About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Once again we in the philosophically ignorant, morally disarmed West learn that Islam is a truly evil ideology comparable to Naziism, Bolshevism, and Spanish Inquisition Catholicism. Islam wages aggressive war on the whole world via "jihad," and aggressively seeks to enslave all of us via "sharia."

When will the West admit that the vast majority of all Muslims -- including in the West -- support jihad and sharia? It's not even controversial or open to doubt for them! They breathe and imbibe these two practices and institutions like the air. When will the West realize that jihad and sharia aren't radical, extremist, fundamentalist, or terrorist styles or versions of Islam -- they're just Islam?

When will the West understand that Osama and Nasrallah are folk heroes to practically the whole Muslim world? And that Muslims generally like 9/11? And that they usually enjoy and admire the London and Madrid and Mumbai train bombings, and all the other ghastly terrorist attacks on innocent Western civilians-at-play for the past 40 years? 

The great problem today is average, normal, and mainstream Muslims. They badly need to be attacked. We definitely need to learn to hate their guts. Westerners desperately need to identify them as the fascist-type, communist-type, Dark Age Christian-type, hugely irrational, stunningly illiberal monsters that they are. We need to hold mass rallies in New York, London, Montreal, Canberra, and Wellington morally condemning them, and publically reviling and loathing them.

The majority of all Muslims, everywhere on the planet, want to see mushroom clouds over America, England, and everywhere else decent. When will the West start to perceive this blazingly obvious reality? And when will we finally start to fight back?

One great place to begin is simply by telling the truth. No more depraved "great religion of peace hijacked" nonsense. We can begin our counterattack by properly and correctly identifying and explicating the Muslim philosophy and belief-system as it is -- openly and loudly.

Once this fundamentally inhuman evil is named and defined, we can follow up by laying waste to the leaderships and dictatorships of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Dubai, etc. which directly cause most of the worldwide problems. We can follow up this by seizing the Middle East oil and natural gas fields which they stole from us via nationalization, and which directly fund most of the worldwide problems.

After this we can terminate the dictatorships of Iraq and Afghanistan by writing them new and pro-freedom constitutions in which active sharia is outlawed and active jihadists are imprisoned. Finally we can at least cheer as Israel seeks to defeat its enemy Lebanon. We can urge them to force the Lebanese to halt their cross-border incursions and rocket-fire, until the jihadist Lebanese people are finally forced to surrender or be annihilated.

This simple program isn't by any means exhaustive. But it's a good start. When will George Bush and Tony Blair finally get to work? 


Post 1

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre wrote:

The great problem today is average, normal, and mainstream Muslims. They badly need to be attacked. We definitely need to learn to hate their guts. Westerners desperately need to identify them as the fascist-type, communist-type, Dark Age Christian-type, hugely irrational, stunningly illiberal monsters that they are. We need to hold mass rallies in New York, London, Montreal, Canberra, and Wellington morally condemning them, and publically reviling and loathing them.

Andre, this paragraph smacks of rant.  Perhaps you could point us to some concrete, empirical studies of Westernized Muslims that credibly support your claims of "average, normal, and mainstream Muslims [as] fascist-type, communist-type, Dark Age Christian-type, hugely irrational, stunningly illiberal monsters."  We could say the same about a small fraction of Western Christians, especially some of their vociferous leaders.  But I do not think we could make credible claims about "average, normal, and mainstream" Christians as such "monsters."

I oppose religion as militantly as you do.  But most Christians I know do not take Christianity that seriously.  They just wear the label as a badge of identity.  I just question how many Muslims in Western countries like the United States take Islam any more seriously than do Christians take Christianity.

You could well be right, in which case the facts justify your rage.  But some hard evidence would bolster your case.

Of course, if your passage referred only to those Muslims currently residing in Muslim theocracies as "average, normal, and mainstream," I could agree with your statement on its face.


Post 2

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I was hoping that this thread would be ignored. Luke, you broke the silence.

I do know a person who was in the World Trade Center. That is the closest effect that terrorism has had on me. I was also at a retreat which was attended by many foreigners when it happened. I had driven up there--thank goodness.

Of course, I don't really know who was responsible for 9/11. I only know what my "protectors" have told me. I can't be sure if that's true because they have lied about many other things.

I am, however, directly effected by other things. I am effected every time I see my money direct-deposited in my credit union. A large portion of the money that I have worked hard to earn is already gone. That money is taken by thieves who have no scruples, morals, or anything motivating them than their own thirst for power.

