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Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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From the article.

On religious altruism, whether Christianist or Islamist:
Those who seek selfless dedication to others, whose objective is to save the world, who make love a religious goal—those have been more successful at mass-murder, terror, and pillage than any Mafia. Only those who are the “servants of God” have succeeded, and continue to succeed, in ruining the lives of countless millions in a sea of blood, tears and, at very least, personal misery.
RD, when I point this out, you flame me - and now you post a link to an article that says what I have been saying. What gives?

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 10/22, 11:28am)


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Two points.

What you call 'flaming" you, began when you called me a troll and for at least a week followed my every post with the message "Do not feed the trolls".  What goes around comes around.

Second, if this were all that you were saying, and said it as elequently, I would find no fault with you; but your position is quite different, fanatical even.   Over and over again you assert that even the slightest hint of the spiritual renders one totally incapable of reason, irreparably corrupted, an inexorable threat to mankind and probably unsanitary.  Someone else here wisely remarked that the slightest glint of a crucifix sends you into paroxysms of irrational fury.  

As counterpoint to your argument, when we were still civil to each other, I pointed to the spectatular acheivements of our founding fathers despite the fact that they were mostly Deists.  Silence was your only response. 

Rand writes, "In mankind's history, the undrestanding of the goverment's proper function is a very recent achievement:  it is only two-hunred years old and it dates from the founding fathers of the American Revolution."  Pretty good for 'believers' wouldn't you say?


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Post 2

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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The history of progress is the history of fighting religious mysticism, religious fanaticism, religious intolerance, religious violence,  religious corruption, and the backward, anti-scientific mentality of religion dating from the infancy of civilization. 
 
During the Enlightenment, great minds advocated the separation of church and state. 
 
I will toast when the word god is banned from every corner of government and I will toast again if the day ever comes when religion fades away as it should have eons ago.
 


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

The founding fathers were mostly deists - except for Thomas Paine, agnostic, and Ethan Allen, atheist. A deist is someone who thinks that probably there is a God of sorts, but not as a matter of religion to believe in, or an authority for Man to submit to.

Today, there is ample evidence that information cannot exist except as attributes or energy or matter. Because to be aware is to be aware of specific information, consciousness is not possible to a non-material entity. To believe in the possibility of a God, as a non-physical but conscious entity, has become incoherent in the light of current science. In today's context, it is no longer possible to reconcile religious belief with both rationality and integrity - something that was still possible a century ago, and widespread in the age of the Founding Fathers.

This means that in the present context, a religious person is only tolerant of his epistemological betters if, like the author of the article you linked to, he is independent enough to live for his own sake and not for the sake of his deity; and is not about to engage in forcing unbelievers to submit to the orders of his religion. I have no problem accepting even a believer as a political ally, as long as he recognizes that it is evil to force others to act according to his religious beliefs. So the author of the article you linked to is an acceptable political ally; Christianists and Islamists who would censor "obscenity," or criminalize abortion, are not. Capisce?


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Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I see no remorse regarding the troll incident.  Fine.  Eating crow is not is for everyone.  To my mind, any attempt to silence others is the initiation of force and therefore wrong by Objectivist standards.  Even bad ideas should not be stiffled.  They should debated and countered with better ideas.  Let the best argument win.

 In today's context, it is no longer possible to reconcile religious belief with both rationality and integrity - something that was still possible a century ago, and widespread in the age of the Founding Fathers.

This is simply specious.  The founding fathers were just as persuaded by science as we are today, but they did not worship Science by accepting any and every pronouncement as unerring truth.  I believe a little scepticism is healthy even when it comes to science.

I have no problem accepting even a believer as a political ally, as long as he recognizes that it is evil to force others to act according to his religious beliefs. So the author of the article you linked to is an acceptable political ally; Christianists and Islamists who would censor "obscenity," or criminalize abortion, are not. Capisce?

.
You say that here, but this is not your consistent opinion.  Consistently you have painted 'believers' with a broad and scornful brush as sub-human.  Your firm believe in the infallibility of your interpretation of Objectivism is a trait you share in common with Peikoff with whom I also sometimes disagree.


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Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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I have as much trouble understanding lack of tolerance towards believers as I do lack of tolerance towards non-believers. Of course, religious intrusion on individuals, slaughter of infidels, replacing science with mysticism and other vices of the cloth are disgusting. My guess is that all regular members of SOLO can agree with that. I cannnot say that all concepts of god are compatible with the sins of religion. In that spirit I say

I confess father that I, Bill Sipes, am a deist.

No harm done, no intrusions, no mysticism in my government, no genuflecting (is that how you spell genuflect??)
I realise the burden of proof is on me. Sorry, I really don't care to prove. I know the burden is not with Atheists, but until I see something reasonable that conflicts with my concept of a god or creator or prime mover of sorts, I find no reason to disallow it from my thoughts. After all, there is enough faith in a mustard seed to move a mountain but if you don't mind, I will bring picks and shovels. 

Sipes


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Monday, October 24, 2005 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Robert-

In my opinion, Adam has generally refined (or "softened," perhaps) his comments about what he calls "believers". I only have my months here for criteria.

I think that he knows a fascist when he sees one, whether their facism is transmitted under guise of religion, or any other. He seems to be much more mindful of the kinds of broad, sweepingly prejudicial statements that can be seen in Objectivism and other places. It is very easy to make mistakes when we start up with any kind of "us or them" mentality. But, there are we and they, for sure- they being anyone who are facists.

Objectivists, more often than not, have explainable reasons behind their myopic statements about religion, and they typically have to do with upbringing and other personal experiences. But, the statements remain myopic to many of us who are part of the free, liberal church. If there is any frustration from our end, it is that we know that we actually have so much in common. It sometimes takes a good while to even get that fact across, but it is effort well-made.

One thing that I would like to point out, particularly as I am a Unitarian Universalist, has to do with tradition and heritage. We are proud of our history and our roots, and we preserve a number of the traditions. Note I said "traditions," not "rituals". This provides a richness of texture in a religious community, and I see nothing but goodness in it.

If you look at liberal religion, it has 3 main components that distinguish it, and make it very compatible with democracy, capitalism, and even Objectivism...

1. Covenant (as in non-dogmatic, non-creed based- people who are joined together in a community)
2. Congregational Polity (as in, we operate in a democratic structure)
3. Freedom of conscience

Learning about faith is like learning a new language. Many of the words we use like "freedom" in association with "religion" and "faith" strike Objectivists as odd. Or, that we don't seem to use some words in the same way as Objectivists have known them to be used in the past. To us, freedom and faith are not opposites. In the free church, doubt, skepticism, and free inquiry are prized tools.

I have even been told that because of these things, we are not actually a true religious community. Told that by atheists who do not belong to a religious community (least of all one like ours, which includes many atheists).  That, I believe, represents ideological fascism on their part, if they will not admit to being incorrect.

Like most things, the problems arise from lack of familiarity.  


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Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

Your analysis is probably correct.


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