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Post 40

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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(Edited by Sam Erica on 8/15, 9:09pm)


Post 41

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

You are the only sane person in this discussion.  Reed is carrying on like Stalin, calling for pograms of so-called trolls for which he doesn't even offer a definition.  He would be a happy man on a site like the Objectivist Forum or ARI.


Post 42

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

You are the God I worship.


Post 43

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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Davison -- Adam's frustration may be driving him to promote things that are a bit over the top but you are really are just becoming an annoying troll.  You offer nothing here in the way of an argument.  Sure, you can go on rambling on about things that aren't really fundamental to this particular issue.  Yes you've proven that you can throw in little ad hominems and chuckle to yourself over in the corner. Yeah you can always just move away from the real fundamental questions by sneaking in subtle little diversions and changing the real subject.   But that just proves that you are a troll.  Are you going to offer a counter arguement that doesn't involve evading the fundamental points involved in this question?  Do you suscribe to Objectivist Epistemology and logic?  If not go ahead and admit it in public.  At least we'll know where you are coming from.  Do you really have an answer to my post 36 above or any of the other substantive arguments that have been presented to you on this issue?? Do you have a REAL answer to it or are you a troll???

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/15, 9:44pm)


Post 44

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian,

I'm not omniscient, but I had such a high confidence as to what you will do that I could plainly tell you. Now, why don't you show I'm wrong by doing something other then what I said you would do? Do not make references to unexplained portions of evolution. Do shed the slightest evidence of an intelligent being (other than a human) at work creating beings, DNA, RNA, or anything.

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Post 45

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I find you a mindless twit and decided to ignore you.

There is one thing you said in Post 36 that was interesting or true--

Arguements against elements of Darwinism are absolutely acceptable if they are based upon valid evidence. 
but only true in theory, not practice. 

If you don't believe me post a few critiques of evolutionary theory (provided you know the subject well enough) and see how quickly you become the troll.  Certain subjects, even here, or maybe especially here, are taboo. Their mere whisper will bring you immediate villification.

That said, it is probably best if we don't speak to each other.


Post 46

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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"I find you a mindless twit and decided to ignore you."

There is the ad hominem.

"If you don't believe me post a few critiques of evolutionary theory (provided you know the subject well enough) and see how quickly you become the troll.  Certain subjects, even here, or maybe especially here, are taboo. Their mere whisper will bring you immediate villification."

And there is the diversion.

You didn't even try to prove me wrong Robert. 

 - Jason


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Post 47

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 2:01amSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure about the "specified" portion of the argument. 

Ah!  The congenital artist!  So far, you're the only one here exercising her intellect!  Thank you!  I'll interpret your lack of certainty regarding "specificity" as a question.

The term "specified" is one of the keys to understanding what the darwinism/anti-darwinism debate is all about.  Although it merely qualifies the noun "complexity" -- as in the phrase "specified complexity" -- in a sense it's actually the more important concept.

Here are some examples:

1. Suppose we have an amateur archer whom we blindflold.  We spin him around so that he's dizzy, and require him to shoot off some arrows toward the proverbial "broad side of a barn."  We're not at all surprised when his arrows strike the barn in a random pattern.  Now, suppose we walk over to each of the arrows stuck in the wood, and we draw a target around it, with the bulls-eye in the center of each arrowhead.  Absurd?  Sure!  But the question is this:  Can we draw any conclusions about the skill of the archer?  No.  Of course not.  He may be good; he may not be good; we don't know.  But that fact that we drew targets -- goals -- around the randomly distributed arrows AFTER the arrows were shot in no way permits us to say that "he hit the bulls-eye!"  Right?  Of course right.

Conversely:

Suppose we have a gifted professional archer (if such there be) who is required to hit one pre-selected target -- i.e., a specified target -- at a distance of 100 meters.  Lo and behold!  She hits the target in the bulls-eye!  Not only that; she is able to repeat the impressive feat at will.  Twenty times in a row, she hits ONE SPECIFIED target, dead center.  Can we draw some conclusions?  Yes.  She's great.  Wouldn't it be absurd (not to mention just plain insulting) if we claimed that she hit a SPECIFIC target by chance?  Of course!

Simple, isn't it?  That's the essence of specificity.

It turns out that that this notion is extremely important to other concepts such as information; to be brief:  the more SPECIFIC a goal or target is, the more INFORMATION it takes to hit the target.  There is, indeed, a mathematical proof of this provided by the originator of the first quantitative theory of information, Claude Shannon, in a famous paper he published while working at Bell Labs in 1948 (you can even find the paper online, titled "A Mathematical Theory of Communication").  But there are good intuitive proofs of this as well.  Imagine sending a letter to your friend, John.  You write the letter, put it in the envelope, and address the envelope thus:  "To My Friend." Not very specific, says the post office.  Can you give us more specific information, m'am?  OK.  "To My Friend, John."  Yep.  We're getting warmer.  Humor us, lady.  Give us more specific information.  OK.  "To My Friend, John Smith."  etc. etc.  Finally, the clerk promises you a free book of Ayn Rand stamps if you give as much specific information as you can.  So you write "To My Friend, John Smith, 1234 Main Street, Cleveland, Ohio, 17654-3211."  Now THAT's specified information; and the less of it you have, the less of a target or goal the post office has to work with.  The more of it you have, the more specified your target or goal becomes.

