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Post 80

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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It is the government we antiwar libertarians oppose, and do so consistently, not the "United States" or America in general.

I have nothing against American culture. I love America. I love that you can walk around and see people of different ethnicities and religions get along better than in so much of the world. I love that you can open a business here easier than in so much of the world. I love that we are a nation of immigrants, that our heritage is the origin of the Bill of Rights, rock music, and Hollywood.

I love civil society in America, and I love living in America. I also love the Western values of due process, individual liberty and peace.

But none of this can be attributed to a government that spends more than $2 trillion every year on programs not authorized in the Constitution, that holds hundreds of thousands of people in cages for crimes that hurt no one, that immorally mandates attendence at government schools or government-approved private schools, that forces workers to fork over 14% of their income to a fraudulant Bismarckian retirement scam, that has at times conscripted Americans to fight against their will, that bombs innocent people in foreign countries, that is destroying the Bill of Rights, the free market, American civil society. Loving country is not the same as loving the government, as the American revolutionaries of the 18th century knew, and as all true patriots know.

By Rand's standards, the U.S. government commits illegitimate and criminal acts all the time, and thus far is a criminal organization. Why, all of a sudden, on the question of foreign policy, is opposing and denouncing it the same as hating America?

I don't "hate America" "for being good." I recognize that the good of the American revolution and Western Civilization has come about from years of struggle of men and women against the governments that ruled them, including Western governments like Britain's that waged imperial wars and survived because they allowed their "own" people to have enough freedom to produce wealth and not become too dissatisfied with the situation. If you were in Britain in 1776, would you consider all those who opposed the war against America to be anti-British and anti-Western values? Would you say that since Britain had more rights than almost any other country on earth (which it did) that its imperial polices throughout the world were beyond condemnation?



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Post 81

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Jason's point.

Member Number 1090. 1 post.

Draw your own conclusions.

Glad to see SOLO has its own military.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/08, 1:47pm)


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Post 82

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Who hates America for being good? It seems like what is going on is that people on this forum hate people who are critical of the our criminal government.

I hate all governments, because they are all criminal.

On a further note, Robert Bidinotto seemed outraged by this quote from the RBI site.

"Finally, the RBI is initiating a new kind of effort: a Cultural Critique, targeted initially at American culture and its relationship to war."

Compare this to this quote from this very site:

"We see ourselves most emphatically as being at war with the current culture."

What is going on here?

I love plenty of things "American", but not our government. The problem here is the entirely irrational flag waving patriotism on this board. Our government is criminal. Should we praise them for being, the least bad criminals? What is next, giving medals to shoplifters for not stabbing the shopkeep?

If Objectivists wish to have any credibility they ought to drop this flag worship and emotionalism; they ought to call a spade a spade. A is A after all.

Post 83

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Pete, You're going to find little sympathy for your position as stated ("I hate all governments, because they are all criminal.")  Posting in the "Dissent" thread may be more valuable, as you're more likely to get discussion.  Most here (myself included) have no desire to re-hash the minarchist/anarchist debate.

Jason


Post 84

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Is taxation theft? Yes or no? Theft is criminal, right? Do you have trouble following this argument? I fail to see how I am departing any from objectivist stance here. It seems those who are in support of taxation out to post in the dissent area.

Who is talking about anarchy?

Post 85

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

I'm not going to rehash the thousand debates on this issue, but I can give you a synopsis. It comes down to the folowing:

1) U.S. citizens and businesses have an interest in the mid-east.

2) The government has the job of defending citizen's from agressors both foreign and domestic.

3) Saddam Hussein did represent a threat to U.S. citizens and actively sought to harm those citizen's. That he either didn't have WMD, or hid that WMD is beside the point now. At the time it was thought by all major governments (even those opposed to the war) that he did have them. His material support of Palestinian Suicide Bombers who killed U.S. citizens and damaged U.S. businesses is certainly well known. Not to mention his treatment of his own people, that doesn't represent an obligation of the government, but is worth noting.

4) It is recognized that the U.S. governemnt supported Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, and other totalitrian regimes both now and in the past. This isn't ignored or supported. It is noted that fixing this problem is important, but dealing with current threats is paramount.

I recommend that you read some of the many many many threads on this forum where posters on both sides exchange volleys.

