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Post 140

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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John-
I do consider a capital murder case where a potential witness refuses to testify simply to be a defiant asshole as a contrived case. Even if you want to consider only subpoena for capital murder cases, it's more plausible and interesting to consider a witness in fear for their own life for testifying - such as either fear of retribution from the accused personally if the case isn't sufficient to ensure conviction, or from others such as in mob cases. Forcing witness testimony then goes directly against the rational self-interest of the witness.

Coercing taking the stand also isn't the same as coercing valid testimony. I agree with Valliant concerning the practical problem that a truly hostile witness will say nothing or lie even if we mandate forcing them to the stand. And now I am also wondering why fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination shouldn't either be extended to incrimination of others - or itself eliminated.

Concerning emergencies, I agree with Rand on their ethics and temporary exceptions made to normal ethics during them. However, I also agree with Rand on defining emergencies in a very limited fashion:

"An emergency is an unchosen, unexpected event, limited in time, that creates conditions under which human survival is impossible—such as a flood, an earthquake, a fire, a shipwreck. In an emergency situation, men’s primary goal is to combat the disaster, escape the danger and restore normal conditions (to reach dry land, to put out the fire, etc.)."

I agree that in the battlefield under fire constitutes an emergency situation. Attempting to call people sitting in an air-conditioned courtroom with periodic recesses doesn't fit, nor does politicians and bureaucrats attempting to figure out how to get paid by the citizens or how to get more warm bodies to send into war. Battlefield emergency context doesn't apply to the courtroom, taxation or draft. Attempting to make 'emergency' apply to such cases would be so broad as to make the term almost useless.

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Post 141

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Jon-
I don't think I know any libertarian who wouldn't see as valid shooting through a hostage to hit someone pointing a gun at you, and that blame for the hostage's death would fall on the hostage taker. Perhaps some rare individuals exist who hold that, but in general the 'libertarian NOIF' you present serves as a strawman.

However, I also don't think I know any Objectivist or libertarian who seriously thinks that in such a situation it would be justified to rob every resident of your town to fund your operation, enslave those living on your block to help you, and kill everyone with the same first name as the hostage taker in the process. Your presentation of 'Objectivist NOIF' and retaliatory force seems overly general in allowing force arbitrarily and upon uninvolved third parties rather than just hostages/bystanders in the situation. I don't think you seriously intend it this broadly, but am curious what you mean in say this individual scenario.

Post 142

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan-
Restitution I'd see coming from the police force. In hopefully rare cases where individual officers were criminally liable such as knowingly incarcerating someone innocent, I could see the argument for restitution also from the officer personally. This would in general increase the cost of police enforcement as long as locking up innocents was common.

John-
I mean above the law exactly in the context Jonathan and I were discussing. Right now police - individually or collectively - are generally not liable for restitution for locking up an innocent even on good faith, whereas a non-police civilian doing so would be.

Post 143

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Aaron:

So what you're saying is, you would put a caveat on the NIOF principle in a certain context (emergency situations) which means the principle itself is either not a principle, or that it must not be devoid of context. So the issue is "emergency situation" but why is that the standard for the caveat? What is the reason to abandon the principle if an emergency arises? It seems to me the standard is the self-preservation of life in response to an initiation of force. If we get to say that the principle must be put into its proper context, then why is a subpoena power, which it's purpose is to determine innocence or guilt in the pursuit of justice not a valid context anymore than an emergency situation such as "war" is? What is your justification for "emergency" situations? Why are we able to initiate force during the course of retaliation against those that do not transgress against us during an "emergency" and not in any other context? Why do you get to make this pronouncement of context and claim it cannot apply in any other situation? Based on what principle?

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Post 144

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

That the subpoenaed witness may lie does not make the subpoena, and the attempt to get the truth, futile. He’ll have the threat of charges and prison time if he purgers himself on the stand, the threat that it may someday be provable that he lied. This serves as a strong incentive to tell the truth. So you can’t say the subpoena will be futile. So, sure, “Coercing taking the stand also isn't the same as coercing valid testimony.” But that’s not the issue. The issue is whether the court is justified in at least trying to obtain the truth.