Obvious to the point of triteness?  Sure (ain't information theory great?).  It turns out that the same intuitions (and much of the same math) can be applied to "targets" -- such as amino acids -- in a field like biochemistry.  Here's how:

When I say "protein" think "the biochemical analog to a word."  When I say "amino acid" (the building blocks of proteins) think "the biochemical analog to a letter."  It's an analogy, but it's a good one, and it's a very common one: amino acids form an alphabet -- this one has 20 letters in it, instead of our 26 -- which can be combined in various ways, just as letters can be combined in various ways.  Now, when I say "Earth's environment billions of years ago" think "A Scrabble board with the letters tossed onto it randomly from the box."  Never mind how the letters -- the amino acids -- came into existence in the first place.  It doesn't matter for this example.  (FYI, two guys in 1952, Stanley Miller and Harold Urey, synthesized amino acids by zapping puddles of organic chemicals with electricity.  Unfortunately, it was later shown that the sort of chemical environment they had used to create their amino acids never existed on the early earth.  The experiment was interesting but proved nothing about how in fact the basic building blocks of proteins came into existence.)  So consider our Scrabble board, and ask yourself the following:  is there any physical restriction on how one square piece of wood can fit next to another square piece of wood?  Of course not.  You are permitted physically to put one Scrabble piece next to any other Scrabble piece.  Similarly, there is no chemical restriction on the order (or number) of amino acids in forming chains that we call "proteins."  The only question is this:  (for Scrabble) does the sequence of letters form a meaningful word in English?  (For amino acids) does the sequence of amino acids form a meaningful, i.e., functional protein?  So far, so good?

Now consider this:  most functional proteins (proteins that actually DO something) -- even very simple ones -- are at least 100 amino acids long.  Going back to Scrabble, that means that we require a word -- let's say a complete, meaningful sentence -- that is composed of at least 100 letters.  Easy to create?  Sure -- if there's an actual mind doing the composing.  You just writing, then do a "Word Count" with MS Word, and trim off what's too long, always being careful of things like grammar and punctuation, and always being sure that the entire chain -- the sentence -- makes sense.  But what if a Darwinist asserts "Oh, you're not allowed to compose the sentence; you have to create it randomly, by jiggling the Scrabble pieces in a bag and pulling out one letter at a time until a meaningful sentence is achieved.  "That's absurd!" you cry.  "That would take forever, assuming it could be done at all!"  The Darwinist -- probably a knee-jerk True Believer like Richard Dawkins -- would answer "Not so.  There are 26 letters (and a space, let us suppose to distinguish individual words), so the chances of pulling out any particular piece is 1/27.  The odds of pulling out any specific combination of 100 letters is 1/27^100.  We've got all the time in the world, so start shakin'!"

The only problem is, you don't have "all the time in the world."  The number 27^100 to produce a specified sentence -- let alone one that is meaningful in English -- is so astrononomically large, that by putting a "1" over it, it may as well be ZERO.  One mathematician, William Dembski, from considerations of physics, has set 1/10^150 as a "universal probability bound"; i.e., any event that had less chance of occurring than one-in-10^150 cannot have happened by chance.  That's an extremely conservative "upper limit" he's established.  Another mathematician, Emil Borel, set 1/10^50 as a bound.

Now, if this is true for a specified target of 100 letters (the specified target here is merely "any meaningful English sentence of 100 letters), imagine what the odds would be if we were required, using chance alone, to form a meaningful sentence of 300 characters!  (It would be 1/27^300)  That's the situation Darwinists face when they require random processes like "mutation" and "natural selection" to create a specific protein (such as, e.g., just ONE of the proteins used in the bacterial flagellum).  They claim that "time is on their side" but it isn't.  There have only been about 10^25 seconds of elapsed time since the (purported) Big Bang; even if there were pre-existing amino acids everywhere in the universe (not just on earth), and even if they formed rich puddles, or even rich oceans, there still would not be enough time (a/k/a "probabilistic resources") to have created that one protein, let alone all of the other proteins that compose living beings.

To say otherwise -- as does someone like Richard Dawkins -- would be similar to saying that if we had enough monkeys banging away randomly on PCs with MS Word for enough time, they would manage, after many trials, to come up with just the right combination of letters, spaces, punctuation, chapter numbers, and sequence divisions, to have composed "Atlas Shrugged."  Furthermore, since we can now "explain" the appearance of this meaningful string of letters (totaling almost 1,100 pages) by appeals to strictly natural, random, non-telelogical causes, we may dispense with such mystical, pseudo-religious explanations as an imputed "author" named Ayn Rand, who "composed" the novel with a certain "goal" or "intention" in mind.
 
So now do you have at least some idea of what "specified" means?

_________________________________________________
Rather, I've always thought that it was a "resistant" type of variant that emerged, not a specified one to the environment, as can be seen by existing forms of  infectious germs which evolve to be resistant to treatment within a decade or so. Medical science is now worried about "super strains" of HIV infections, as a current example. 

Now that you have some basic nomenclature, I can try to answer this one more briefly!

It's an excellent point.  It turns out, however, that the common fact of bacterial resistance to antibiotics (and of insects to insecticides) is not a model for how evolution could have occurred.  Why?  The reasons for bacterial resistance are well understood:  the bacterium loses genetic information in one of its structures (the ribosome) preventing the antibiotic from chemically binding to it.  To be exact:  the bacterium doesn't so much "learn to resist" the drug; it loses sensitivity to it.  It's not the same thing.  What happens is that one of several possible DNA mutations occur which destroy the binding site that the antibiotic needs to attach to the bacterium.  In essence, the bacterium destroys a little piece of itself in order to survive.  Since the destruction -- in this case, loss of genetic information -- is in the gene, the loss of sensitivity is heritable, and a whole strain of resistant bacteria can arise.

An analogy:  when I say "criminals" think "bacteria"; when I say "the law" think "antibiotics."

