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Post 100

Sunday, January 7 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Doug, but it is clear that you aren't thinking critically.  I've asked why you bring up Christians, no answer.  Why not bring up Nazis?  They did bad stuff.  Your arguments where you drag Christianity in is pure non sequitor.   You don't recognize that tens of thousands of people are being killed in the name of Islam.  You don't recognize that hundreds of thousands of Muslims believe that a violent jihad is moral and that Sharia should be forced on everyone.  But you don't seem to be concerned about that.  Why?  You act as if "Death to American" and barbaric behavior against non-believers is not an issue.  You act as if Islam - the evil ideas - is unrelated to Muslims - the idea holders - and, you act as if any Muslim who happens to live in America must be free of any influence from whatever part of Islam is resulting in tyranny and death around the globe.  I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.



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Post 101

Monday, January 8 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

 

Remember that this whole thread started with Kyrel's statement that the "vast majority" (which would be a lot more than a simple majority) of American Muslims are guilty of actions that should get them arrested, jailed, executed, or deported.  I think this expresses a wrongful, destructive attitude which has continued to influence this thread, and that is what I am primarily arguing against.

I am also arguing that, whatever may be going on with Islam in more backward parts of the world, the vast majority of American Muslims are much the same as the vast majority of American Christians, and that if one goes looking for reasons to condemn a religion, there is not that much difference between Islam and Christianity.

There are a lot more Christians than Nazis in the United States, and it is much more reasonable to view a person with suspicion for self-identifying as a Nazi than to view them with suspicion for self-identifying as a Muslim or Christian.

Organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda are very serious problems that badly need to be dealt with, but our focus should be on those organizations, not on the whole religion.

There are two problems relevant to this discussion.  On is the problem of ISIS and Al-Qaeda, which I agree is serious and spoke to just now.  The other is the problem of general cultural and philosophical conditions in the world, which contribute to a lot of bad things happening.  If we want to look for an arch villain in the latter, the best target is probably Immanuel Kant, who undercut reason and gave the altruist morality a new lease on life, thus strengthening religion and other misguided ideas and making possible a lot of bad things, including Naziism and the strength of religious fundamentalism.  But our primary focus here should be on spreading good ideas, not attacking bad ones.

  



Post 102

Monday, January 8 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Philosophy and intellectual discussion has had a bad reputation for 2500 years now. Ever since the Sophists. Average good people, and those of common sense and simple reason, reject those who engage in such phony debates. They do so with revulsion and loathing. They view them as the enemy of life and happiness.

And rightly so. Many smart, educated, and otherwise-good people dispute virtually every obvious point and quibble over trivialities, never allowing progress to be made, or a conclusion drawn, in any given discussion. Not even tiny ones. These folks militantly refuse to side up with truth over falsity and good over evil. Virtually no fact of any substance, or even clear statement, ever emerges from them. Such perverters of philosophy and intellectualism -- and such destroyers of man -- need to be noted and condemned.

 

(Edited by Kyrel Zantonavitch on 1/08, 9:46am)



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Post 103

Monday, January 8 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

 

You and I have been arguing at cross purposes; we have been arguing about different things.  This has caused us to misunderstand each other.

 

Michael Marotta and I saw Kyrel's starting post as expressing a wrongfully sweeping condemnation of Muslims.  We saw this as continuing on through the thread.  We saw you not distancing yourself from it.   We saw this thread as being about whether Muslims should be so sweepingly condemned.  We saw a need to defend Muslims.  Defending Muslims required clarifying some points about Islam.  That is what Michael and I have been arguing.

 

You didn't see such a sweeping condemnation of Muslims.  You saw Kyrel's post as saying we need to do more about ISIS and Al-Qaeda and their supporters and allies.  You agreed that we need to do more, and that is what you have been arguing. 



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