Your concerns regarding the murderer’s mob buddies killing the witness for testifying are legitimate. I’d consider an exception to the right to confront one’s accusers in a case like that—he can testify behind closed doors, and he can get police protection. And the jury should be free to put a discount on the testimony from a secret witness. That’s OK, because his testimony could well be verified independently once the police get the details. Then, the court and jury would be privy to the truth, regardless of the source of the lead that got them there.

I think pursuit of justice following a murder does qualify as an emergency. You quoted Rand, ““An emergency is an unchosen, unexpected event, limited in time, that creates conditions under which human survival is impossible” Someone has already been murdered, “conditions under which human survival is impossible” indeed!

And the objection that battlefield defense qualifies because it is a rare event, while pursuit of justice does not qualify because it is an everyday event, fails. “a flood, an earthquake, a fire, a shipwreck…” These too are everyday events, hardly to be “unexpected” as her unfortunate choice of wording implies. Nevertheless, clearly she meant life at stake, not rare.

The pursuit of justice qualifies because if the justice system is crippled, we’re all fucked.


Post 145

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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A subpoena can also be a request for information and not just witness testimony. My business gets these at least half a dozen times per year (generally asking for hotel records). I am not under any threat, no mob boss has called to say they will kill me, and the only damage I suffer is the time that I take to compile the information to fax back. I would comply even without the threat of force and I'm not that concerned about the cost it is to me (it is quite minimal) however I do think it ought to be mandatory third parties are always compensated. But these are details of due process that can be worked out. Just as we have set up rules for probable cause, speedy trial, habeas corpus, the right to be free from unreasonable search, etc. to insure justice is served and a fair system of due process is in place, so too can we set up rules for subpoena powers and alter the details of those powers if needed.

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Post 146

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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I've posted this because I think it is relevant to the topic of journalism, neutral observers, and atrocities:

A journalist, interviewing a neutral NGO/ International Red Cross official, during the observation by both of massacre of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Rwanda:

From PBS transcripts, "Ghosts of Rwanda."  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ghosts/etc/script.html

FERGAL KEANE, BBC: Walking around here, the images are quite horrific. You've been dealing with this for a long time. What do you think?
PHILIPPE GAILLARD, Red Cross: I don't know if I-- if I still feel something. I'm-- I have a brain of iron. That's the way I've survived. That's the way I can speak to you in so clear language.
FERGAL KEANE: Is there a high price to be paid for that kind of brain of iron? Later on, perhaps?
PHILIPPE GAILLARD: Later on, maybe. For the time being, so far, so good.
NARRATOR: Soon after the killing began, Gaillard decided he had to challenge the extremist government. Rwandan troops had stopped a Red Cross ambulance and killed six patients.
PHILIPPE GAILLARD: I decided to call my headquarters in Geneva to tell the story. And my counterpart in Geneva told me, "Do you think we could make it public?" And then you think twice. I mean, because if you make it public, then you know that people might kill you, or would really decided to kill you because of what you told. It was [unintelligible] We decided to do it. So following day, BBC, Reuters, Radio France Internationale-- it was everywhere.
NARRATOR: The publicity embarrassed the extremists, and their government gave the Red Cross safe passage throughout Rwanda.
PHILIPPE GAILLARD: So these six people didn't die for-- for nothing. I mean, they-- because of their deaths, hundreds of other people could be saved.
NARRATOR: Gaillard cultivated a relationship with the extremist leadership, which he believes helped the Red Cross save 65,000 lives.
PHILIPPE GAILLARD: When-- when we talk about mass saving, I think that's best. And the only way is to talk with the people who want to kill them.
I remember one day, I met by chance Colonel Theoneste Bagosora. I told him, "Colonel, do something to stop the killing. I mean, this is-- this is absurd. I mean this-- this-- this is suicide. I mean"-- And his answer was-- there are words you never forget, you know? His answer was, "Listen to, sir. If I want, tomorrow I can recruit 50,000 more Interahamwe." So I took him by the shirt. I'm 58 kilograms and he must be 115. Now I took him by the throat, looked his eyes and told him, "Theoneste, you will lose the war."
NARRATOR: Gaillard's network of aid workers across Rwanda gave him the most accurate count of the death toll. He estimated that in the first two weeks, 100,000 Rwandans had been killed.
The Red Cross has a tradition of neutrality and public silence[*], but Gaillard decided that this genocide would be different.
PHILIPPE GAILLARD: The International Committee of the Red Cross, which is a 140 years old organization, was not active during the Armenian genocide, shut up during the Holocaust. Everybody knew what was happening with the Jews. In such circumstances, if-- if you don't at least speak out clearly and-- you are participating to-- to the genocide. I mean, if you just shut up when you see what you see-- and morally, ethically, you cannot shut up! It's a responsibility to-- to talk, to speak out.
 
