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Post 20

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,

The parent you describe apparently does have extra resources, and the dedication to help their child realize their full potential. That is good. Ted's solution is the logical choice for this parent. If that is out of reach, though, they cannot force the school or the other parents to accede to their wishes - even if their arguments and offers logically and adequately answer the schools/parents concerns.

jt

Post 21

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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sue - for violation of the disability act... - discriminating in the gifted category because of disability...


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Post 22

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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It's sad that a great mind can be wasted in a useless body.

If that's how they really felt about it, I'd make my own alternatives for my physically disabled, yet intellectually gifted child. I'd set up a classroom right at home, and work at night and on the weekends to understand the subjects he/she had interest in. I'd be a fixture at the library. I'd find a college intern willing to help me for a small fee, and/or some other exchange, because I know there are people in the world that do care.  I wouldn't be a pest or bully toward people unwilling to help me, even if I thought they were mistaken. I wouldn't expect others to change their standards or values in order to satisfy my own.  

I'd recognize that the other parents are actually partly correct; it's about accepting your limitations. It's not so much learning to be "satisfied" with those limitations, but more important to accept the reality of them. To accept reality is to be satisfied with it.  I'll never sprout wings, or understand complex, abstract mathematics. I accept this. I could never romanticize my way into MIT.

Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison both had mothers and families willing to invest in them when other schools would not or could not.



Post 23

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ted -- the school *was* private.

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Post 24

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Somehow, I just knew that was going to be the case.

Post 25

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Re:

The answer ... can be stated in two words: Private schooling.


What I described took place at a private school.

Post 26

Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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I meant privatization of all schooling, not just one private school. (My fault for trying to be cute with just two words.) The attitude you face from people who send their children to private schools now is that they have paid for the prestige and they are damn well going to get it. If this parent had as many private schools to choose from as there now are public schools . . .

. . . And of course there are plenty of assholes in the world and Objectivism won't fix that directly and everyone, including smart kids with physical disabilities needs to learn that.

Post 27

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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"The parents have paid for the prestige, and they are damn well going to get it" excellently describes the attitude of the parents who didn't want anyone with a hurt body taking Latin and math along with their own children.
Some of the parents (incliuding the head of the parents' group) actually said things like: "I'd rather see my own kids dead than see them taking the same courses as _that_."

The family eventually left the listserv where I'd "met" them, and their e-mail address stopped working, so I have no idea what ultimately happened. However -- from what else I know of similar cases -- lawsuits in behalf of gifted kids who are disabled seldom succeed (even though the laws, as written, claim to apply to these situations).

Post 28

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
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That quote is all about her total ignorance of the subject, and from ignorance comes fear and irrationality.

I used to be as totally ignorant as Rand was on the subject. She was clearly giving forth on life on another planet, without every having been there.

I used to think I knew what words like 'perfect' and 'normal' meant-- back when I was homogenized and pasteurized and insulated and ... totally clueless on the topic of 'handicapped' children.

I have two bookend sons, both that have had state mandated IEPs, but for different reasons. Their average IQ is above 100, with one at 60. He is the one with Williams Syndrome, a genetic deletion. He was born without cunning, deceit, and guile, and he is the one who has kept his older brother from becoming a complete and total utter asshole-- like, I used to be.

I have observed firsthand who learns from who in these close relationships between the 'perfect' and the 'handicapped', and it is not nearly the who I would have expected. I am clearly not as smart as I once imagined, in spite of the degrees from Princeton and MIT.















Post 29

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Well, once again, I suppose you can fault me for giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I think it is quite clear that what Rand was objecting to was not exposing children to others who might merely be slower than, or less physically able than, or different looking from others, but to people who are doomed to endless suffering. Of course that description applies to plenty of people sound of body and mind who simply choose to work very hard at being unhappy. If only we could identify them with a blood test and ship them off to some obscure island leper colony of the soul.

Post 30

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Re:

Of course that description applies to plenty of people sound of body and mind who simply choose to work very hard at being unhappy. If only we could identify them with a blood test and ship them off to some obscure island leper colony of the soul.


A blood test couldn't pick them out, but a psychological test might. Unfortunately -- even if some organization could administer such a test (or make and enforce decisions based on the results of previously taken tests) -- the voluntarily unhappy may well turn out to compose so large a fraction of Earth's populace that their mass relocation would require vacating a continent or two (or even locating one or more marginally habitable planets -- I specified "marginally habitable" on the assumption that the voluntarily unhappy would prefer a lifetime abounding in possibilities for misery over, say, immediate death when the spaceship discharged them onto the lunar surface without spacesuits -- since dying quickly probably hurts less than dying slowly, and they *want* to hurt ... )


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Post 31

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Your interpretation of Rand's words is very reasonable and forgiving. But, I can only judge based on her use of the language, her actual words. The quote I was responding to was the following:

"Children cannot deal, and should not have to deal, with the very tragic spectacle of a handicapped human being. When they grow up, they may give it some attention, if they're interested, but it should never be presented to them in childhood, ... "

- Ayn Rand, The Age of Mediocrity, Q & A Ford Hall Forum, April, 1981

Where is the connection "to people who are doomed to endless suffering?" She is equating "the very tragic spectacle" to "a handicapped human being." Period.

