RoR: Forum

And your point is what exactly Aaron?

Are you going to post some self-righteous smarmy comment with every new piece of information that comes out supporting your position? (There are still many unanswered questions in relation to the incident). You certainly won't be getting that from me if any new information turn out to support my initial reaction to the facts as they were presented at the time.

Post 21

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:42am

Aaron,

Given the current terrorist climate, what this guy did was basically suicide-by-cop.

Jim

Post 22

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 6:28am

You gloated that someone was shot dead, before even knowing anything about the facts of the case. I was far too timid and polite posting my doubts about whether he was related to the bombings, and got sidetracked about ethnic terminology. I hoped as anyone did that the police decision was right. But even if nine times out of ten they are, it doesn't warrant automatically assuming they always are, giving them carte blanche to plug someone, anyone, and celebrating when they do so. That's a frightening herd mentality, and the way to police state and tyranny.

Call me names if it makes you feel better. Just please don't cheer random people getting killed.

Post 23

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 7:28am

I think to bear in mind, is that in a civilised Western civilisation, there will be a full enquiry into whether or not the police behaved negligently. Contrast that with the values of the "death-worshipping" Islamofascists!

Of course, we don't know all the facts yet - but someone leaving a suspected terrorist hideout carrying a rucksack - running away from the police, jumping over the underground ticket barrier and then trying to board a train - definitely has a death wish.

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 7/24, 7:29am)

Post 24

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:08am

Matt, James, Marcus-

I agree it sounds like the Brazilian, despite not doing something illegal, was definitely doing something stupid.

Though I'm extremely concerned about the mentality of automatically assuming someone killed by police deserved it, I want to be clear that if police bear responsibility for their actions I have no issue with them and the invaluable service they are trying to perform. The best we can achieve in reality is law enforcement getting well-deserved recognition and reward for catching or killing real terrorists, but being liable as we would be if they do mistakenly kill innocents.

Thanks for all your comments.

Post 25

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:01am

Holy Crap!

I woke up this morning to the sound of - "WHOP...WHOP...WHOP" and saw that Lindsay Perigo was giving some Lolipop an attitude adjustment! And it was over something "I" posted! How cool is THAT?

Tommie,

I am sorry, but I had my "touchy-feely" organ removed on 9/11.

I think you should read Marcus's post 23 several times and very slowly. It contains some pertinent information. I would have much preferred if the young man had been captured and "interrogated." I can assure you that the British are excellent interrogators and would have found some more pertinent information from this young lad. And, I am pretty sure the young lad knew this. Hence, all that silly running and stuff. He died because he wanted to die.

And, thank you for being so concerned for the innocent! It could be you life's calling. Perhaps you could go to Iraq as a missionary or something and scold those who would cut off the heads of "innocents." I bet they will welcome you with open arms!

gw

Post 26

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:17am

Quoth Lindsay Perigo:

"And you'll dine out on this for ever, won't you, Tom"

Actually, no. In this particular case, I feel much more sorry for the police than I do for the guy who died. They were in a moral conundrum in which it was nearly impossible to get the correct answer -- because they did have reason to believe that he was associated with terrorists, because he was entering a tube station with a package, and because he didn't react properly when they attempted to intervene.

I was pointing out that they made a mistake, not that that mistake was inexcusable or a breach of morality.

"In your world view, the war against terrorism, in the course of which mistakes will be made, shouldn't be being waged at all ..."

I definitely think that the war on terrorism should be waged. Let me know when and if it starts.

The difference between you and me is that I don't blank out fact and reality in order to pretend that a set of opportunistic cons put over in the name of the war on terrorism actually is the war on terrorism.

Tom Knapp

Post 27

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:19am

Quoth gary williams:

"I am sorry, but I had my "touchy-feely" organ removed on 9/11."

Neat. So tell us -- what's post-cerebrectomy life like?

Tom Knapp

Post 28

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:56am

I forecast an increase in income for London Underground as the thousands who vault the barrier every week think better of it after this!

Londoners are just getting used to armed police but a Brazilian would expect them to be armed wouldn't they?

The fact that the police were in casual civvy clothing may have confused him.

The " policeman" who shot him may have been from another agency altogether.

Post 29

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:55am

Tommie,

Life is "Marvelous!!! I feel 10 pounds lighter!

(Me singing) "If I only had a brain.....!"

By the way, How's life with out any testicles?

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 7/24, 10:56am)

Post 30

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:04am

Lance just won #7.

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 4:14pm

Quoth "gary williams" --

"By the way, how's life without any testicles?"

Having spent the better part of my life usually being accused of having more balls than brains, I sometimes wish I knew.

I've been shot at enough times -- and liked it enough -- that I don't have any insecurity with respect to my own testicular fortitude. While you content yourself watching "anything with Lee Marvin," I took it upon myself to serve for ten years in the same Marine Corps battalion (3rd Battalion, 24th Marines) that he hit the beach on Saipan with in real life before he came back and made movies to feed your Walter Mitty complex.

Tom Knapp

Post 32

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:24pm

Tommie,

I have never known a single Marine who has been shot at and "liked it enough." And I have known several Marines. In fact I saw over 200 Marines killed in one day. It was 23 October 1983. You do remember that date don't you, you being the great Marine Corp historian and all? Here's a hint - It was the single bloodiest day in Marine Corp history since Iwo Jima. It was also caused by "Islamic Terrorists!"

Serving in the same unit as Lee Marvin is a whole lot different than actually being on Saipan the same time as that Marine did. You do his good name a dis-service as you do all Marines of that era.

Walter Mitty was fiction as I suppose most of your last post was. 3 October 1983 was real. I know, I was there. The bomb was real, the blood was real, the dead Marines were real and the Terrorists were real.