 

In a sane world, one in which justice from beyond the horizon is a possibility, just bearing witness is sometimes enough.  But the fact is, in Rwanda, although the passive actions of the IRC did save lives, the killing only stopped when the Tutsi rebel forces won the war, by force.  The IRC was 'saving lives' in the sense that it was applying bandaids to the victims overflowing from that meatgrinder.   But, they were not stopping the meat grinder.

So, in an insane world, bearing witness can just be an annoying reminder of how insane the world is, and an embarrassing reminder of our cowardly insanity.

It is never in our self-interest to surrender the world to the visions of thugs, warlords, throat slitters, car bombers, and beheaders, unless we want to live in their world.

The forever asked by the always with us insane question: "Is this world taken?"

regards,
Fred


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Post 147

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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When people encounter Rand and Objectivism, those that are drawn to her fiction and/or philosophy are attracted for a wide variety of reasons. For me, the most powerful component of her work was the vision of Galt's Gulch - the idea that one could live independently and free in a harmonious society of rational people, devoid of pain, fear or guilt. Certainly it is an ideal, but a very powerful and beautiful one that seemed to be a worthy abstract goal and realistically achievable, at least in some degree. I enjoy exploring the specific aspects of Objectivist thought, testing my understanding against real-world situations and integrating that knowledge into a consistent, systematic hierarchy. But that activity is meaningless for me unless it ultimately supports forward motion towards the goal of a better life.

I'm an architect, and as such I spend a considerable amount of time thinking about how the built world can be designed. Through the creation of everything from graphics to buildings to landscape and large scale urban planning, the goal of this work is to support the creation of a more beautiful and harmonious life. I particularly enjoy the process of transforming creative, abstract thought into concrete results. When considering social/political issues I approach them in much the same manner. I try to envision the type of world I want to live in and then look for realistically creative solutions that would structure society in a positive manner. And for me, the positive is movement towards that Randian ideal discussed above.

I participate in forums like this one because I believe it would be enjoyable to associate with other like-minded people and discuss solutions to problems within a framework of shared values. I do enjoy some of the discussions, but must admit that I am troubled by them more often then not. For example, I'm not interested in contemplating, let alone living in a world where a photographer can be justifiably shot for his inaction, regardless of the circumstances. Whatever your personal view of Galt's Gulch, what remains of it if you envision adding this single ingredient. Or consider the following:

> That the subpoenaed witness may lie does not make the subpoena, and the attempt to get the truth, futile. He'll have the threat of
> charges and prison time if he purgers himself on the stand, the threat that it may someday be provable that he lied. This serves
> as a strong incentive to tell the truth. So you can't say the subpoena will be futile.

