RoR: Forum

I have watched the standalone HBO documentaries Cathouse and Cathouse 2: Back in the Saddle along with several episodes of the first season of the full Cathouse series recorded at Dennis Hof's fully legal Bunny Ranch in Nevada. Having seen these, I have begun to rethink some of the derivatives of the Objectivist ethics as applied to sexual love. I may write a review for the movie archives here after I watch the remaining episodes.

Suffice it to say that seeing the number of couples who purchased "parties" with the courtesans at the Bunny Ranch surpised me. Many different types procure services there. One mother purchased a party for her 22 year old virgin son. Another 18 year old virgin purchased his own party and said he enjoyed the blow job the best. But the couples proved the most interesting to watch. All of the people involved showed every sign of fully enjoying life with no regrets whatsoever. All had faces "without pain or fear or guilt," i.e. the Objectivist ideal.

In the end, each of us must live his or her own life to the fullest regardless of the objections of others. I have already stated my admiration of the beauty of the female form in these forums and will not repeat myself. What Ayn Rand or Leonard Peikoff or any other Objectivist has to say about how I conduct myself in voluntary transactions does not matter to me. What matters to me is: What do I think?

I think strip clubs and lap dances are great. They gainfully employ women and give men yet another way to enjoy their brief lives on this earth. I have never visited a male strip club, but I hope the women enjoy those as much as men enjoy the female ones. As for the lovers of the customers, if they have a problem with that, they need to work an arrangement to mutual advantage even if that means going their separate ways. In my view, the value of Liberty outweighs the value of Romance in all instances.

The moral purpose of life is simply to enjoy it without sacrificing others. If a person enjoys this form of arousal, he or she needs to find a partner who has enough self-security to accept that. As for the women who protest, many of them belong to the IJIW: Insitute for Jealous Insecure Women. I liked what Ayn Rand noted in "The Age of Envy" when she said that speakers who protested the sexual objectification of women too obviously face no such danger themselves.

Post 1

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 4:17pm

I don't get the joke... looks like a link to another flame war in the name of Objectivism. Gives me more of a headache than a laugh...

Post 2

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:36pm

Ricky, I assumed Robert posted this link to show the ridiculous lengths to which some Objectivists will go to argue over issues which should not even concern them. Robert?

Post 3

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:46pm

~ The ONLY 'principle' (highest-ideals and all that) a male (or lesbian) O'ist should go by in avoiding strip-clubs is in the experienced-based one of expecting LOUSY 'performances' by the (I'm trying to be benevolent here) supposed 'strip-dancers.' Most of the times (not many, OK? not many...back when...) I've been to such I've spent at the pool table.

~ Elsewise, any other ethereally-Ethical 'principles' apply just as much to going (er, avoiding doing such) to a Tina Turner or Madonna concert. 'Dancing Girls' (semi-nude or whatever) are NOT anathema to O'ism, or even Rand. A bit too much confusion exists involved in this idea re porn-prudery, methinks. Rand wasn't a fan of 'porn', true. Yet, where did she accept having one of her most famous interviews? ('Course, this can segue into what's *your* def of 'porn'...as well as what is salacious ('prurient'?) dancing, but, you get my drift.)

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Sally Rand (yes, same last name; famous in her day) and Gypsy Rose Lee were 'performers.' But that was 'burlesque'. Most strip-'joints' nowadays are mere parodies of such. But, occassionally...well, Las Vegas is known for some of THEIR shows...but they don't call them 'strip-shows' (for some reason.) Yet, they (most, anyways) ARE well-done. Erotic? Sometimes. Sleazy? Not by my perspective. --- For those who haven't been to THESE 'shows', anybody have any comments on the movie (ostensibly about behind-the-scenes of that terr) SHOWGIRLS?

P.P.S: I totally agree with LS's views re the 'critics'. Andrea Dworkin would give the same criticisms as they have. She's not one an "O'ist" would want to be in the same camp as.

(Edited by John Dailey on 9/23, 5:54pm)

(Edited by John Dailey on 9/23, 6:14pm)

Post 4

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:51pm

It was kinda funny, in a whinny "Objectivist Newbie Rule Book" way.

"Waaah, my boyfriend wants to go to a strip club and I'm looking for an Objectivist Rule against that kind of activity/entertainment. Please site the rule and help me manipulate him into doing what I want. Waaah....!"