There is no doubt that my youngest son, with Williams Syndrome, is a 'handicapped human being,' and there is also no doubt, whatsoever, that he has never suffered a single moment in his life. He is the one of the most joy filled and loving human beings I have ever met in my life, and due to an accident of modern technology, I only accidentally didn't murder him in 1993, when my wife's CVS did not test for Williams Syndrome, which would have been our intent.

Today, our technology is much better, and he is less likely to have escaped our GATTACA inspired human Titanic building hubris, guided as it is by our Penguin armed grasp of what 'perfect' means.

And, my perfect oldest son would have likely been another perfect asshole, of which the world clearly has plenty of, doing things like 'running The Economy...'

There but for the grace of faulty technology go I. Life forgave me my utter cluelessness, and gave me a second chance. I'm grateful.

I would never impose that choice on anybody else. I just know, absolutely, I was spared the biggest mistake of my life.

regards,
Fred

Post 32

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Just to weigh in here, I'm wondering if the word "presented" was intended to be taken in a very specific manner. It wasn't "exposed", "should be segregated", or any other word. When I read the work in question (which was a while ago admittedly) I didn't get any sense that Rand was arguing for forced segregation or brainwashing (or any other patently ridiculous assertions that always seem to be the point of threads like this). I took it to mean that a child shouldn't be deliberately presented with someone who is handicapped during their formative years. I took it to be a statement on the dangers of introducing concepts and realities to a child when they aren't equipped to properly integrate such things. Essentially, the "presenter" runs the risk of warping the child's developing "sense of life". And lets face it, handicapped people (and especially children) get used to lobby for altruist-style goals constantly, including giving children a sense that they're "lucky" just because they weren't "unlucky" and must owe a debt to people who got hit with misfortune in life. As someone who has had a handicapped child "presented" to me in an effort to motivate behavior I can tell you it can be extremely mentally challenging and destructive, and I was an adult.

Post 33

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan:

"Presented" then, needs clarification.

In Clockwork Orange, images of violence are 'presented' to someone as a matter of conditioning. His eyelids were mechanically kept open, and he was forced to stare at the images.

That is one end of the spectrum of 'presented.'

The other end of the spectrum is, 'subjected to walking down the same side of the street as, such that a child's gaze passed upon and he was made aware of the existence of a handicapped person objectively occupying the same existence.'

That is the other end of the 'presented' spectrum.

"Ever, under any circumstances, share the same public classrooms in school as" is what I think Rand meant.

Is it reasonable to mix kids with an IQ of 60 into a classroom of kids with an IQ of 100, and tailor the proceedings to the kid with an IQ of 60? Hardly. I don't know anyone who believes that.

But as well, imagine what kids with IQs of 140+ feel like in classrooms full of kids with IQs of 100. (Sadly, there are plenty of folks who have no trouble at all with that.)

But since education is primarily taken, not given, simply being exposed to 'handicapped' kids is not the fear based horror one might imagine. At one end of the spectrum of 'handicapped' -- the nightmare end -- are beings who cannot control themselves in the least, who scream constantly in a total rage against their reality. But, that is the six sigma end of 'handicapped,' and if that is what Rand meant, then I'd agree, there is no upside in 'presenting' a child with that six sigma reality until a child is an adult equipped and trained to understand and deal with that six sigma reality. But by far, that is not the typical 'handicapped' child. People have to use reasonable judgment -- and they mostly do.

To be clear, the most typical lesson one takes away from close exposure to a 'handicapped' person, especially as a child, is 'reality is not nearly so awe inspiring as my irrational fears; this human, in deeply fundamental ways, values many of the same important things about life that I do.'

Exposure, as a child, to handicapped individuals, can and often does greatly enhance a child's own sense of life. There is no lack of tenacity, spirit, or effort to be found among handicapped children, who strive to joyfully live their lives-- in spite of the fear and ignorance of those around them. 'Handicap' is not a communicable disease.

I think Rand was a product of an earlier, ignorant time, when 'handicapped' folks were barbarically locked away, and shunned, and turned into self-fulfilling images of human misery. Truly barbaric procedures -- frontal lobotomies, icepicks up the eye sockets -- were used to 'pacify' bags of walking meat, who were at most warehoused. We were truly barbaric, fearful primitives. In that world, I agree; it would be horrific to expose children to the products of ignorant tribal barbarism. We should have been ashamed of what we were doing to fellow human beings.