So much for a world without pain, fear or guilt. Here, we advocate the use of fear in our dealings with others, sacrificing personal autonomy in the process, and apparently justify it on the belief that it is practical in getting the desired results. In contrast to this, in all of my prior comments regarding the use of subpoenas, I have been operating from a vision in my mind of a society where the majority of free people understand the personal benefits of a society based upon truth and justice and are freely willing to come forward with information to convict the guilty and defend the innocent. (See John Armaos' comments above.) In my vision I also recognize that there will always be people who would not voluntarily participate in this process, but they would be a very small number, similar to the number of people that wouldn't lift a finger to rescue a starving child. Is my vision of a freer society unrealistic? Possibly. The more I read on this forum, the more convinced I become that it must be. If so-called Objectivists are not interested in pursuing this ideal, then who is left to do so?

Just so that I'm not completely misinterpreted here, I would like to say for the record that I'm not attacking or dismissing anyone. I think everyone is participating in these discussions with genuine good intent, devoid of malice, with the goal of presenting or divining certain truths. And I'm appreciative of that. I'm just wondering whether we all don't sometimes lose sight of the big picture as we wrangle with the details?

Regards,
--
Jeff

P.S. I just thought of a way of summarizing what I am trying to say above. If Objectivism wants to make any headway in redirecting culture, I believe that it needs to focus on how to make people want to be good rather than on having to be good.
(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 8/09, 4:01pm)


Post 148

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Thou Shalt not Bear False Witness

Aaron, I'm not sure if you are jumping into this string at random, but your posts suggest that you are not beginning with first principles in your arguments about subpoenas. Rand did not consider subpoenas or any other measures of enforcing justice to be emergency matters. You must keep in mind the context of the non-initiation principle as a
political principle subordinate to an ethical premise. And you have to consider who is at blame when a subpoena is issued (or for that matter when someone commits perjury) before using political objections as stolen concepts to undermine their ethical underpinnings.

Just as property is not theft, so justice is not the initiation of force. If you accept the validity, within its context, of subpoenaed testimony, you can easily come to the solution of closed-court or anonymous testimony in the case of intimidated witnesses, and the necessity of perjury charges against those who bear false witness. Even your brother-in-namesake Moses got that one right, Aaron. The Ten Commandments forbid perjury, not lying.

If we want to tear down the entire structure of the Constitution and the Common Law because some people are cowards and others are criminals, we might as well all declare ourselves god-emperors, all wear flags of surrender, and all shoot on sight.

Ted Keer


I ask that those who appreciate the poetry of this piece, or the pretty blue links, manoeuver their cursors over the orange check-mark and left-click thereon.


(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/09, 7:44pm)


Post 149

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:

> Just as property is not theft, so justice is not the initiation of force.

That's a beautiful statement. Concise and poetic.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 150

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jeffery,

You wrote,

“That the subpoenaed witness may lie does not make the subpoena, and the attempt to get the truth, futile. He'll have the threat of charges and prison time if he purgers himself on the stand, the threat that it may someday be provable that he lied. This serves as a strong incentive to tell the truth. So you can't say the subpoena will be futile.” [Jon L.]

“So much for a world without pain, fear or guilt. Here, we advocate the use of fear in our dealings with others, sacrificing personal autonomy in the process, and apparently justify it on the belief that it is practical in getting the desired results. In contrast to this, in all of my prior comments regarding the use of subpoenas, I have been operating from a vision in my mind of a society where the majority of free people understand the personal benefits of a society based upon truth and justice and are freely willing to come forward with information to convict the guilty and defend the innocent.” [Jeffery]

This reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about lately. I think one contributor to disagreement in these conversations is the ‘state-of-the-world context’ that each discussant assumes.

In the ‘state-of-the-world context’ you present above, I have to acknowledge that subpoenas would be unnecessary, just another leash on men who should be left autonomous. My context in this discussion has been the current state of the world, and I see rotten people everywhere. It isn’t hard at all for me to imagine gang-members withholding information on who murdered the NFL player in Denver this year, for example.

So, when you see subpoena power you see an unnecessary leach, and when I see suggestions to abolish subpoenas I see a framed license to protect gangbanging murderers hanging on the basement bedroom wall of some scumbag.

I think Rand was thinking of the current state of the world when she stated her approval of subpoenas.

Another example is gun control. Rand’s statements on the subject have long rankled me.

