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Post 0

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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Let's say you have a ship in free outer space (no massive objects near). You are flying forward at Newtonian speeds. You want to turn, but you always want to keep your ship's nose pointing in the same direction as your velocity vector. The thrusters that accelerate your ship laterally have a limited thrust (force). You have practically zero ship volume and strong torque thrusters.

Given:
mass of ship (m)
ship speed (v)
maximum horizontal force (f)

What is the maximum angle that the nose of your ship can rotate per second?

Post 1

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ship speed (v) in space -- when near no celestial bodies (ie. microgravity) -- shouldn't count at all; so Newtonian mechanics prevail here ...

F = M x A

"[T]he maximum angle that the nose of your ship can rotate per second" is equivalent to the angular velocity of the nose of the ship moving laterally at the speed of light.

Just sayin',

Ed


Post 2

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 5:32amSanction this postReply
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Hint: The problem has nothing to do with the speed of light. : P u n k

Post 3

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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f /(mv)

Post 4

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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I've been punked (unless : P u n k is a clue).

Glenn, how come it's the force divided by the momentum?

Ignoring the forward travel that would be happening, wouldn't lateral force act on the ship the same as if it were motionless (causing the same rotational acceleration in the same time frame -- only with lots of forward travel occuring while this turning is going on)?

Ed


Post 5

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Ed asked:
how come it's the force divided by the momentum?
Dimensional analysis, Ed.  Just kidding. 
If you figure out what the maximum rate of change of direction of the ship is, you get f / (mv).  This must also be the rate at which the ship must rotate in order "to keep your ship's nose pointing in the same direction as your velocity vector".
Thanks,
Glenn


Post 6

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Another way to look at the problem: if the force f is always "horizontal" (i.e., perpendicular to the direction of motion) and constant, the ship will move in a circle with a constant speed v.  The angular frequency of motion around the circle is given by:
omega = f / (mv).  The ship must rotate at the same angular velocity in order to always point in the same direction it's moving.

P.S. Ed, The answer is force divided by momentum because we're only interested in the rate of change in direction.  Since force is the rate of change of momentum, and the momentum is only changing direction (not magnitude), you divide out the magnitude of the momentum.

Glenn

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 6/06, 11:43am)


Post 7

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Glenn.

Ed
[not a rocket scientist -- but interested]


Post 8

Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 4:55pmSanction this postReply
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Very well Medical Physicist Glenn.

The torque thrusters have to slowly turn your ship. They are not relevant in the solution's equation, but necessary to make the ship do the loop. After your turn the ship a little bit, some of the force from your horizontal thruster start to take some speed off of the original "forward" velocity.

f/(mv) is in units of revolutions per second.
360f/(mv) is in units of degrees per second.

Post 9

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 10:02pmSanction this postReply
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There are a few things missing here. Torque thrusters alone will not change the velocity vector, they will only rotate the ship. Because you want to turn as well, you need to have a rear thruster.

Conservation of angular momentum will not change the velocity vector because the torque thrusters will be ejecting mass from the rocket. So as the rocket rotates clockwise with angular momentum, the ejected mass is rotating counter-clockwise with the same angular momentum.

As the rocket is losing mass, it will rotate faster and faster as the thrusters continue to burn. So they must be reduced in intensity as the flight continues.

Because of the loss of mass, the ship will be decelerating and the rear thruster must compensate to keep the velocity magnitude the same and turn the ship in a circle. It's been a long, long time since I've done the math but here's the beginnings:

p = mv

conservation of momentum
0 = dp/dt = d(mv)/dt = mdv/dt + vdm/dt
dv/dt = -(v/m)(dm/dt) = a = F/m
F = -vdm/dt is the decelerating force, so
the rear thruster must exert force vdm/dt

dM = quantum of mass ejected rearwards
2dMt = quantum of mass ejected by the two torque thrusters
dm = dM + 2dMt

To turn in a circle of radius R it will have angular frequency w = v/2piR

Now there's the moment of inertia business which I've totally forgotten. But that's probably why you said there was practically no ship volume.

Well, it was fun, anyway :-)

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