Criminals are on the run from the law, but the latter is in hot pursuit: the bad guys have left a trail of highly specified information that the cops can use to grab them and bring 'em to justice.  The cops know their names, the apartment building address, the apartment number, the street address, the city, the state, and even the darn zip code.  What can the bad guys do to protect themselves from the cops?  They can stay where they are and let the cops swoop in, and then try to "evolve" some clever plan of counter-attack and escape; or they can try to erase some of the specificity of the information that makes them sensitive to an attack in the first place.  It turns out that on the top 3 floors of the apartment building they're in, the landlord has just put in 500 new rooms (so the rooms are a little small; so what), but hasn't had time to put the apartment numbers on the doors yet.  Hiding out in one of these "anonymous" rooms is the equivalent of erasing some of the specificity of the information defining the whereabouts of the criminals.  Their "address" (so to speak) would be "Sid and Billy Hatfield / 1234 / Oak Street / Cleveland /  Ohio / 12345-6789 /  floor unknown / apartment unknown.
 
It may not take a very smart cop long to search the "anonymous" rooms, but what if the cop is a robot, programmed ONLY to search (i.e., "bind with") a pre-selected room; a specified room?  In that case, the bad guys survive; not because they "evolved" a highly sophisticated strategy for dealing with the cops; but rather by withholding from the cops some necessary specified information.

That's essentially how a bacterium outwits an antibiotic.  A DNA mutation destroys some specified information about the "address" of a receptor site on its ribosome, and the antibiotic can no longer "find" it (i.e., "bind with it").

The reason this is NOT a good model of macroevolution is because the latter requires an increase in genetic information -- an increase in specificity -- not a decrease.  So while bacterial/insect resistance to poisons certainly shows that mutations leading to loss of genetic information can sometimes confer survival benefits on this or that species, it in no way shows that random mutation + blindly operating (non-goal directed) natural selection can increase genetic information and "evolve" more complex biological entities from less complex ones.


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Post 48

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 4:53amSanction this postReply
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Grammarian --

Let me explain to you the Objectivist position that most of the people here take for granted.
 

Um, Jason.  May I speak openly?  Thanks.

Uhhhhh, you were born in 1979.  By 1979, not only had I graduated high school, I had taken 2 courses at the NY Stadtler Hilton (across from Penn Station) on Objectivism with the Big Cheese himself, Leonard Peikoff; I had taken a course in economics with George Reisman (at the same hotel); heard Miss Rand speak twice at Ford Hall Forum; chatted with Allen Blumenthal (no, I wasn't being analyzed), chatted with his wife, Joan (the painter).  I flirted openly and quite shamelessly with Cynthia, Peikoff's second-wife-to-be.  I can tell you the color of Robert Stubblefields socks on the day that a group of "students of objectivism" first discussed starting ARS at his house in NJ.  I can tell you what his wife, Jeannie, made for a snack that afternoon.  I can tell you which wall on what side of his fancy New York apartment Harry Binzwanger hung an original oil painting by Capuletti (which he later sold.  "I don't like the curve of the girl's waist" he said.  Yes, a great philosopher.).  I can tell you the color of the towels in Robert Hessen's new upstairs bathroom in his house in Palo Alto.  I can tell you about the time Peikoff was taking a sculpture class taught by a well known objectivist sculptor in NY.  He had made a small statue of a young girl.  "I want the tits to be perkier" he said.  "How do I do that?"  Yes, a great mind.

So, look.  Don't pretend to teach me anything about the "Objectivist position" on this, that, or the other thing, OK?  In fact, go back to sleep; you've missed half the discussion.

While I am sure that some of the scientists you have listed have developed some arguments of merit against aspects of Darwinism

Obviously, you've never read ID or Darwin.  Darwin attempted to explain the origin of species by reference to (1) random variation, and (2) natural selection.  Those aren't just aspects of his theory; they ARE his theory.  Knock those supports out from under him and there is NO theory left.  In the 1940s, at a meeting of the American Geological Society, a bunch of big-wigs in biology -- Richard Lewontin, Ernst Mayer, G.G. Harding, etc. -- got together, like "backroom boys" and said "Look.  Our theory is in trouble.  The fossil record stinks as far as evidence goes -- most of the record shows stasis, with bursts of sudden appearances of new body-plans [phyla] from nowhere.  How can we save the theory, lest dreaded Creationism seep back into Science?"  The result was something insiders now call "Neo-Darwinism" a/k/a the "Synthetic Theory" because it's a synthesis of various elements: (a) traditional Darwinist concepts such as variation, natural selection, gradualism, and uniformitarianism (a concept of the never-changingness of physical law that Darwin took over from his friend Lyell, the geologist); (b) Mendelian genetics; (c) population genetics, which studies "gene frequencies" in whole populations, treating them statistically.  The math was mainly worked out by a Brit named Ronald Fisher.  When DNA was discovered in the late 1950s, the Neo-Darwinians were aglow: copying errors in DNA -- called "point mutations" -- could now be claimed to be THE source of Darwin's somewhat fuzzy idea of "variation."  Alas, the other strut of traditional Darwinism, "natural selection," could never be traced to anything concrete; indeed, there are some Darwinists today who question whether there really IS such a thing as "natural selection," for they think -- rightly -- that it is nothing other than that ol'fashioned teleology that religion makes use of in its notion of a Creator, but this time acting "immanently" through nature itself.  the NDs' viewpoint is essentiall this:  the variation among species is caused by DNA point mutations; the stasis is caused by natural selection.  Richard Dawkins likens the latter to a ratchet, which "catches" species after a favorable mutation has occurred and allows them to flourish.  It's an unfortunate metaphor on his part, as a ratchet is a designed thing with a teleological purpose.

