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Post 20

Saturday, January 3, 2009 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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I'm with Steve on this. It is not only utopic wishful thinking to unilaterally repeal the Paradox of Violence, it is dangerous to even try.

There is violence, and there is Superior Violence(defined as, just violence projected to thwart or inhibit the unjust first use of violence.) Civilized societies emply Superior violence all the time. Courts, cops, heated jails, militaries are all about Superior violence.

Not even Ghandi was against the concept of Superior Violence.

regards,
Fred


Post 21

Saturday, January 3, 2009 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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I thought Ghandi was an outright Pacifist?

This what Fred Thompson said about Ghandi:

At what point is it okay to fight dictators like Saddam or the al Qaeda terrorists who want to take his place?

It turns out that the answer, according to Gandhi, is NEVER. During World War II, Gandhi penned an open letter to the British people, urging them to surrender to the Nazis. Later, when the extent of the holocaust was known, he criticized Jews who had tried to escape or fight for their lives as they did in Warsaw and Treblinka. “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife,” he said. “They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” “Collective suicide,” he told his biographer, “would have been heroism.”


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTM1NTg1YjFhMGE5MzZjZDUzNzNhNzdkMjE2YmEyNTY




Post 22

Saturday, January 3, 2009 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
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Gandhi was a pacifist on behalf of others. He did not refuse political influence when it came into his own hands.

Post 23

Monday, January 5, 2009 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Punch the pacifist in the face, that will shut them up.  Then, they can't do anything, because the police use force.  Otherwise, they have to admit you are right.

Post 24

Monday, January 5, 2009 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Gandhi on violence was much more complex than the 'absolute pacifist' picture often painted of him.


Some excerpts easily found, there are many:


One of Gandhi’s arguments when recruiting Indians to join the army was not too well received by the British. "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India," Gandhi claimed, "history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity."

...

Gandhi justified his view, "Any injustice on our land, any encroachment on our land should be defended by violence, if not by non-violence... If you can defend by non-violence, by all means do it; that is the first thing I should like. If it is for me to do, I would not touch anything, either a pistol or revolver or anything. But I would not see India degrading itself to be feeling helpless." (’Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel: India’s Iron Man’, B Krishna, Harper Collins India, 1996.)

But whatever exception Gandhi may have considered allowable to nations and individuals in the matter of self defence, he was himself, of course, a committed and unwavering adherent of ahimsa. He died by an assassin’s bullet because he considered having a bodyguard as condoning violence for one’s personal safety. The point I am trying to make here is that though Gandhi was himself unwaveringly committed to his non-violent ideology he did not allow it to blind him to reality, nor lead him into dishonesty in its propagation. He did not hesitate to state that recourse to violence was not something that could be entirely avoided in the course of human affairs.

He was steadfastly against the use of violence for -political- ends. And yet...

regards,
Fred

Post 25

Monday, January 5, 2009 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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From the "Straphanger's Diaries" found posted on NY busses and subways, circa 1969...

"It raineth more on the just than on the unjust, ... because the unjust hath just stolen the just's umbrellas."

Dunno, somehow this seemed relevant.

jt

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Post 26

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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"It raineth more on the just than on the unjust, ... because the unjust hath just stolen the just's umbrellas."

Dunno, somehow this seemed relevant.

---------------------------------------

Absolutely. We're all lied to, from birth, as part of an incomplete indoctrination. We're told 'Crime does not pay', but we're not told why crime does not pay. Left alone, crime not only pays, it pays damn well, unless the victims/prey exact/enforce a payment for crime. Enforces. As in, uses force to bring about. As in, if necessary, in the face of violent assertions of 'No, thank you, I'll stick with the crime, it pays well', enforcement via superior violence.

Otherwise, laws are wishes on paper, mere suggestions.

Not superior violence as in 'bigger,' but superior as in 'just,' aka, the violence of the excessively rained on in response to the unjust excessive rain.

In every tribe of naked sweaty apes, who on average, are average, there are always the fringe reptilian naked sweaty apes who conclude, correctly, that crime is easier than calculus.

In the US, we enshrine these reptiles into office, and sanctify their criminal cronyism with our vote, until in the end, the victims are now the criminals.

regards,
Fred

Post 27

Saturday, August 30, 2014 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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This article came up in a different discussion entirely.  First, I still assert that in every case, a non-violent solution may have existed but was not discovered.  I understand the epistemological problem in that claim.  At the same time, I agree that sometimes evil finds you unprepared for deep thought and your forceful reply may well be overwhelming. The moral responsibility for the violent response rests with the initiator. The claim that some other alternative existed is based on volition: you are not always causally required to respond to violence with violence.  Also, hindsight being perfect suggests that foresight might have prevented the situation.

 

Second, we have had discussions about NIOF, Non-Initiation of Force. In The Constitution of Galt's Gulch, Wolf Devoon points out that without the initiation of force, witnesses and other evidence might never be produced for a trial. I suggest that jury duty might be restructured to paid professions offering a service, but here and now, certainly, jurors are also subjected to the initation of force to compel their attendance.  (Yes, we are lenient in the enforcement.)  Courts work by threatening the innocent. 

 

If we adhere to strict NIOF, injustices might go unremediated:  (1) no witnesses equals no trial; (2) the innocent accused are deprived exculpatory evidence.  Perhaps we could live with that.  In "Galt's Speech" Rand says that the anti-life mind-haters always offer only a zero, a loss, suffering, as their motive.  Whether or not the victim deserved their plight, the fate of the victim is the blackmail threat to extract values from the productive.

 

I have no resolution to the problems, but I recognize their existence.

 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 8/30, 5:57am)



Post 28

Sunday, November 23, 2014 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

 

Ghandi certainly was one of the strongest advocates ever of 'seek that solution first.'    But I am influenced by his writings on the topic; Ghandi, as one of history's most thorough advocates of 'non-violence first' was not yet an advocate of 'non-violence always.'    He recognized that in the end, ultimately, failing to find 'that solution' that civilized justice ultimately can sometimes only be achieved by not only force, but violence.

 

That sometimes should be as rare as possible...but no rarer.   And mankind, being what it is, on average, will imperfectly realize that and all else.

 

If that realization was good enough for Ghandi, it is good enough for me.

 

regards,

Fred



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Post 29

Sunday, November 23, 2014 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Violence is the first resort of the Incompetent.

 

Violence is the last resort of civilization.



Post 30

Tuesday, December 2, 2014 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Said another way:

 

WASHINGTON—Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul , who is preparing a possible bid for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016, sought to outline a nuanced foreign policy on Tuesday that he said puts him in the mainstream of the country and his party.

Mr. Paul told The Wall Street Journal CEO Council’s annual meeting that he sees war as a “last resort.”

 

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/sen-rand-paul-says-foreign-policy-stance-puts-him-in-mainstream-1417555241?tesla=y&mg=reno64-wsj

 

 

regards,

Fred



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