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Post 40

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Now that I’ve reflected on it, Eric and I agree. He wants the vagrant out now. I hand him a steak knife, we force a Catholic family to raise the baby. And everyone lives happily ever after.

Jon


Post 41

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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"I guess what I am asking is, what context are you using to say that this solution you have posited is perfect?"

The current one, of course. This solution would not have been conceivable before we had the technology to ascertain when the conceptual faculty was hot to trot.

But I balk at the term "perfect" because of its intrinsicist connotations. I'd prefer the term "best."



Post 42

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

we force a Catholic family to raise the baby. And everyone lives happily ever after.
Except the poor bugger that is bought up as a Catholic ;-)

How about setting up Objectivist adoption agencies?

MH



Post 43

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

You make an excellent point in the apparent contradiction between throwing a fetus out of the womb and throwing a child out of the home.  However, you are accepting the premise that the state has the right to criminalize the latter.  While all parents are at times tempted to throw their kids out of the house, few would actually do so.  In such a case, while we are all in agreement that it would be morally reprehensible, should it necessarily be illegal and enforced by the state?

If the only thing keeping parents from abandoning their children is a state law, then the children of these parents would be better off without them! 

In Aristotle's time, children were regularly abandoned by parents who didn't have the desire or means to support them.  This was known as "exposure" and was not a crime. Once again, the question is "At what point must a person sacrifice their life for the sake of another?"  If your answer is "Never," then both abortion and exposure, while not necessarily rational or moral in all cases, should nevertheless be legal.


Post 44

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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MH,

I thought of that, but someone has to suffer in order than justice is brought to Catholics.

Anyway, he’ll be fine. I was brought up Catholic and spanked at least once and look at me today!

Jon


Post 45

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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Once again, the question is "At what point must a person sacrifice their life for the sake of another?"  If your answer is "Never," then both abortion and exposure, while not necessarily rational or moral in all cases, should nevertheless be legal.

As far as exposure goes, I don't think that really follows - the parents chose to assume responsibility for the child until such time as he can fend for himself. They should at the very least make sure the child is passed to someone who is willing to take care of him i.e. through an adoption agency or whatever.

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 1/21, 3:38pm)


Post 46

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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Parents usually do assume responsibility for their children. We are talking about the cases where the parent no longer wants to care for the child.

In most of those cases the parent will put the child up for adoption. However, these are choices the parent makes. If you make a law that will force a parent to care for a child (that cannot survive on their own) then you are making the parent a slave to the child.

The best thing is to give the child up yet it would be immoral to make a law that takes away a parent's right to their freedom.


Post 47

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Jeremy,

If I understand you correctly you're arguing that parents should be allowed to give up any responsibility for their child while that child cannot fend for himself without making some other provision for that child.

But by not choosing to abort the pregnancy, the parents made a decision to accept the responsibility of looking after the child until the "child" can fend for himself (I use quotation marks because once an individual can fend for himself and is willing to do so then that individual isn't really still a child). Given that another life is involved I don't think they should be able to just walk away.  

MH


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Post 48

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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It seems that what is suggested here is that there is an implicit contract between parent and child, in which the parent assumes responsibility for the child's welfare until the point wherein the child can "fend for himself."  If the parents wish to break the contract, it is incumbent upon them to find another party to assume the responsibility. 

In the moral realm, this is perfectly sensible, and is what most parents who wish to give up their children would do.  Only a tiny minority would actually abandon the child without making an effort to find an adoption agency. 

But in the legal realm, once we decide that such an anomaly is illegal and deserves  a punishment, it implies that the child is the property of the state, since the state would in effect be acting as the "injured party."  Having accepted the principle that the child is the property of the state, it follows that further laws can be enacted that hold parents guilty for any sort of parenting the state would deem irresponsible or neglectful.

This is all well and good when we consider truly horrible offenses such as sexual abuse or severe neglect or infanticide.  But what about spanking?  Or punishing a child by making him go without dinner for one night?  These things might indeed be inappropriate, but should the government be given such power?


Post 49

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Eric said:
It seems that what is suggested here is that there is an implicit contract between parent and child, in which the parent assumes responsibility for the child's welfare until the point wherein the child can "fend for himself."  If the parents wish to break the contract, it is incumbent upon them to find another party to assume the responsibility. 

But in the legal realm, once we decide that such an anomaly is illegal and deserves  a punishment, it implies that the child is the property of the state, since the state would in effect be acting as the "injured party."  Having accepted the principle that the child is the property of the state, it follows that further laws can be enacted that hold parents guilty for any sort of parenting the state would deem irresponsible or neglectful.

I say:
The idea of calling such is troublesome because it implies an obligation that can be terminated with mutual consent. It is actually an mandatory obligation that ends only when the child can fend for itself or alternate care is found for said child. However, I think we both have the same idea.

In an actual abandonment case, the child is the injured party because he is the one who cannot fend for himself. The state merely acts as an agent for the child's behalf. And as such has extremely limited means to pursue legal redress. In a proper society, he is not property of the state as no human is the property of another, but his abandonment is child abuse and should be punished. When you choose to have a child (meaning if you decide to carry a pregnancy, wanted or not, to full term) you have the responsibility for either caring for that child till he can care for himself, or you must find an alternate caregiver for your child.

(Special! Limited Time offer. Adopt one Mongoloid or Caucasian and get the Mexican half price. Includes free spatula, great for pancakes and spankings!! Act now, supplies are limited).

It is precisely because the child is not an adult that he must be under an adult's care and supervision. If the parents fail on that count and fail to find him alternative caregivers, it becomes necessary for the state to intervene to find alternate care because failing to do either basically is a death-sentence to a child who having been born has at least the right to live. However, there must be strict objective laws that strictly delimit how the state can intervene so that the rights of all do not get trampled upon. I support strict sentencing for parents that would recklessly abandon a child.

Adam

"Say, I think this Caucasian is defective. And where the hell is my spatula? ARGGH!" Pianoman

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