At the other end of this tribal insanity is, exposing children to other children who aren't 'beautiful.' Should a young Nazi-wannabee prick be subject to such 'sense of life' dampening experiences, and be 'presented' with other children who are not 'beautiful?'

Finally, what I've come to learn about some 'syndromes' is, the difference between those with a diagnosed 'syndrome' and 'normal' folks is, ... the absence of a diagnosed known syndrome. Every one of us has genetic deletions, but only those of us with diagnosed 'syndromatic' deletions -- deletions that systematically occur often enough to be called 'a syndrome' -- have a known laundry list. For the rest of us, that laundry list is random, chaotic, and unpredicted. So, what is 'normal' in the large majority of cases is simply 'undiagnosed/unknown genetic deletion/mutation.'

In that case, by 'handicapped' is meant, 'diagnosed handicapped.'

So, be careful what you wish for, and/or will tolerate. That technology is conspiring to get ever better at identifying that perfect GATTACA world, and weeding out the 'handicapped' among us.

regards,
Fred




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Post 34

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Unfortunately, Rand hasn't been sending too many telegrams lately, at least not that I know of. So that clarification of her statement isn't coming. Often times I look up secondary Oist scholars, trusting that there are actually authorities on Oism (!). In situations where no other data or reasonable authoritative interpretation is present. I generally give the benefit of the doubt that the interpretation intended is the one that most integrates with other knowledge I have about Oism and seems the least vicious and crazy. These are not techniques I have commonly seen practiced on the forums.

Regarding what presented means, the fact that you didn't use the word when you were describing your opinions leads me to believe that we have a pretty good bead on what "presented" means. I am using it in a strict sense. Deliberate exposure for the purpose of highlighting features.

Regarding degrees of handicap of course there are variations and that has to be taken into account as part of any situation a person allows their child to be in. There are varying degrees of childhood for that matter. When weighing highly nuanced matters that can't adequately be summed up in a single quote, I defer to paragraph one.

To be clear, the most typical lesson one takes away from close exposure to a 'handicapped' person, especially as a child, is 'reality is not nearly so awe inspiring as my irrational fears; this human, in deeply fundamental ways, values many of the same important things about life that I do.'

That is a baseless assertion. Some, even many, encounters with some handicaps can easily go this way. Many can or will not, depending on a huge variety of factors. I allow my child regular exposure to two crippled people I know. It was a decision that we made based on our knowledge of the people involved to determine that the response you mention would be likely. I work with many handicapped people that I would never want my child around, and they weren't exposed to the horrors you mentioned of decades past.

I'm leaving all the "perfect GATTACA world" stuff sitting, because honestly I think your views there are pretty bizarre and I'm just not going into it, like the abortion baiting that you did earlier.


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Post 35

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Fred, you have to consider that Rand did not have a chance to edit her words, she was speaking off the cuff. It is up to us to consider her entire philosophy, and how her assertion would have been integrated into it. Look at the importance to Rand of sense of life and the benevolent universe premise. Look at her use of the word tragic. The implication is that Rand was saying that children should not have to deal with suffering. Sure, I am interpreting her words. But so are you. For someone whose concern was with individual happiness, I think my interpretation of her meaning makes a lot more sense than yours.

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Post 36

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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So, be careful what you wish for, and/or will tolerate. That technology is conspiring to get ever better at identifying that perfect GATTACA world, and weeding out the 'handicapped' among us.

Stephan Hawking has expressed similar warnings, which I think were just as baseless a testimony of human nature as this one. 

I hope you plan to live a very very long time, Fred, I really do. 


Post 37

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Like most humans, I plan to live forever, or die valiantly in the attempt.

It's not a great plan, but it is vaguely within site of a great plan.

regards,
Fred

By 'human nature', do you mean 'the' human nature?






(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 9/21, 5:09pm)


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Post 38

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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I don't mean the Hobbesian kind.  :)

Post 39

Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Re possible interpretations of the Rand quote with which I began this thread: At least one self-declared Objectivist I bumped into (not my weird acquaintance at college, but an even weirder fellow at a job I didn't hold for long) had some very strange interpretations of what he claimed to follow. Since his favorite Rand quotes included the one I cited, he regarded it as abominable for people who need hearing aids or eyeglasses to enter the presence of children unless they removed the devices and then managed to conceal any problems that the removal caused. (In his view -- NOT a view that I imagine many Oists here, or elsewhere, would hold! -- glasses and hearing aids constituted a particularly vicious attack on children's developing sense of life, because [he supposed] glasses and hearing aids would lead children to doubt the adequacy of Man's senses. Again, I do NOT imagine that many Oists hold that view: I certainly hope not, because I need corrective lenses for some tasks, cannot tolerate contact lenses, and do not wish to spend time and money on eye surgery and recovering therefrom.)

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