I'm just giving a thumbnail sketch of the current paradigm.  Natural selection acting on random variation is THE heart of neo-Darwinism; if ID -- or any other theory -- throws that into doubt, then there is simply nothing left of the theory.

and perhaps deserve attention the ultimate goal of proving that the universe has actually been "intelligently designed"

I never said anything about the universe being the product of intelligence (though some physicists today DO believe that).  The thread is strictly about biological organisms.  The latter, on the biochemical level, display nanotechnology.  Little molecular machines.  No, not things that are like machines; thing that ARE machines.  The bacterial flagellum is not like a miniature outboard motor (with a rotor and a stator) it IS an outboard motor (just look at photographs of one taken with scanning electron microscopes), and it functions exactly like a macroscopic man-made one.  What we know about machines, of whatever size, is that they don't invent themselves; they don't come about by chance.

will remain entirely a matter of faith until some kind of valid evidence exists of an actual designer.   Objectivists do not accept any knowledge that is not rooted within a specifc set of epistemological guidelines and this is an area in which most academic scientists will agree with us. 

Of course.  And there many different kinds of scientists.  Crytographers, for example, and those involved in various fields of forensics routinely must assume intelligence and goal-directedness in their work.  More importantly, they must establish methods of distinguishing something that is the product of intelligence and purpose from something that is either (1) necessitated, or (2) accidental.  Teleology is not unknown to "science" per se.

 The logical error present in this case is the claim  that because the universe is structured in such and such a way it necessarily follows that there MUST have been some intelligent being or entity that has designed it.   This is a textbook  example of "begging the question" because no valid knowledge has been presented  to argue for the actual presence of a designer.

Excuse me, but that argument is a non-argument, and completely bogus.  We needn't know a thing about the identity of the designer or the goals and purposes of the designer, in order to infer that something was designed.  Archeologists come across this sort of thing all the time.  Is this stone sharp by accident? or was it made sharp by someone long ago?

As far as ID goes, there are three broad categories of belief about a designer: (1) those who believe in a Supreme Being not physically part of the universe; (2) those who (like Sir Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA) claim that super-intelligent extraterrestrials came to earth, invented life (for reasons all their own) and disappeared into the sunset; (3) those who, like Fred Hoyle, believe that certain qualities we normally only associate with the mind, such as "purposefulness," "goal-directedness," "intelligence," etc., are attributes of physical matter; and (4) those who, like Hubert Yockey and Michael Denton, believe that, teleology or no teleology, life is a part of the "fabric" of the universe, as much as non-living matter, and was, in a matter of speaking, "pre-ordained" from the moment of the Big Bang to come into existence, not by accident, but necessarily (in the same that protons and electrons "had to" come into existence after the Big Bang in precisely the way they did).

None of these is very satisfactory, but it doesn't have to be.  The identity of an imputed "designer" is irrelevent to determining whether or not something was designed.

   Further, it is even more silly to make the leap of faith and claim that because of this so called "scientific evidence" the followers of specific religous faiths along with all of their mythologies and dogmas have been scientifically vindicated.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  No one has said anything about "vindicating" followers of specific religious faiths.  ID may or may not be congenial to Biblical literalists.  One Creationist, Henry Morris, is an outspoken critic of ID.  ID has no necessary connection to Biblical literalism, just as Darwinism has no necessary connection to Marxism (though almost all Marxists have been Darwinists, and many Darwinists have been Marxists).  Biblical literalism is an attempt to reconcile physical evidence (the age of the earth, the fossil record such as it is, etc.) with an a priori belief in the literal truth of a pre-existing text.  That's a completely different situation from looking at the physical evidence -- a molecular-sized outboard motor, for example --  and trying to decide if it could be the product of chance or not.

  This compounds logical error with logical error and is the ultimate assertion of arbitrary nonsense coupled with a sneaky attempt to claim that it is all backed by science (which is exactly what those actually pushing "ID" politically and in the press are ultimately attempting to accomplish). 

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.  Who, precisely is "pushing" ID?  What does "pushing" mean?  You mean showing students the gaping holes in neo-Darwinism?  Except for actual technical articles, most of what I read about ID in the press -- even on conservative blogs like "RealClearPolitics.com" -- is completely hostile to it. 

 This is the type of intellectual trickery that you will find Objectivists being critical of and I can understand why some of the people here are blowing up when they see what seems to be yet another person advocating this kind of intellectual dishonesty.  Arguements against elements of Darwinism are absolutely acceptable if they are based upon valid evidence.

Yet these same Objectivists, these same Protectors of the Halls of Science, drop their critical stance when any seemingly pro-Darwinian statement is made.  They seem quite willing to accept Neo-Darwinist theories in the absence of valid evidence, no doubt because Darwinists assure tthem that the relevent evidence will be "forthcoming" or can be "found in the Jounal of Theoretical Biology."  Sure enough, the evidence never does come forth, and when we investigate the cited peer-reviewed journal, no evidence is found.

To her credit, Miss Rand claimed at a Ford Hall Forum lecture I attended that she had no opinion about Darwinism, as she was "not a student of his theories."  It was sort of claiming Socratic Ignorance, and though I didn't appreciate the answer then, I sure appreciate her intellectual honesty now.

(another thing that is not particularly liked on SOLO is the use of nicknames in the place of real names so you may want to consider changing over to your actual name.)
 