Here she is at the Ford Hall Forum in 1971 (From Ayn Rand Answers):

Q: What is your opinion on gun control?

A: I do not know enough about it to have an opinion, except to say that it’s not of primary importance. Forbidding guns or registering them is not going to stop criminals from having them; nor is it a great threat to the private, noncriminal citizen if he has to register the fact that he has a gun. It’s not an important issue, unless you’re ready to begin a private uprising now, which isn’t very practical.

I have always taken her stance on guns in the current-state-of-the-world-context. So I respond with: “Not an important issue!?” And, “Good lord, registration is only being pushed because the first step to confiscation is getting a list of who has ‘em and how many.” And, “Abominable!”

But, if she was thinking of an ideal-state-of-the-world-context, then I have to admit: Guns would not be very important (at least not for protection.) And registration would indeed be no “great threat to the private, noncriminal citizen,” because there wouldn’t be a political context where hundreds of millions were voting for politicians eager to give them their way and ban guns.

Another example is voluntary financing of national defense (indeed, of all government.)

I’ve never been able to come over to this Objectivist staple, because I see the Russians in the fifties, or the Chinese in the future raising huge capacities. I ask myself: What if voluntary financing falls terribly short? I see pacifists and appeasers everywhere in our country and it isn’t hard for me to imagine them all saying, “I’m not donating, because no one’s gonna hurt us if we just mind our own business, love is the solution.” I see the Chinese, their hands not tied by the scruples of voluntarism and non-initiation, running us over (read: “running me over”) in the first inning. I thank god no one in government right now cares a whit about compulsory taxation.

Whereas, if I reconsider the question, this time in the ‘state-of-the-world context’ you present above, I can see that few if any foreign threats would exist, because even given the occasional human aberration, the world would be lead by rational men. And as I behold “a world without pain, fear or guilt” I come to agree that compulsory taxation is always wrong.


Post 151

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 9:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

In your post #150, thanks for being able to see my perspective on the issue. I agree with you that much disagreement occurs because of many unexpressed assumptions that each of us brings to these discussions. You make an excellent point regarding your observation about our differing views of the "state-of-the-world" and your examples are very interesting. This thread is probably not the proper place for it, but it might be interesting to have a discussion at some point about what changes we might realistically expect to see in the state-of-the-world and how we could begin to get from here to there.

Regards,
--
Jeff
(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 8/09, 9:18pm)


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Post 152

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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Another example is gun control. Rand’s statements on the subject have long rankled me.

Here she is at the Ford Hall Forum in 1971 (From Ayn Rand Answers):
Q: What is your opinion on gun control?

A: I do not know enough about it to have an opinion, except to say that it’s not of primary importance. Forbidding guns or registering them is not going to stop criminals from having them; nor is it a great threat to the private, noncriminal citizen if he has to register the fact that he has a gun. It’s not an important issue, unless you’re ready to begin a private uprising now, which isn’t very practical.
I have always taken her stance on guns in the current-state-of-the-world-context. So I respond with: “Not an important issue!?” And, “Good lord, registration is only being pushed because the first step to confiscation is getting a list of who has ‘em and how many.” And, “Abominable!”

But, if she was thinking of an ideal-state-of-the-world-context, then I have to admit: Guns would not be very important (at least not for protection.) And registration would indeed be no “great threat to the private, noncriminal citizen,” because there wouldn’t be a political context where hundreds of millions were voting for politicians eager to give them their way and ban guns.
True, forbidding guns is not going to stop criminals from having them. But it will stop law-abiding citizens from having them, and the criminals know that and will take advantage of it. Criminals are less likely to invade a home or attempt to rob someone, if they know that the average citizen is permitted to possess and carry firearms. John Lott's book, More Guns, Less Crime shows that violent crime in urban neighborhoods with high crime rates is lower in counties with right-to-carry laws. Rand didn't take account of the fact that gun ownership by private, law-abiding citizens can serve as a deterrent to crime, nor of the statistics, which didn't appear until recently, that bear this out. I'm also surprised that she didn't defend gun ownership simply from the standpoint of individual rights. You have a right to own a gun simply for such things as target practice, skeet shooting and hunting, as well as for self-protection.
Another example is voluntary financing of national defense (indeed, of all government.)