Post 5

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:55pm

Yes - I posted this because considered the manner in which it was broached and so-called discussed was so infantile for those who claim Objectivist mindsets...... and yes, too, was quite saddened to see it as such, as a more mature minded group could have done an enlightenment on many aspects barely [no pun intended] touched on ....

in other words, the whole there seemed a joke......

(Edited by robert malcom on 9/23, 5:56pm)

Post 6

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 5:57pm

I have not been to a strip club in years and really completely lost interest in it as I came to integrate my own values and ideals more fully into my life. I have absolutely no interest in paying someone to pretend they like. Would an artist pay a viewer to pretend they like his art? An employee pay an employer to pretend he likes his work? To pay someone to act out the highest forms of physical intimacy is only the highest form of fraud one can committ to one's self. You are just going through the motions of the effect.

Luke said:

"The moral purpose of life is simply to enjoy it without sacrificing others"

Luke, I disagree, that is not the moral purpose of life, if it were you would be morally justified in running around in a perpetual drug induced state of euphoria, regardless of what happens to you or in the world around you. Proper moral purpose is driven by a proper goal or value. Purposeless joy is hedonism, purposefull joy (i.e. the emotional response that comes from achieving or furthering values) is eudaimonic, not hedonistic.

Michael
(Edited by Michael F Dickey
on 9/23, 7:18pm)

(Edited by Michael F Dickey
on 9/23, 7:19pm)

Post 7

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:05pm

One person's eudaimonia can be another's hedonmoaning....

Post 8

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:21pm

At this point, I think I'll head on over to my local "Mr. Happy" strip-bar, and check out what I've been missing as of late, which so many argue that a 'proper' O'ist OUGHT to avoid. (Hope they still got a pool table!)

LLAP
J:D

Post 9

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:46pm

Michael Dickey, at no point did I suggest that visiting a strip club amounted to destructive and purposeless hedonism nor did I imply it could not integrate into one's hierarchy of values. As for "pretending," watch Cathouse and tell me those courtesans do not enjoy their jobs. Of course, whether a Wal-Mart cashier "fakes" a smile at customers or a stripper "fakes" a sensual look really does not matter. What matters is that they do a good job for the price paid.

I watched an interesting video today my wife purchased called "The Art of Exotic Dancing for Everyday Women." Read about it at

http://www.artofexoticdancing.com

The students in the video came to the class from all walks of life. All of them wanted to explore and connect with their sensual side. Bully for them!

I absolutely, positively refuse to condemn supplier or customer in the sex industry as somehow engaging in "intrinsically evil" actions. They do no such thing. If they lie to their supposedly "monogamous" lovers, I would judge them as dishonest for the lying, not for the particular indulgence.

Post 10

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:07pm

Luke, I disagree, that is not the moral purpose of life, if it were you would be morally justified in running around in a perpetual drug induced state of euphoria, regardless of what happens to you or in the world around you.

But if you ruined your life, then you're not really experiencing a net gain, so I don't see the correlation. Drugs are bad, not because they make you feel good, but because ultimately you lose more than you gain. That being said, some people are perfectly capable of using some drugs in moderation (alcohol and marijauna are the only two I can think of, but some people might be able to handle harder stuff) without ruining their live. I'm fine with that.

Post 11

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:09pm

Robert Malcom said:

"One person's eudaimonia can be another's hedonmoaning...."

No Robert I disagree, the joy that comes from purposeless actions can not be confused with the joy that comes from achieving values. They are entirely different.

Post 12

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:17pm

I would suggest this chick go along with her boyfriend and find out for herself what he's getting out of it. Not to mention that women usually drink free at those places and the dancers will cater to her every whim just to make sure that she continues to allow the man to shell out money. Plus, like other posters have said, there's usually good pool tables.

I'm reminded of one time I was in such a place with my ex-husband and was hanging out in the ladies bathroom conversing with a couple of the dancers. One of them had earned her bachelor's degree (in what I don't remember) a couple of years before but couldn't get a job making the amount of money she wanted to make, so that's why she chose to strip. She drove a Jaguar. She may very well be the exception to the rule, but the point is that those women are there by choice making a living. To each her own.

Finally, one of my standard rules in a relationship.... "I don't care where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home."

(Edited by Ms. Deanna Delancey on 9/23, 7:18pm)

Post 13

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:18pm

Luke said

"As for "pretending," watch Cathouse and tell me those courtesans do not enjoy their jobs"

Lol, you are right Luke, those strippers do actually like their patrons! When they say "you are so interesting!" They actually mean it, and have not said that to 90,000 other people! When they say, "wow you are so sexy" They really think you are!