Finally, Objectivism recognizes the importance of a limited government. It is at odds with anarchism for very good reasons.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 3/08, 3:02pm)


Post 86

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, but I think Matt Humphreys' reading the same sub-text I was. That's why I asked.

Glad to see SOLO has its own military.

Thanks. Don't forget Byron Garcia. He's seen and is seeing the action in this war. I was from the first Gulf War era (like it was so long ago!)

Ethan


Post 87

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, your statements have nothing to do with anything I have posted.

Is taxation theft?

Is theft criminal?

Does the US Gov tax its citizens?

The answer to all three is yes. Knowing that, how can you not conclude that the government is criminal?

Regardless of the justifications of the Iraq war, it seems objectivists have no grounds for getting angry at people who "hate" the American government.

Post 88

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

This thread is about the anti U.S. stance taken by sites in relation mostly to the war in Iraq. My earlier post noted that this was about hating the U.S. rather than hating the U.S. government.

Yes taxation is wrong.
Yes it is worthy of hate.

But, this thread isn't about that. As I said before. You have walked into a discussion about one thing and started talking about another, albeit somewhat related and easily confused, issue.

Regardless of the justifications of the Iraq war, it seems objectivists have no grounds for getting angry at people who "hate" the American government.
The question is: do they hate they government or do they hate something else. Given some of the stuff on the sites mentioned, I think its safe to say, hatred of the U.S. government isn't the issue.

Ethan




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Post 89

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Yep. You and Matt are first class subtexters.

You and Lord Byron have my heartfelt thanks. I did not have that privilege - lucky in the draft lottery during the Vietnam war - but then that was a different ball game.

Nixon did not inspire the overall kind of free-the-world patriotic sentiment that Bush does. He simply was not an ass-kicker and projected the moral stature of a crooked used car salesman to the world.

I don't like Bush all that much, but I sure like his posture of "You push us and we'll kick your ass and your cousin's ass too." In Brazil, we say that birds who swallow stones know the size of where they will come out.

I also think that Bush is doing serious damage to the Arabian hero role model (used to be Saddam, the one who stood up to the Great Satan). I believe that the Objectivist philosophy has a strong finger in that (ever since Reagan).

BTW - Where is my bunny thing? (Thought I forgot?)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/08, 4:35pm)


Post 90

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Bunny Thing? I must have forgotten myself.......

Ethan


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Post 91

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

You hopped off I guess...

http://solohq.com/Forum/Quotes/0541_1.shtml#23

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/08, 5:52pm)


Post 92

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, I addressed exactly the comments in this thread. Is it your claim that no one here said it was wrong to hate the US government?

Further, why is it so difficult for you to come out and say taxation is theft and call the government criminal. It would seem an "objectivist" would have no problem proclaiming such an obvious truth. It seems you have some irrational emotional attachment to the US government.

Given your comments, it is safe to say that you are unwilling to engage in discourse that gets at the heart of the issue. You would rather dance around it.

One question Ethan, is the US government a criminal organization? If it isn't, explain where my chain of logic breaks down.

Post 93

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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Further, why is it so difficult for you to come out and say taxation is theft

Taxation is theft.

and call the government criminal.

The term criminal has the connotations of legality. Clearly what the governemnt does is not illegal, it is perfectly legal. It is immoral. So Let's say the government is morally wrong to tax the citizen's


One question Ethan, is the US government a criminal organization? If it isn't, explain where my chain of logic breaks down.
See the above.

It would seem an "objectivist" would have no problem proclaiming such an obvious truth.
I guess not.

It seems you have some irrational emotional attachment to the US government.
Not so. I have a rational attachment to the concept of proper government. To that end I endeavor to raise awareness of this issue and vote accordingly. I have never voted for a major party candidate for the office of President of the United States. I have a rational attachment to the protections afforded me by the government. I would gladly donate money to fund those protections. I do not beleive taxation is valid or proper.

Is it your claim that no one here said it was wrong to hate the US government?

No. That is not my claim.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 3/08, 7:02pm)


Post 94

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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I'd like to publicly thank Ethan for taking it upon himself to respond to Pete.  You've demonstrated calm and been very reasonable with those last few posts. 

Jason


Post 95

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Jason!

Post 96

Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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