Don't be such a hypocrite.  First of all, I have no idea if "Jason Quintana" is your real name or just an assumed one.  I have nothing but your assertion, and no reason to accept it.  Second of all, in filling out the profile for this site, the field said "In this field, put your real name; e.g., 'Ayn Rand.'"   Not only is "Ayn Rand" not my real name, but "Ayn Rand" wasn't even Ayn Rand's real name: it was Alyssa Rosenbaum (if I remember correctly).  So if Miss Rosenbaum can adopt a nom de plume and call herself Ayn Rand, then I can adopt a nom de plume and call myself "The Grammarian."

Nickname, indeed!!!


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Post 49

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
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Anyone who wants a throughgoing refutation of Intelligent Design should consult Richard Dawkins'  The Blind Watchmaker or his Scientific American article "God's Utility Function".

Dawkins has already been roundly trounced by David Berlinski in a number of articles appearing in "Commentary" magazine.  Even many hardcore Darwinists don't want anything to do with Dawkins any more.

In the latter, Dawkins describes a certain kind of insect that lays its eggs inside a living host and the larvae eat it from the inside out. He rhetorically asks what kind of God would design such a thing.

My rhetorical answer:  the same sort of God that humors us by designing a ridiculous being such as a James Heaps-Nelson or (even more sardonically) an Adam Reed.

In other words, either it is a God with an unbelievably grand sense of humor, or a God that just doesn't know how to tell a joke.


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Post 50

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:54amSanction this postReply
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Grammarian,

Amen.

And thank you for doing the heavy lifting of illustrating the lack of objectivity some have displayed in evaluating conflicting theories of evolution.  It never ceases to amaze me how some Objectivists let their thinking be shaped in reaction to theists.  Your point about Miss Rand's intellectual honesty regarding evolution should be a lesson to us all.  Admitting to what you do not know is the sort of discipline that stops a person from letting faith creep into his thinking.

Andy


Post 51

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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I'm not omniscient, but I had such a high confidence as to what you will do that I could plainly tell you. Now, why don't you show I'm wrong by doing something other then what I said you would do? Do not make references to unexplained portions of evolution. Do shed the slightest evidence of an intelligent being (other than a human) at work creating beings, DNA, RNA, or anything.


First, do try to be somewhat precise with your words.  You ask me not to make references to unexplained portions of evolution.  I've been speaking of Darwinism, which is a specific hypothesis as to the origin of species.

Second, do take into account a little intellectual history.  There was no particularly compelling evidence for the heliocentric theory when Copernicus asserted it.  He claimed it was true because his philosophical master -- Plato -- claimed that the "Good" was like a central fire around which all things revolved.  Copernicus -- taking rather literally the words of Plato from his neat little dialogue on astronomy and physics titled "Timaeus," -- claimed that therefore, the sun must be the center of our solar system.  (The account is explained in more detail by Karl Popper).  In fact, to claim that the sun is the center of the solar system and not the earth goes rather against immediate observation and the sort of evidence that was available to Copernicus at the time.  He held the theory on the basis that it made a more elegant and (according to his philosophical lights) a simpler model of the universe than the geocentric one.

However, in the case of ID, there is certainly plenty of evidence.  The main one is this:

Under no circumstance does information ever increase of its own accord, or by some random, undirected process.  Information is governed by laws that closely resemble those of thermodynamics; there is such a thing, e.g, as information entropy.  Random variation and unintelligent natural selection are fairly good at explaining how systems that already have information maintain the status quo and survive, passing on the already existing information to the next generation.  But -- unless you really are omniscient, or have done highly original and unpublished research -- the only other cause in the universe with which humans have experience that can create information ex nihilo as well as increase the amount of information in a system, despite information's tendency to deteriorate over time is intelligence.  In fact, "information" is one of the marks of intelligence; one of the "fossils" left over by mind.  The fact that we find reams of digital code in the DNA molecule, and goddamn nano-machines in the rest of the cell, is pretty convincing evidence that intelligence was involved in the creation of these things.  Whether the intelligence should be spelled with a capital "I" or a lower-case one; whether it's the mark of an Intelligence "above and beyond" nature, or whether it's from some other perfectly natural being with greatly advanced technology; or whether, in pan-psychic fashion we simply want to attribute a trait of consciousness to physical matter -- all of these things are irrelevant, as far as this issue goes.

You're certainly welcome to name any other cause or force that you believe in principle can create and increase information, but there are really only three:

1.  There's chance (randomness, or accident).
2.  There's necessity (deterministic law).
3. There's design (intelligent purpose, goal-directedness).

That about covers it.  Information can be transmitted and maintained via deterministic law, but it cannot be generated by it, nor can it be increased by it.  Information will degrade in the presence of randomness (otherwise known as "noise").  So the creation of information, and its increase, are either the product of intelligence, or the product of some mysterious "4th way" that, I'm sure, you'll let us know about . . .

Someone posted earlier about complexity, and how ID was simply saying that "there has to be a designer, because biological things are just too complex to have any other explanation."  I can't find the post, so I'd like to comment on that here (as it's relevant to your question above).

There are different sorts of complexity and there are different ways of characterizing them, both informally and formally (meaning, mathematically).  It is to Michael Behe's credit that he identified a certain kind of complexity that stubbornly resists being explained by any sort of reductionist methodology.  He dubbed this "Irreducible Complexity."  His conceptual example (before proceeding to the biological ones) was not complex at all:  it's simply a mousetrap.  It has very few parts, but each part is (1)highly specified (it does a specific sort of thing that no other component of the system can do) (2) necessary to the system as a whole, or the system ceases to function as a system.  If the base is missing, there's nothing for the spring, the catch, and the hammer to attach to.  If the hammer is missing, there's nothing to trap the poor critter; if the spring is missing, there's nothing to hold the catch with enough potential energy to snap the hammer shut quickly.  A system like this -- as few parts as it has -- could not conceptually evolved in a gradualist, step-by-step manner required by Darwinian theory (in which small, randomly generated changes are "selected" because of the advantage they presumably give the organism).  With a mousetrap, it's all or nothing:  either the whole trap is in existence and functions intregrally, or the separate parts are simply useless.  Clever Darwinists will say, "wait.  The component parts could have been used in different functions at different times and then come together when the time was right to create the trap.  The base, for example, could have been used as a door-stop; the spring could have been used as a tie-clasp, etc.  All right, but only an intelligence with goals can see the possibilities inherent in putting together totally disparate things such as a door-stop and tie-clasp, adding to it a hammer, in order to invent a mouse-trap.