I’ve never been able to come over to this Objectivist staple, because I see the Russians in the fifties, or the Chinese in the future raising huge capacities. I ask myself: What if voluntary financing falls terribly short? I see pacifists and appeasers everywhere in our country and it isn’t hard for me to imagine them all saying, “I’m not donating, because no one’s gonna hurt us if we just mind our own business, love is the solution.” I see the Chinese, their hands not tied by the scruples of voluntarism and non-initiation, running us over (read: “running me over”) in the first inning. I thank god no one in government right now cares a whit about compulsory taxation.
Wouldn't that same argument apply to democracy versus dictatorship? Suppose we lived under a dictatorship, and someone proposed democracy as an alternative. Would you argue against it by claiming that since we live in a country of pacifists and appeasers who would vote for a weak defenseless government and dangerously low taxes, we can't allow it? We can't let "the people" rule, because they don't know what's good for them. Only a dictatorial government which can tax the hell out of us is qualified to protect us from our enemies. Democracy isn't practical in this day and age. Maybe in some future utopia, but certainly not now when we're at the mercy of tyrannical foreign powers who would deprive us of our freedom and turn our country into a dictatorship!

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer on 8/10, 9:35am)


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Post 153

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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I still see it as unlikely that national defense can be funded by voluntary taxation and a small % tax seems reasonable to me.  If we got rid of everything that was against Objectivist ethics our taxes would drop by what, maybe 80% or so?  Maybe 90%?  I think everyone would be happy.  Then we can worry about the next step.

I think testifying should also be paid, in the same way jurors should be paid, based on verifiable income lost during the term of service.  However, another problem is that the laws have to be just, for example testifying in drug cases I would have a problem with (unless there was also associated violent crimes, which is likely but not always the case).

I also think Rand's assessment of "helping someone where there is little harm to self" applies in this picture case, as helping that child would not have been of any danger or difficulty to the photographer.  The fact that he chose to - MORALLY - claim that he should NOT do so, should be condemned as a sick inversion of morality.  I don't agree with any retribution being taken on him for it though, other than I would not buy or sanction anyone associated with paying him for the photo.


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Post 154

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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I still see it as unlikely that national defense can be funded by voluntary taxation and a small % tax seems reasonable to me.
Reasonable?! How could it be reasonable, when it's a form of armed robbery and violates individual rights?
If we got rid of everything that was against Objectivist ethics our taxes would drop by what, maybe 80% or so? Maybe 90%?
TAXES are against the Objectivist ethics! Hello! If we got rid of everything that is against the Objectivist ethics, we'd get rid of taxes. You can't be an Objectivist or believe in individual rights and support armed robbery, whether by private citizens or by the government.
I think everyone would be happy.
Not the people who didn't choose to contribute what the government demanded, and were forced to hand it over under threat of fines or imprisonment.
I think testifying should also be paid, in the same way jurors should be paid, based on verifiable income lost during the term of service.
The problem here is that if you think someone has no right to withhold testimony on the grounds that to do so is acting as an accomplice to the crime, then the person cannot demand payment for the testimony, since it's his legal obligation to provide it.
However, another problem is that the laws have to be just, for example testifying in drug cases I would have a problem with (unless there was also associated violent crimes, which is likely but not always the case).
But you can't pick and choose your laws. The government passes the laws with or without your consent, and the conditions of testimony apply across the board to all violations of the law, not just to those you disagree with. If testimony is compulsory, then it is compulsory for victimless crimes as well as for real crimes.

- Bill



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Post 155

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

The Objectivist state is justified on the grounds that individuals have the right to government protection of their rights. If the legitimate government functions of police, courts and military are insufficiently funded, such that the individual is NOT having his rights protected, then that’s a violation of his right to a government that protects his rights. Who is behind the violation? The individuals who are clamoring about their right to have their rights protected by government, while simultaneously refusing to pay.