Whom should I be afraid of? Should I be afraid of some fanatics halfway around the world? Or, should I be afraid of a corrupt city that may want to take my property so it can be sold to Walmart? Should I be afraid of some goons who don't even want me to take bottled water onto an airplane?

I think the whole thing is a sham designed just to scare the people into surrendering more and more to a gang of corrupt and desperate men. Those contemptible men suffered a major defeat in Connecticut on Tuesday.

I think the point that Andre is trying to make (though very untactfully) is that the Islamic community needs to police itself. Not being Muslim and knowing very few of them, I can't really say what they are doing or not doing. But attacking the non-violent ones isn't going to help the situation.

Jordan's King Abdullah had this to say: "Over the past 100 years, Islam has been hijacked by fringe Muslim elements. We're trying to galvanize the silent majority to stand up and say, 'Enough is enough.'" While it's hardly an ideal, I think Jordan is one of the better nations over there. Their economic freedom is rated fairly well. They still have some work to do on civil liberties.

Amir, one of my best friends, was born in Iran and came here with his parents as an adolescent. He is one of the most benevolent people I know and probably couldn't kill a mosquito. But I think he may have demonstrated some of the problem in countries like Iran.

I met Amir when I was working on a good job with a company that also had Dan, the biggest a--hole I had ever worked with. Amir had actually worked under Dan for about two years. Everyone else (except the company owners) couldn't stand Dan, and several people had left the company because of Dan. But Amir just stayed and put up with that abuse. This was during the so-called tech boom (1996-1998). Amir probably could have found another job easily, but he just stayed and suffered.

In politics and in relations, people get what they are willing to put up with. America and Iran are ruled by goons and thugs because the people are willing to put up with them. Politics is largely the art of seeing what you can get away with.

In this sense, I think Karl Marx was right. Religion is a lull to get poeple into accepting injustice and bad leadership. Fundamentally, that is the problem with someone like my friend Amir. He is exactly the kind of person who would roll over and play dead if he did live in a dictatorship. The problem is that he is "too nice."

How do you get people to rise up and throw off their chains? I think Ayn Rand wondered the same thing when her sister visited her in the 1970's. But the only way to have a free world is to have a society of people who refuse to wear chains. If people are willing to be prey, the predators will find them.

If I find the solution, I will first employ it here. Then I will take it on the road.


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here's a rich cornucopia of surveys from Daniel Pipes about typical British Muslims. Additionally, a recent poll by the Beruit Society for Research and Information indicates 87% Of Lebanese favor Hezbollah over Israel in the current conflict, including 80% of Christians. Also: According to The Dunces of Doomsday by Paul L. Williams a secret CIA poll of educated Saudis says 95% of males between 21 and 45 support jihad and Al Qaeda. Similarly, Gallup says a majority of worldwide Muslims have an unfavorable opinion of the US.  A Pew survey in 2004 says 49% of Moroccans and 58% of Indonesians support bin Laden. Pew 2005 says 51% of Pakistanis and 60% of Jordanians have confidence in bin Laden. 46% of Pakistanis and a mere 11% of Jordanians oppose suicide atttacks upon America and the West. (All Dunces of Doomsday, 2006, WND Books, pages 19-20.

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 8/11, 10:09am)


Post 4

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
http://www.reason.com/rb/rb081106.shtml

Here are some numbers from Reason recently:

For example, in 2003 about 45,000 Americans died in motor accidents out of population of 291,000,000. So, according to the National Safety Council this means your one-year odds of dying in a car accident is about one out of 6500.

What about your chances of dying in an airplane crash? A one-year risk of one in 400,000 and one in 5,000 lifetime risk. What about walking across the street? A one-year risk of one in 48,500 and a lifetime risk of one in 625. Drowning? A one-year risk of one in 88,000 and a one in 1100 lifetime risk. In a fire? About the same risk as drowning. Murder? A one-year risk of one in 16,500 and a lifetime risk of one in 210. What about falling? Essentially the same as being murdered.

Flying is actually one of the safest things we do.

Chris


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Have you ever asked the reasons why those Muslims have an unfavorable opinion of the US government?

Does it have something to do with any of these things?

Support for Israel
Support for the Shah of Iran
Overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953
Coddling of Saddam Hussein in the 1980's
Aid to corrupt gangs in Egypt since the days of Anwar Sadat
Stationing troops in Saudi Arabia
Friendliness to an extremely contemptiable Saudi regime
Aid to a blood thirsty Turkish regime
Aid to the people who became the Taliban in the 1980's
Money to the Taliban to fight the "war on drugs"
Stationing troops in Lebanon in 1983

And what about these things (unrelated to the Middle East)?