According to Behe (and a growing number of biochems) many biological systems (though not all) display this trait of irreducible complexity:  you remove just one component, and the whole thing, not only ceases to function, but the remaining parts have NO other function EXCEPT to work with the piece you took away.  It's all or nothing.  Behe's examples are: (1) the chemical cascade responsible for vision; (2) the chemical cascade responsible for blood-clotting; (3) the cycle responsible for creating and maintaining the immune system.  Behe claims (convincingly) that these all-or-nothing systems could not have come into existence by a gradualist, step-by-step approach, in which one or two of the cascade elements appeared first, and then steps 3 and 4, and so on, because steps 1 and 2 (or 3 and 4), by themselves, are useless for anything, and confer NO survival advantage to an organism (as required in step-by-step evolution a la Darwin).  Again, clever Darwinists claim that step 1 of the cascade (the mousetrap base) could have been used in some other chemical function (i.e., as a doorstop), and step 2 could have been used in another function (i.e., as a tie-clasp), but that ignores the real question:  how did the chemical equivalents of a door-stop and tie-clasp "decide" to come together to produce something novel; a mousetrap (i.e., a clotting cascade).  We can see how it can be done -- done easily, at least in principle -- in the presence of intelligence: that's what entrepreneurs do, right?  They take someone else's "step 1" and another person's "step 2" and put them together in a way that no one else had seen before, and exploit them for a purpose that no one else recognized at the time.  But how could this have been done by Darwinian forces (by random mutations and selection acting as a "ratchet" to retain the favorable variations)?  Behe, like others, were promised that such chemical evolutionary pathways existed (Darwinian, gradualist pathways) and were "being researched just at this very moment" or "had already appeared in the Journal of Theoretical Biology."  Guess what?  The chemical pathways are never demonstrated in the research, and the peer-reviewed papers promise that such pathways exist, but that "they are being researched right now."  In other words, there was nothing but hand-waving arguments.

No, whether it's technology, or a piece of music, or piece of literature, certain systems -- even systems with relatively few parts -- display a sort of complexity that cannot be broken down and "explained" as having come into existence in a gradualist, linear, fashion.  If we try chance (see my previous post), we get a combinatorial explosion:  the numbers become disgustingly astronomical.  Obviously, something other than (1) chance or (2) necessity is operating in such systems.  If you can think of anything other than (3) intelligence, that can, even in principle, explain how disparate elements such as a door-stop and a tie-clasp can integrate to function as a brand new useful entity, be my guest.

This is obviously NOT a so-called "argument from ignorance."  It's precisely because humans are already well acquainted with design from their own lives and work that it is a valid scientific procedure to infer the existence of design from biological systems.  This also, as you can see, has zero to do with Biblical literalism.  This has nothing to do with trying to reconcile things in the physical world with a literal reading of a pre-existing text.


Post 52

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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Grammarian,

Amen.

And thank you for doing the heavy lifting of illustrating the lack of objectivity some have displayed in evaluating conflicting theories of evolution.  It never ceases to amaze me how some Objectivists let their thinking be shaped in reaction to theists.  Your point about Miss Rand's intellectual honesty regarding evolution should be a lesson to us all.  Admitting to what you do not know is the sort of discipline that stops a person from letting faith creep into his thinking.
Andy



;)


Post 53

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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Grammarian (I personally don't care what name you use, anonymity isn't a problem on this end):

What an enormously entertaining writer you are! I must thank you for that first.

"As far as ID goes, there are three broad categories of belief about a designer: (1) those who believe in a Supreme Being not physically part of the universe; (2) those who (like Sir Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA) claim that super-intelligent extraterrestrials came to earth, invented life (for reasons all their own) and disappeared into the sunset; (3) those who, like Fred Hoyle, believe that certain qualities we normally only associate with the mind, such as "purposefulness," "goal-directedness," "intelligence," etc., are attributes of physical matter; and (4) those who, like Hubert Yockey and Michael Denton, believe that, teleology or no teleology, life is a part of the "fabric" of the universe, as much as non-living matter, and was, in a matter of speaking, "pre-ordained" from the moment of the Big Bang to come into existence, not by accident, but necessarily (in the same that protons and electrons "had to" come into existence after the Big Bang in precisely the way they did)."

I first heard of "intelligent design" theory's around 20 years ago by, of all people, a stringent atheist and self described Objectivist. He had severe leanings toward the "determinist" camp you describe. Unfortunately, shock completely took over and I lost all interest in learning any more about it.

When I think of "intelligence," I think of a holder of that intelligence, something identifiable, something with a nature that can be explored and understood. So perhaps the title given by it's researchers puts it at disadvantage from the start.

 Gradual change, adapting to environmental influences, seemed the most graspable, "that makes sense" theory, and it still does. However, I'm now open to hearing new the ideas, even those spoiled by Christian support because I'm not convinced they have anything whatever to do with religion or even mysticism. Not yet, anyway.

Thanks again, for the vivid examples and "dumbed down" illustrations. I truely appreciate the time and effort you put into it. I have a much better understanding of this than I did before.  