The standard response is to say it won’t happen. Well, that’s a very easy way out, but not all of us think it can’t happen.


Post 156

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt originally wrote:

I think testifying should also be paid, in the same way jurors should be paid, based on verifiable income lost during the term of service.


To which Bill responded:

The problem here is that if you think someone has no right to withhold testimony on the grounds that to do so is acting as an accomplice to the crime, then the person cannot demand payment for the testimony, since it's his legal obligation to provide it.


Ok that's a fair point. But there is obviously a contention here from many people as to whether the government ought to have subpoena powers. There is obviously some epistemological disagreements here. So given that disagreement, compensation to the third party compelled to provide information pertinent to a crime doesn't mean one is not legally obligated to give the testimony, only that we make every effort to be as non-intrusive as a government can be while still maintaining a level of peace and tranquility (i.e. justice)

For example, there is no law of nature for example that says what is an unreasonable search or seizure, but to keep fairness in mind, we need to pick some standard for when someone can be searched and when they cannot. If no standard can be agreed upon because we may search an innocent person, it leaves government impotent, and leaves rational men to fend for themselves against the brutal thugs that live among them. There are obviously going to be disagreements on the concretes of these things (subpoena power, unreasonable search and seizure, etc) which is why some authority must make that judgment (our form of a liberal democracy seems to do a decent job of that, albeit I agree certainly requires amending).

If we are to take the notion of NIOF principle to its logical conclusion, how is it that anyone can be presumed innocent until proven guilty, yet be subject to arrest if suspected of a crime? This presumes innocent people under such a system will be arrested, and force will be used against them. But the NIOF principle would presume we can do no such thing. I'd like to see libertarians come up with a real-world solution that leaves this principle intact, but can presume any reasonable level of justice can be established, and not leave civilized society to the murderers, thieves, and rapists?

The principle presumes that we are making the idea of a subpoena power as a means of force to be morally equivalent to rape or murder as means of force. I can't accept this notion for if I do, holding an innocent over for trial (which hopefully if really innocent will be exonerated through trial) is to be morally equivalent to rape, murder, and theft.

Post 157

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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There's a legitimate and perhaps effective way to fund minimal government by voluntary contributions — and that is by having no privacy restrictions of the information on the amount that each person donates.

There would be subtle ways to let under-contributors know that they were not pulling their weight, such as not doing business with them, not associating with them, and, frankly, allowing  a certain stigma to be attached to them.

I acknowledge that this proposal smacks of social conformity and political correctness.

Any better ideas?

Sam


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Post 158

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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I find it inconsistent to make noise about one’s right to government protection of one’s rights, while simultaneously describing funding it as a “choice.”

How about this: The police don’t respond to your 911 calls unless you’ve paid your taxes?

Bill proposed withholding your right to vote unless you sign something promising to testify when asked to, so how about my proposal?

Both proposals preserve voluntarism (even if they look a lot like blackmail.)


(Edited by Jon Letendre on 8/11, 8:03pm)


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Post 159

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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The Objectivist state is justified on the grounds that individuals have the right to government protection of their rights.
No, they don't! Where did you get that idea? The only rights they have are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They do not have the right to anyone else's labor, including the labor of the police, the courts and the military -- unless they pay these organizations to provide it, in which case, the failure to provide it would constitute a breach of contract. But there is no unconditional right to be protected and defended by other human beings, including those in the government.
If the legitimate government functions of police, courts and military are insufficiently funded, such that the individual is NOT having his rights protected, then that’s a violation of his right to a government that protects his rights.
Not according to Objectivism, in which the "concept of a 'right' pertains only to action -- specifically, to freedom of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other men.

"Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a positive -- of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights....

"To violate man's rights means to compel him to act against his own judgment, or to expropriate his values. Basically, there is only one way to do it; by the use of physical force." (AR, "Man's Rights)

Jon, you've been around Objectivism for many years. I'm surprised you didn't know this.

- Bill


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