Support for Francisco Franco in Spain
Support for dictators in South Vietnam
Support for Chaing Kai Shek (#4 mass murderer in the 20th century)
Support for Stalin in WW2
Selling out Eastern Europe to Stalin after WW2
Invasion of Panama because Noriega called Bush a "wimp"
Plan Colombia to fight the "war on drugs"
Dropping two atomic bombs
Involvement in the Yugoslavian mess in the 1990's
NATO expansion, even though the Iron Curtain is gone
Colonization of the Philippines
Colonization of Hawaii
Support for Aristide in Haiti and then supporting his removal
Cuban embargo

The USA has lost credibility just about everywhere. It's a poor salesman who blames his customers. If the USA can't sell its ideals, then they will need to adopt a new strategy.

When I was a child, I learned a simple lesson about bees: "Don't bother them, and they won't bother you." The only time I did get stung was basically when I did provoke the bee. Fortunately, it was by itself.

Once my dog stuck a nose into a bee colony and got stung a couple times. Fortunately he learned his lesson.

I suppose someone like Peikoff would say that simply avoiding bees is "appeasment." After all, a bee colony is a "dictatorship." He would probably say that I should drop a small nuclear weapon on them and wipe out the whole colony. Common sense tells me to stay way, and it's actually quite easy.

If you stick your nose into a beehive, you will get stung. For most rational people, the best strategy is to stay away.


Post 6

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It is in war that the State really comes into its own: swelling in power, in number, in pride, in absolute dominion over the economy and the society.
Murray Rothbard


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

To see how ONE Arab woman (formerly Syrian, now living in California) attacked Islamic fundamentalism on Al-Jazeera television view see this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAUcRA0Z2cs

Sam


Post 8

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Wow, Sam, that woman's passionate speech literally moved me to tears.  Few events ever do that to me.  Thanks for sharing.  We need about a million more like her.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/12, 7:43am)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That was an excellent clip.

One problem that came to me was her asserion that other's beliefs be respected.

This is unacceptable to me.  Christian and Muslim "beliefs" state that practitioners are to convert the non-believer.  How can that be respected?

Beliefs should stay where they were conceived; right in one's own mind.  Keep them to yourself .  Share your ideas about them if you have a willing audience.

The argument about "whose god" is passee.  Atheists must stand up and stop enabling bullies.  When I converse privately with devout Muslims, they are gobstopped when I tell them that I cannot believe in any supernatural God; that no longer is there any sense to the idea; except as a form of control, and power over others.

The clerics of all religions are bullies, the Muslims just happen to be on the front burner today.  Look back into history and see what Christians have done. Listening to Jews talk about being the chosen people inflames others.  All are at fault. 

Until the world's people learn to think rationally, religion must become a private matter.  The religious mafia will try to prevent that; but we atheists have to stand up and proclaim the facts. It's in our best interests.

Sharon

 


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ahh - but a religion wouldn't be a religion if private - it'd become a philosophy.....


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Most religions have succumed to different forms of authoritairans. Thomas Paine believed that Quakers were more benevolent and tolerant because they don't have any priests. They have no authorities.

I have seen that Wafa Sultan video many times. I love women freedom fighters, especially when they get really angry. She's so pissed off that it's quite entertaining. At least, Al Jazeera gave her air time. That alone should give us hope for this part of the world.

People need to speak up. Since the phony plot was uncovered Thursday, I have been quite vocal about my beliefs. I do still believe that it has all been staged. Only one person reacted negatively to this--my mother. It's as if these people aren't courageous enough to ask these questions. But when I encourage them, they speak up. Even my roommmate/landlord thinks that it's all fake, and he is ramp agent for Continental!

The last two days have actually increased my respect for the American people quite a bit. I think they are slowly waking up. Television, radio, and newspapers have told them lies. But we have the Internet now, and the greatest of all American traditions is flourishing again. Thanks to the Internet, everyone is his own small press.

Islam is going to become irrelevant. It's not going to happen overnight. We just have to be patient and let it happen. History tells us that religion often thrives on persecution or even the appearance of it. Feeding Christians to lions actually strengthened Christianity. Attacking Islam or any religion directly strengthens it. Attacking it indirectly or just leaving it alone will kill it.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence
of a God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas
Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.

That quote influenced my leaving the church more than anything. It's not anti-religion, but it's pro-reason. Jefferson was often called an atheist by the Puritan freaks in New England. Be positive.

