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Post 0

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Well I was raised Catholic and he was the pope my whole life so I'm not really in a position to speak negativly of him.

He fought Nazis then he fought Communists. Thats good in my book.

Post 1

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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Indeed Clarence, and while he was certainly pretty reactionary on Roman Catholic social doctrine, at the end of the day he never forced anyone to be a Catholic. In fact I'd say he supported religious freedom.

MH


Post 2

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hmm...I was also raised Catholic, and one of the things that most compelled me to turn away from the Church was their ridiculous stance on birth control, abstinence and AIDS.  It is from the Middle Ages -- and was championed by Pope John Paul II. 

And that the Catholics took so long to recognize and do something about the sexual deviance in their own organization is reprehensible.  The Pope was ultimately responsible for this, so the burden was (and will always be) on his shoulders.

This is not to say that he did not perform works worthy of recognition in his role, but sadly this was shadowed by his refusal to step into the modern century -- and his reticence in taking measures to protect the "children of the church" as their spiritual leader.

I did think the Popemobile was pretty nifty, though.  ;)


Post 3

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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De mortuis nihil nisi bonum, but this bit about Wojtyła having to do with the fall of Communism is a bit of puffery. Poland had a different kind of Communism, a Communist state with an officially established, tax-supported Roman Catholic State Church. Its Communist Party was run from within by PAX, a Roman Catholic lay organization whose role was similar to the role of Opus Dei in Franco's Fascist Spain. The head of PAX, Bolesław Piasecki, was generally regarded as the country's unofficial dictator, appointed by the Soviet NKVD/KGB, with the official Communist government largely front men for PAX.

There were individual priests who participated in KOR and Solidarity, but until their victory they were regarded as dissidents not only against the state but also against the Church. At the time of Wojtyła's election as Pope the cardinals were concerned about the likelihood of a global Communist takeover, and selected a pope who was experienced in collaboration with Communist authorities. It was a smart thing to do, but hardly a sound foundation for moral authority.

Post 4

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 9:25pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, I don't think one should downplay Wojtyla's alliance with Reagan to destroy the USSR. His rhetoric was a big help (as were his writings on the importance of property rights). Another interesting and highly respectable aspect of his life was when he was blacklisted by the Nazis for being a member of the Christian democratic underground -- during which he helped Jews find refuge (as was testified by accusers).


Post 5

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 1:01amSanction this postReply
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"Poland had a different kind of Communism, a Communist state with an officially established, tax-supported Roman Catholic State Church."

This is simply not true. There was no State Church, nor was the Church supported in any way by the state. On the contrary, the state tried to weaken the Church. The period of open war, when the Primate was under arrest, was relatively short, because the Church was very strong and popular.


"Its Communist Party was run from within by PAX, a Roman Catholic lay organization whose role was similar to the role of Opus Dei in Franco's Fascist Spain. The head of PAX, Bolesław Piasecki, was generally regarded as the country's unofficial dictator, appointed by the Soviet NKVD/KGB, with the official Communist government largely front men for PAX."

Excuse me, are you serious? You are way overestimating the power and significance of PAX. It was created by the Party as a means of dividing and weakening the Church, not vice versa.


"There were individual priests who participated in KOR and Solidarity, but until their victory they were regarded as dissidents not only against the state but also against the Church."

Many priests participated in Solidarity, many cooperated with communist secret services. But the Church never treated the opposition as its enemy.


Post 6

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 5:33amSanction this postReply
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But didn't the John Paul challenge the politicians in Krakau and even protected the first free "union of workers". And even through Wojtylas relationsship, the CIA was ablet to send Millions of dollar through the Vatikan to support the "Solidarnosc".

Post 7

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Peter,

I can't tell whether you were there or not, but I can assure you that when I was growing up in Communist Poland, lessons in the Roman Catholic catechism, taught by Roman Catholic priests, were compulsory in the Communist government schools. Regular attendance at Mass was compulsory in the People's Army. And so on - there was hardly any place in the world where the Church was more Established than in "People's Poland."

PAX was not organized by the Polish Communist Party, but by the Soviet NKVD/KGB. At the close of WWII, Piasecki, a long-term admirer of Franco (his pre-war organization was called the "Falanga") convinced the NKVD representatives in Poland that Poland would be most readily governed through a close copy of Franco's Roman Catholic totalitarianism. PAX was set up by Piasecki on the model of Opus Dei, under NKVD control. Korbonski (who was then the Homeland representative of the Free Polish government-in-exile in London) writes in his history of this period, that "Piasecki became the Soviets' most trusted tool in Poland." The Communist leaders of the government and the party came and went over the years, but Piasecki (on behalf of NKVD/KGB) stayed in control of Poland from 1944 through the 1970s.

The Church's relationship to the party and the government on the one hand, and to KOR and Solidarity on the other, was always flexible and complex. Once it became evident that Solidarity had some chance of success, the Church first hedged its bets and then turned around. And, as in the case of other fallen dictatorships, the Church eventually re-wrote the textbooks to give itself credit for their fall.

Post 8

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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If the Pope was picked to be a collaborator, that makes his standing up against Communism even more impressive.  I didn't realize that you grew up in Communist Poland.  And here I thought you leaned left because of your time at MIT.

Post 9

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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I scan the front page of half a dozen major newspapers every day.

That this guy was on all of them, and not this guy:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/11/18_lin.shtml

is one of the sadder facts of modern life, in my opinion.

I ask you --- who has contributed more to human life?

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 4/03, 4:40pm)


Post 10

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Exactly right, Jeff. I guess the late Pope had a pretty sharp mind and spoke many languages. Too bad he didn't take up engineering.

Post 11

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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The Pope was NOT a champion of  human freedom. To make this claim is to drop context. What did he REALLY stand for? Enough of the poliana bull shit.. We all know that the metaphysics, epistemology, and, especially the ethics, of  Roman Catholicism stand in stark contrast to the requirements of human freedom. There are for sure contradictions.  The History of Thomist Catholicism helped bring about  many positive changes in the West. But, mentioning  non-essentials is not what we are all about.

Post 12

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Here is a Leftist commentary on how the Pope was in fact a great skeptic of capitalism: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0404-33.htm 

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