Teresa


Post 54

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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Grammarian, or whatever,

Your first paragraph in post 48 is largely an Argumentum ad Experientiam: http://solohq.com/Articles/Stolyarov/Argumentum_ad_Experientiam.shtml (I never thought I be pointing someone to one of GSII's articles, but this one is good.

then you have this:

The bacterial flagellum is not like a miniature outboard motor (with a rotor and a stator) it IS an outboard motor (just look at photographs of one taken with scanning electron microscopes), and it functions exactly like a macroscopic man-made one.  What we know about machines, of whatever size, is that they don't invent themselves; they don't come about by chance.

You are trying to make so fallacious an argument here that I'm not going to respond other than to laugh my ass off.

HUMOR: You see, this stick doesn't just look like a walking stick, it is a walking stick. We know that walking sticks don't create themselves! Gimpy guys invented them, so obviously trees where created by design.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 8/16, 7:54am)


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Post 55

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Good boy, Jason, your labor payed off.  You finally got your ad hominem.  I shouldn't have called you mindless; a better word would have been quarrelsome or pugnacious, but you are still a twit.

As to the rest,  it is not a distraction.  It is a challenge and if you've got a pair you'll take me up on it.


Post 56

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Not that you will ever change an opinion, but Argumentum ad Experientiam is what every poster here is doing when they defend without qualification the "theory of evolution".  The argument goes scientists who study these things know what they are talking about, so shut up.


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Post 57

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Your comments are neither here nor there to my comments to grammarian. My point is that, his paragraph was basically an "I'm older than you and have met a lot of these people whose stuff you've read, therefore I know better than you"  word fest. It served as no refutation of what Jason was trying to say. If someone's post implies an ignorance of things, you can expect someone here to correct them.

Talking about potential holes or innacuracies in the current scientific theory of evolution, and/or the tendacies of some posters to accept it without question in no way verifies or implies any validity to the non-scientific theory of Intelligent Design. That type of fallacious argumentation and poor reasoning only leads to confusion of the issue.

Ethan


Post 58

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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What an enormously entertaining writer you are! I must thank you for that first.

Ms. Isanhart, you're very kind.  I appreciate your telling me that!

I first heard of "intelligent design" theory's around 20 years ago by, of all people, a stringent atheist and self described Objectivist. He had severe leanings toward the "determinist" camp you describe. Unfortunately, shock completely took over and I lost all interest in learning any more about it.

When I think of "intelligence," I think of a holder of that intelligence, something identifiable, something with a nature that can be explored and understood. So perhaps the title given by it's researchers puts it at disadvantage from the start.

You could be right about that last point.  Conversely, had it been called simply "Design Theory," or something like that, most critics would accuse its proponents of trying to "steal concepts" -- trying to advocate a "design" with no "designer."  That might be one of the reasons that Dembski, et al., started a website devoted to monitored discussions of any technical aspects of complexity, information, and design (www.iscid.org) with no explicit mention of intelligence.

I first heard about ID in a very roundabout way.  I was interested in traditional English grammar and the reasons that it was no longer being taught (and is no longer being taught).  That interest led me to the intellectual place that grammar held for many centuries in antiquity and the middle ages: it was the first building block in a 7-fold way of pedagogy called "The Seven Liberal Arts."  These 7 disciplines were subdivided into a 3-fold study called the "Trivium" (meaning "3 roads") and a "Quadrivium" ("4 roads").  The trivium (from which we get our modern word "trivia," by the way) comprised grammar, logic, and rhetoric; or "correct expression," "correct reasoning," "persuasion."  The middle ages even had an iconography to represent the last two:  a hand closed tightly into a fist -- the force of logical conclusions syllogistically derived from premises -- represented logic; a hand extended open -- the friendly gesture of persuasive greeting -- represented rhetoric.  Rhetoric was the Queen of the Sciences of Discourse, and was viewed as a potentially dangerous tool (more dangerous than logic alone; for with rhetoric -- as Aristotle pointed out in his great treatise on the subject -- you seek to "size up" your opponent psychologically and influence his feelings about an issue, not just his rational judgment).  It turns out that much of what antiquity had to teach about rhetoric was simply lost to the modern world -- available in certain old books, but no longer being taught . . . in fact, there were no longer any teachers capable of teaching it!  I came across an interesting little book by an obscure English professor titled "Stylists on Style" which contained in the introductory essay a discussion on -- of all things! -- Claude Shannon's information theory!  And how the latter, at least in its broad concepts, could be used to promote and in a sense, "justify," the brilliant insights of the ancient Greek and Roman rhetoricians (Demosthenes, Cicero, Quintilian).  I also remembered that an old acquaintance of mine, electrical engineer and author Petr Beckmann, used to write frequently about this important branch of applied mathematics, and how useful it was in helping to explain the organization of systems other than those used in telecommunications.

So, when I finally read David Berlinski's piece in Commentary magazine (linked in my first post, and titled "The Deniable Darwin" from 1996), and when he waxed enthusiastic about information theory's having certain problems with the reductive approach taken for granted in neo-Darwinism, I was intrigued.  It was mainly through following the writings of Berlinski in Commentary that I became interested in ID, as well as in the more general history of how and why Darwinism came to monopolize the intellectual landscape from the mid-19th to the present.

Gradual change, adapting to environmental influences, seemed the most graspable, "that makes sense" theory, and it still does. However, I'm now open to hearing new the ideas, even those spoiled by Christian support because I'm not convinced they have anything whatever to do with religion or even mysticism. Not yet, anyway.