If you think the only way to beat Islam is to fight it with violence, then you are implying that reason is on their side. It will take time, but it will happen. All corrupt systems must collapse. That doesn't mean it's immediate, but it will happen.

I don't proselytize much. I only do it when someone else is doing it in my vicinity. It doesn't do much good.

A lot of people in this movement have the attitude: "I am smarter than everyone who isn't Objectivist." Well, if you are so much smarter, why can't you get these people to agree with you? If you are smarter than they are, you should be able to convince them to your way. That's a learned skill, just like anything else. A poor salesman blames the customers.


 


Post 12

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Chris,

Those last two posts were great.  Thanks for the history. 

I was about to elaborate to Robert, that it was the practicing of one's beliefs that must be held in private. As in the way we agree that sexual practice rests primarily in the private domain.

Then you mention the salesman blaming the customers; as the poor workman who blames his tool(s); another sexual reference from the olden days.  lol

As I see it, most Objectivists do not feel compelled to spread the Gospel of Ayn Rand.  They have their own lives to live. Proselytizing is a luxury, for the retired or well-off, or the driven disciple.

As soon as a critical mass of thinking children emerges, Objectivists will have the fertile ground on which to cast their seeds. The future of Objectivism is with the young.  The Jesuits knew it; the Objectivists are a bit slow at catching on. The value of other people's children is not yet appreciated.

All sales today seem to focus on the short term.  Objectivists have not grown their egos sufficiently, to include all of humanity. Jesus was correct in this notion... what I do to others, I do to myself.

Sharon

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Be careful of what ye attribute to Jesues - much of 'his' words were edited in by others, to make a message of their choosing.... he was a Jew, preaching to Jews... period.  It was others who made him into a god, peddling a god's message...  and all gods' messages are the same, with their henchmen as their voices....  a philosophy, however, is by its nature, an individualist approach, which one 'preaches' to oneself, and enlightens to others, perchance.....

Post 14

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As I see it, most Objectivists do not feel compelled to spread the Gospel of Ayn Rand.  They have their own lives to live. Proselytizing is a luxury, for the retired or well-off, or the driven disciple.
Many of them do not. Many of the ones who do try to sell also do it very badly. A bad sales pitch is worse than none.

Bombing innocent people or even advocating it is generally an extremely bad sales pitch.


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 15

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes that clip of Wafa Sultan is excellent. I saw it months ago and I experienced the same emotion as Luke. Her words literally shook me! She reminded me of an Arabic Ayn Rand so to speak.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 16

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Chris:
Bombing innocent people or even advocating it is generally an extremely bad sales pitch.
You don't give me a handle as to which side of the conflict this is directed the Israelis or Hezbollah. I was astounded to see an interview by Wolfe Blitzer of the Israeli ambassador to the UN during which he baited the ambassador with the deaths of the children in in southern Lebanon. When the ambassador could get a word in he pointed out that it is Hezbollah that shoots rockets indiscriminately at towns in Israel whereas the Israelis target known Hezbollah rocket and radar sites that are concealed in civilian housing. Blitzer had no comment and went directly to a commercial. Such is the media bias.
Since the phony plot was uncovered Thursday ....
Again, are you referring to the planned bombing of the trans-Atlantic planes by British muslims? You have serious problems problems if you think this has been cooked up. Do you also think that the first moon landing was a hoax contrived for political propaganda?

Sam

 


Post 17

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Again, are you referring to the planned bombing of the trans-Atlantic planes by British muslims? You have serious problems problems if you think this has been cooked up. Do you also think that the first moon landing was a hoax contrived for political propaganda?
How do you know this stuff is true? This is coming from a bunch of people who are known liars--the British and American governments. Governments have done plenty of things like this in the past. I suppose you believe that Iraq also still has weapons of mass destruction hidden somewhere. It wouldn't be hard to stage something like this, and no harm was done by staging it. It happened two days after Leiberman got the boot in Connecticut.

On election day, some of these same types of people were saying that Joe Lieberman's web site was hacked. That wasn't true either. The Gulf of Tonkin incident was staged, too.


Post 18

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Huh? What did that have to do with Joe Lieberman?

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 It wouldn't be hard to stage something like this, and no harm was done by staging it. It happened two days after Leiberman got the boot in Connecticut.
Wow. The conspiracy deepens! Pakistan, Britain and the US all conspire to boost Joe Leiberman's ratings. Get help.

Sam


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.