As for Walmart cahsiers smiling at you and wondering if they mean it, being polite and having manners is a far different thing than pretending you like someone or that you are sexually attracted to them. Manners come from display of initial respect, it comes from a way of showing a person that you respect them unless they show you some reason not to. It is part of living in a benevolent universe.

"... and for that instance each man was free, free enough to feel benevolence for every other man in the room"

Luke also said:

"I absolutely, positively refuse to condemn supplier or customer in the sex industry as somehow engaging in "intrinsically evil" actions."

I concur Luke, I want to emphasize that I am not here saying "objectivists ought not want to go to strip clubs" I am only saying why I do not want to go to them and how I think that relates to objectivism. I have no problem with people freely engaging in actions where no initiation of force is involved. I do not look down at strip club patrons or comdemn them, they have a right to live their lives as they see fit.

btw, can anyone tell me how to get quote blocks to show up in firefox?

Post 14

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:23pm

Michael,
I have to agree with Luke. I haven't seen the movie he refers to, but have seen other such documentaries and have personally known strippers. The simple fact is that those women like sex. If one of them says she's attracted to you, my bet is that she really is. The "you're so interesting" part I don't know if that is really true, but my wager on that one is that she doesn't really care whether you're interesting or not, she's just enjoying what she considers to be fun. Oh, and isn't it great that she's getting paid for it?

Post 15

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:29pm

Jonathan said:

Luke, I disagree, that is not the moral purpose of life, if it were you would be morally justified in running around in a perpetual drug induced state of euphoria, regardless of what happens to you or in the world around you.
But if you ruined your life, then you're not really experiencing a net gain, so I don't see the correlation. Drugs are bad, not because they make you feel good, but because ultimately you lose more than you gain. That being said, some people are perfectly capable of using some drugs in moderation (alcohol and marijauna are the only two I can think of, but some people might be able to handle harder stuff) without ruining their live. I'm fine with that

Jonathan, I agree with your point. Personally, I do not drink or use any drugs (and never have) I was never interested in them and now I really just do not like messing with my conscioussnes. However, I have no problem with people using drugs in order to be more of the person they most want to be. Someone who is shy or insecure in social settings might do well to have a drink or to so they could be more outgoing and sociable. It is when someone drinks or uses drugs to escape dealing with reality that I think it is extremely unhealthy, e.g. I got dumped so I am going to go get drunk.

But what I am talking more about is conceptually usurping the joy that comes from achieving values (or sorrow that comes from losing them) with drug induced euphorias. While today most of these drugs have severe side effects and many other life ruining properties if over indulged, in the future there will likely be drugs with little or no side effects that leave one in a perpetuall state of euphoria or happiness. If you were sad because a loved one passed away, which you take a drug so you would feel better about it? I would never, something like that ought to make one sad. Drawing that to a logical extreme, would you plug yourself into a system or IV which just made you ecstatic perpetually for no reason?

The overwhelming joy that I get from achieving hard fought values brings me a tremendous sense of well being and make me feel far more alive, i think, than any artifically induced one would.

Michael

Post 16

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:38pm

I would suggest this chick go along with her boyfriend and find out for herself what he's getting out of it.

LOL! That's exactly what I thought of telling her, but I'd probably get a newbie "RAND WOULDN'T APPROVE!" right back, which is a whole other bag of beans.

Deanna, my ex-husband used to take clients to a fancy strip club over the boarder a couple times a year. He told me about one stripper who asked for his necktie during her act. So, he took off his tie, gave it to her, then watched in amazement as she made herself a thong out of the tie! I laughed so hard when he told me about this, I could hardly ask him where the tie was so I could try and figure that one out myself. I never could figure it out

The gal had some skills, for sure.

Post 17

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 7:56pm

the joy that comes from purposeless actions can not be confused with the joy that comes from achieving values. They are entirely different.

The problem lies in that what may, to you, be purposeless, may not to another - the values you set to achieve may not be so to another - and yet the both of you may be as rational as any.......

Post 18

Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 4:17pm

Ms 'D'eanna-'D'elancey ('DD'? - my eyebrow raised):

"I don't care where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home."

LOL-ROTFLMAO!!! Wonderfully said! Indeed, I'd say it's very O'ist-fitting!

All:

More should pay closer attention to the 'quiet' comments Robert pops in with.

LLAP
J:D

Post 19

Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:47am