The fact that gradualism, genetic mutation, and "natural selection" (whatever we might mean by the latter, as it turns out to be a very slippery term) cannot explain the big picture -- the origin of life, the origin of species, and the connection (if any) among different species -- doesn't mean that it isn't useful in explaining aspects of the little picture -- how many different varieties within an already existing species can be bred from an original stock.  Darwin believed that "Mother Nature" was a sort of "super-breeder" and that species were, in principle, infinitely malleable.  Thus a grizzly bear would wade cautiously into the water to catch fish; after millions of years, nature would breed such bears into whales! -- yep, he really wrote that in the 1st edition of "Origin of Species."  Professional breeders in Darwin's day, like today, know that species are NOT infinitely malleable: you can select for a particular trait or set of traits only so many times, and then the new generation either (1) snaps back mysteriously to the original stock you began with, or (2) goes sterile, which is quite obviously a biological dead-end.

Anyway, you ARE open-minded (in the positive sense of the phrase) and you ARE a true Objectivist, displaying the best of what I understand that philosophy to be!  Thanks for your post!


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Post 59

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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Grammerian --  First of all I tip my hat to you for a writing long post and at least attempting to argue your case.  I'm not sure what you were trying to prove to me by telling me that you know the color of Robert Hessen's bathroom, but I'll skip over that and get to the important elements of your response.

 

"Excuse me, but that argument is a non-argument, and completely bogus.  We needn't know a thing about the identity of the designer or the goals and purposes of the designer, in order to infer that something was designed.  Archeologists come across this sort of thing all the time.  Is this stone sharp by accident? or was it made sharp by someone long ago?"

 

This is the most important part of your overall argument.  There is an immensely important difference between the inference an archeologist makes when he finds an arrowhead or some likely human designed object and "ID theorists" inferring that the universe has been "designed" because of discoveries about its structure.   We have physical evidence that humans exist, and probably physical evidence that humans existed in the location where the likely designed objects in question have been located.  So it is in fact reasonable to infer that a human being was the designer.   We have lots of perceptual evidence that humans modify natural objects for their own purposes and we can compare these objects to those that naturally occur in nature and make a good inference.

 

To add to that  -- how is it that humans are able to infer that a relic they find was indeed "man made" and not something that occurred on its own via "nature"?   The reason is that nature provides us with the comparison.  We are able to infer human design only because we know that the modifications that took place on a particular object do not occur naturally.  It is only through this comparison that we can identify that some object has been designed by an intelligent being.  To infer that the WHOLE OF EXISTENCE is the product of an intelligent designer is a claim to knowledge that would require an entirely different set of guidelines and first and foremost it would require that we establish evidence of an intelligent designer capable of such a feat.  Otherwise what do we have to compare the whole of reality to in order to make some special inference about its characteristics and their possible design?  No, you can't escape from the necessity in this context of first finding proof of the actual designer.  You can refute Darwinism, but that doesn't get you any closer to being able to call your hypothesis "Intelligent Design Theory".   If you want to call these scientific theories "Intelligent Design" this is the evidence you must have.  It doesn't matter how much other evidence you have or how many books you have read on the subject.

 

"As far as ID goes, there are three broad categories of belief about a designer: (1) those who believe in a Supreme Being not physically part of the universe; (2) those who (like Sir Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA) claim that super-intelligent extraterrestrials came to earth, invented life (for reasons all their own) and disappeared into the sunset; (3) those who, like Fred Hoyle, believe that certain qualities we normally only associate with the mind, such as "purposefulness," "goal-directedness," "intelligence," etc., are attributes of physical matter; and (4) those who, like Hubert Yockey and Michael Denton, believe that, teleology or no teleology, life is a part of the "fabric" of the universe, as much as non-living matter, and was, in a matter of speaking, "pre-ordained" from the moment of the Big Bang to come into existence, not by accident, but necessarily (in the same that protons and electrons "had to" come into existence after the Big Bang in precisely the way they did).

None of these is very satisfactory, but it doesn't have to be.  The identity of an imputed "designer" is irrelevent to determining whether or not something was designed."

 

This goes back to my previous argument.  What you are attempting to do is change the very definition about what we mean when we, as humans described something as being "designed".   You are attempting to do in a more elegant manner what most religionists do very crudely and generally.  You are attempting to infer that causal orderliness = design and ultimately that causal orderliness = conscious purposefulness on the part of a designer.   This leaves you in the same predicament that I described earlier.

 

"I have no idea what you're talking about.  No one has said anything about "vindicating" followers of specific religious faiths.  ID may or may not be congenial to Biblical literalists.  One Creationist, Henry Morris, is an outspoken critic of ID.  ID has no necessary connection to Biblical literalism, just as Darwinism has no necessary connection to Marxism (though almost all Marxists have been Darwinists, and many Darwinists have been Marxists).  Biblical literalism is an attempt to reconcile physical evidence (the age of the earth, the fossil record such as it is, etc.) with an a priori belief in the literal truth of a pre-existing text.  That's a completely different situation from looking at the physical evidence -- a molecular-sized outboard motor, for example --  and trying to decide if it could be the product of chance or not."

 

Those who promote ID education are those who wish for students to infer that their religon has scientific merit.  They wish to promote the idea that their faith has not been absolutely disproved by science.  Most of the major push and support for "Intelligent Design" education comes from religionists.   The muscle behind this really isn't your group of scientists though I would add that I think the scientists you describe and their theories that you described above are religionists of a sort.   By calling their theory "Intelligent Design" (whether the designers were supposidly gods, aliens or whatever) they are implying a belief (or faith) in something that has absolutely no evidence supporting it.  In any case, I thank you for at least laying your cards on the table and making an argument.  I look forward to your response.

 

 - Jason
 



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