I suggest you stop comparing yourself to other Marines.You were not one of the brave souls who went ashore on 15 June 1944 to take Saipan, nor were you anywhere near Beirut, Lebonon on 23 October 1983. Those Marines deserve much better than you.

The bombs in London are also real, but you like to skip over that part don't you!

gw

Post 33

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:06pm

Tommie,

The more I think about it, the more I detest you! You are not only a disgrace to the United States Marine Corp, but you are a disgrace to all Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines of the United States of America. You also disgrace the fine people of Missouri and all the men and women who make up the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines of the following countries -

United Kingdom
Australia
New Zealand
Japan
Spain
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Hungary
Albania
Macedonia
Romania
Bulgaria
Turkey
Croatia
Slovenia
Ukraine
Moldova
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Portugal
Denmark
Norway
Netherlands
Italy
Philippines
Afganistan
Uzbekistan
Azerbaijan
Georgia
Marshall Islands
Mongolia
Palau
Tonga
El Salvador
Dominican Republic
Honduras
Kuwait

They are fighting a real war on terror. They are shedding real blood. They are giving their real lives for......

Well if you don't know, then you really are a disgrace.

You may not like the way the war on terror is being fought, but at least someone is fighting it.

And, sleep tight Lolipop! The Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines of the above countries are seeing to it that the real boogie men of this world don't come and kill you in your sleep!

gw

p.s. - You really need to make sure who you are talking to before you taught your bravery. Sometimes there are real fights, and a few of us actually show up!

Post 34

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:14pm

Quoth "gary williams" --

"I have never known a single Marine who has been shot at and 'liked it enough.'"

Apparently you haven't known the same Marines I have, then. I don't think that anyone, myself included, regards war as "fun," but some people (including some Marines, including myself) do feel that they are "in their element" when they're being shot at.

In any case, you're free to your evaluation of whether or not someone might feel comfortable in combat. I do. It's not that there's no fear, it's that there's fear tempered by exhiliration and the knowledge that one knows what to do. My only point was that I'm not especially bothered by specious accusations that I "lack testicles." I've lost a few fights in my life, but I haven't run from one since I was ... hell, probably 12 years old. I learned early that the best way to minimize fights is to make sure that the other guy goes away knowing he was in a fight.

"In fact I saw over 200 Marines killed in one day. It was 23 October 1983. You do remember that date don't you"

Yes, I do. I was still almost a year away from joining the Marine Corps, but I remember it well and later served with Marines who were there. I'm sure that it matters not at all to you (nor should it -- res ipsa loquitur), but you have my deepest respect if you, as a Marine, corpsman, soldier or civilian went through that particular bit of hell and came out the other side.

"The more I think about it, the more I detest you! You are not only a disgrace to the United States Marine Corp, but you are a disgrace to all Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines of the United States of America."

There's really no possible response to that other than the following:

Fuck you. I served for ten years, in war and peace, at home and abroad. I served well, and I served honorably, for six years before the first Gulf War, and then came back without waiting to be called up from IRR in order to serve in that war, in which and after which I also served well and honorably. I don't need your esteem to know those things, nor does the lack of esteem from you diminish those things.

Am I a Dan Daley, a John Basilone, a Lou Diamond or even a Lee Marvin? Hell, no. Very few people are, but I did my damnedest to emulate them, and I know in the only place that counts that, had I been among the Marines who DID go ashore at Saipan, I'd have done what needed to be done. And now that I am a civilian again, I continue to serve my country well and honorably. Your esteem or the absence thereof doesn't affect that fact either.

Tom Knapp

Post 35

Monday, July 25, 2005 - 2:59am

Aaron: "I was far too timid and polite posting my doubts about whether he was related to the bombings"

Well, 50 people were murdered two weeks ago, another 700 injured. Then on Thursday some more murderers tried to do the same thing, and were still at large in the city where I live. Why wouldn't I celebrate one of them being eliminated?

"Just please don't cheer random people getting killed."

That comment might have been a little more convincing if you'd said it before the new information came out. Obviously I and everyone else here is extremely unhappy about the wrong person being killed.

Post 36

Monday, July 25, 2005 - 6:46am

Lolipop,

Fuck me? That's it? That's the best you could come up with?

Boy, your a real mental Mighty Mouse aren't you.

I am soooo disappointed. Oh well, you don't care what I think anyway. I'm going to sign off this thread for now and let some real thinkers debate what's really important.

And I was wrong, you do have testicles. They're just really, really small! (See, now that's an insult! Watch and learn!!!)

gw

Edit: Hijack concluded. Sorry guys!

(Edited by gary williams on 7/25, 6:47am)

Post 37

Monday, July 25, 2005 - 6:54am

Quoth Tim Sturm:

"Obviously I and everyone else here is extremely unhappy about the wrong person being killed."

Understandably so -- but presumably everyone there would be even be more unhappy if the guy had pulled a cord and detonated 10 pounds of dynamite strapped around his chest in a tube station full of innocents.

I'm the first guy to say that when a cop is involved in a bad shoot, he shouldn't get cut extra slack because he's carrying a badge ... but if the facts are as described in the media, I don't see how these cops could have justified another choice.

Sometimes it is just not possible to get a definite, correct answer in the required timeframe with the available information. And some of those times it is absolutely imperative that one act upon the best answer that one can come up with, even knowing that it may be wrong and that an error might entail tragic results.

I feel sorry for those cops. They'll probably all spend a portion of the rest of their lives -- even if it's eventually just a couple of minutes at night as they drift off to sleep -- in a mental and emotional hell over this, wondering what they could have done differently; and the only relief from that will be knowing that if they'd been right about the guy and not acted, they'd be feeling even worse.

Tom Knapp

Post 38

Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 2:40am