will!"  He did.  Security confiscated his badge and escorted him off the site.

I should mention that I want to confine the discussion to law rather than to company policy, which might very well justifiably enforce prudish codes of conduct for its employees.  All I am saying is that private property owners need to have the liberty to set their own internal policies rather than have them thrust down their throats by the gun-backed PC cops and their hydra-headed laws.


Post 62

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 6:18amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I don't understand the distinction Summer is making, if any, between "harassment" and "threats." 
To me, harassment is a threat.  If someone is going that far out of their way to make my life miserable, then I have to assume, for the sake of my own life, that they're a danger to me.  Precisely what the law says about this, I haven't a clue.  Please note, though, that I'm NOT talking about 'sexual harassment'.

By contrast, an acquaintance who works at a cell phone plant got fired years ago because a female coworker overheard him say "balls" and "felt offended."  That word clearly had no content that would threaten physical force, but threats of "sexual harassment" lawsuits that line the pockets of predatory lawyers likely compelled his termination.
There's a difference between 'sexual harassment' lawsuits or being fired from a job and criminal prosecution.  As I've stated several times on this thread, I don't agree with sexual harassment laws that would allow for suits and/or criminal prosecution.  But I do believe that a private company has the right to hire and fire at the the discretion of management.  That's a completely different animal.

There are also "indecent exposure" laws on the books that got another guy fired here long before "sexual harassment" laws.  He and a female coworker got into a heated argument on the work floor.  He finally exploded, "Why don't you just suck my dick!"  She retorted, "Why don't you just whip it out!"  He shot back, "All right!  I will!"  He did.  Security confiscated his badge and escorted him off the site
If he wasn't prosecuted criminally, I see no problem with this, as it falls under (what I believe should be) an employer's right to hire and fire as they see fit (although I might question why the woman wasn't fired as well -- as a manager, I might have canned them both).


I should mention that I want to confine the discussion to law rather than to company policy, which might very well justifiably enforce prudish codes of conduct for its employees.  All I am saying is that private property owners need to have the liberty to set their own internal policies rather than have them thrust down their throats by the gun-backed PC cops and their hydra-headed laws.
But if the only action taken in the above two cases was termination, then the law never entered into either.  Except, perhaps, if the threat of civil action was a contributing factor in the individuals' termination (as may have been the case with the "balls" example).

By the way, even without explicit sexual harassment laws, suits could be brought against an 'offender'.  Not saying this is a good thing.

Summer



Post 63

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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Michael-
It is extremely difficult for a child, for example, to leave his home because of being the butt end of repeated irrational rages from one of his parents - even if there is no physical abuse. The resentment and hatred (or sometimes blinding fear) that this causes is a huge inner barrier for a person to overcome.

We have no argument here, my questioning of mental abuse is strictly referring to adults.


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Post 64

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Summer wrote:
But if the only action taken in the above two cases was termination, then the law never entered into either.  Except, perhaps, if the threat of civil action was a contributing factor in the individuals' termination (as may have been the case with the "balls" example).
Right.  I am saying that companies now have to bend over backwards to terminate "red flag" foulmouths or get bent over forwards by litigious employees backed by bureaucratic thugs.  Without the laws, they could still fire such foulmouths, or they could fire the people who complain about the foulmouths.  They do not currently have that option without risking lawsuits.

In the end, we would all do well to scrap the whole system and leave people free to find their own best places to work -- and to adjust their attitudes accordingly.


Post 65

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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In the end, we would all do well to scrap the whole system and leave people free to find their own best places to work -- and to adjust their attitudes accordingly.


Ayup.


Post 66

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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That definitely qualifies as a threat of physical force and should be unlawful. 
No, no, no, no.  Can not sensor thought or speech only deeds.


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Post 67

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison, the point I am trying to make regards credible threats of force.  Would you want to wait until confronted face-to-face with an assailant who has already credibly threatened you with physical harm, or would you want to take legal action to discourage him from further plotting against you?

Just to be clear, I do not mean a casual everyday remark in the heat of argument such as, "I am going to kick your ass."  I mean more serious and believable statements the threat of which have ample empirical support, e.g., obsessive stalkers whose psychotic behavior studies have shown to pose credible threats to the safety of their targets.


Post 68

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Luke you make a proper distinction and suggest legal action.  I agree.

Post 69

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
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Luke:
     Someone suggested a 'flow-chart' you may be able to make to show some interconnecting sense of all this. I've seen a couple of your charts and do believe that you could make a good one.

     If you're...up...to it, I'd think you could really do a good...job.

     My printer pantingly awaits to jet it's inks.

LLAP
J:D


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