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Post 20

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 4:18amSanction this postReply
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Michael M

"No animal is born tabula rasa. Chicks perceive the hen through the shell."

[sigh] Yes, and human babies experience sensation through the womb. What's that got to do with the Lockean or Randian (the sense in which I mean it) conception of tabula rasa?

The reference is to ideas, concepts, etc. not random and vague sensations. Since the concept of tabula rasa, that being: a clean slate, that is filled in by experience and observation, ie, empirical discovery, this statement is a bit weak:

"Anyway, tabula rasa is a construct, not an empirical fact."

Ross

Post 21

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Ross,

Sorry about the presumption on your teaching experience.

You still did not address my question, though. I never did deny that there are many factors in developing a mind. You did. You claim that innate capacity (differing abilities to learn, not the subject learned) does not exist and is not one of these factors.

It is.

Why do you say it isn't a factor? Saying that other factors exist is not good enough, since they do not contradict this factor.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/05, 2:36pm)


Post 22

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ross,

I also apologize for insinuating that you had no/little teaching experience. However, I'm not familiar with Montessori schools and how they recruit students. One of the "lovely" things about teaching in the public school system is that you get *all* kinds of students - the schools must accommodate students with all kinds of backgrounds and abilities.

You wrote:

"I didn't say that nurture was the only factor, I said it was a strong factor, and I can assure you that of the hundreds of students that passed through my hands, those that had the most difficulty learning were those who came from difficult environments. Many of them still write to me and let me know how they're doing.

My views come from personal experience and until someone equally qualified can show me that environment is not the decisive factor in a person's ability to think and learn coherently, I'll take conjecture and supposition under advisement."

I think that breaking down the whole issue to my satisfaction would take me forever. However, there are few things of note here:

1) Given the complexity of the subject matter (educational achievement and mental ability), there is rarely a *decisive* factor in a person's ability to think and learn coherently, and even claiming this or that is a decisive factor will be a result of analyzing groups of individuals. A fairly detailed comparison and contrast will simply reveal that the variance in observed achievement/ability will be related to this or that factor more strongly.

For example, in this paradigm, it makes no sense to say that Ayn Rand was a good novelist because she read Aristotle or because she was a great thinker etc. However, given a sample of individuals we want to look at, we could say that what differentiates Ayn Rand (and individuals like her who were good novelists) from another set might be that Ayn Rand and those like her read Aristotle, were good thinkers etc. At best, we might be arguing that the fountain of many of Ayn Rand's thoughts might be her study of Aristotle - but when that is applied to something like "the environment", we need to be clear what part of "the environment" we are referring to.

2) It is possible for environment to be relatively decisive in some contexts and for nature to be relatively decisive in other contexts. If you want to understand the paradigm within which these experiments about the relative effect or nurture/nature are analyzed, you can read about behavioral/quantitative genetics and the pioneering work of Sir Ronald Fisher.

Therefore, it is just as important that you specify the population sample to which you are applying your claims about nurture trumping nature as it is that you specify what aspects of nurture you think are decisive.

3) There is a real distinction between mental ability and educational achievement. Both are often correlated, but not perfectly so.

Cheers,

Laj.

Post 23

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ross, you wrote in Post 10 in this thread: "If a person is born tabula rasa, having no innate ideas, but only a potential, then that potential can only be realised through environment, that is, through learning."

You seem to believe that people are born tabula rasa.  Now you grant that they are not, but that environment is more important than heredity.  I agree that environment can be more important than heredity. 

Like you, I have some experience teaching children, and I am a parent.


 


Post 24

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Unless I am reading this thread half-heartedly, there seems to be a false dichotomy here.  The fact that man is born tabula rasa does mean that we can't be born with different abilities to write on that tablet.

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Post 25

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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My understanding of what Rand meant by tabula rasa was that man had no innate ideas. Certainly he has certain reflexes and differing physical and mental (ie, brain) structures and capacities, but that is a very different thing from innate concepts.

Post 26

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ugh Pasotto.... I've been sanctioning almost every post you've made in the last week.  Something must be wrong :)

 - Jason


Post 27

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Thanks.

Post 28

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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To try and finalise my position on this...

I have contended that environment is a strong factor and in many cases, the determining factor in the development of intelligence, that is, the ability to isolate and integrate abstractions. I don't hold that intelligence, as an *ability*, is part of man's natural disposition, I believe it is developed through learning and experience.

It follows that since man has a cognitive *potential* but lacks innate ideas or concepts [read:tabula rasa] that the ability to integrate abstractions, ie. exercise cognition or *intelligence*, is essentially dependent on environment, learning, experience, etc.

I think that's pretty clear and that's where I'm leaving it.

Ross



Post 29

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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Rick:

"My understanding of what Rand meant by tabula rasa was that man had no innate ideas... a very different thing from innate concepts."

Rand believed that at birth man's cognitive mechanism, while present, was tabula rasa, that is: blank. She also held that he had no innate ideas. Therefore, she held that he had neither innate ideas *or* concepts (since cognition is required to form concepts). She also held that concept-formation was dependent on observation.

As far as I'm concerned, that is all perfectly reasonable and that's why I hold that the ability of intelligence is strongly dependent on post-natal and not prenatal factors.

Further, that is why I mentioned Montessori. She observed and concluded that a child, through a process of observation, trial & error, etc. disassembles concretes, that is, the world around them, and isolates the essentials, that is, the abstractions. Later, as older children & adults we use these abstractions in reverse to make sense of the concrete world.

This is a *learned* process and Montessori based her didactic methods upon this. Her didactic apparatus were based upon the idea that sense information is translated into abstractions through interaction with the environment.

Rand, somewhere, cites Montessori. The link was that clear.

Ross







Post 30

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 1:43amSanction this postReply
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Ross,

Still sounds like you are saying all humans are born mentally equal.

Sort of like saying that they are all born 5 feet 10 inches.

Egalitarian biology.

You admit the possibility that a person can be born with a deficiency, like mental retardation, but not with genius for learning.

You got a thing for the mentally deficient that you don't have for geniuses?

And, you still didn't answer my question.

Michael



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Post 31

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 4:18amSanction this postReply
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Ross,

It follows that since man has a cognitive *potential* but lacks innate ideas or concepts [read:tabula rasa] that the ability to integrate abstractions, ie. exercise cognition or *intelligence*, is essentially dependent on environment, learning, experience, etc.


The evidence that differences in the ability to reason logically - what you call "exercise cognition or *intelligence*" - have a partially genetic basis is overwhelming.

It's all well and good to hold your position. All I'm asking you is how seriously you've investigated the opposition's position.  That's my problem with people who use philosophy to resolve scientific disputes.

Laj.

(Edited by Abolaji Ogunshola on 9/06, 10:00am)


Post 32

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Abollaji Ogunshola wrote: "The evidence that differences in the ability to reason logically - what you call "exercise cognition or *intelligence*" - have a partially genetic basis is overwhelming."
That is the main link in the Topic here on "The Inequality Taboo."  One point made in that article by Charles Murray is that attempts to deny the genetic component of g have produced a better understanding of intelligence, or rather of intelligences.  Humans have a range of different kinds of thinkings that enable some to solve a problem one way, and others to solve it another -- even as some may never solve it all.

One of the common exercises I know is the problem of measuring the height of a building using a barometer. 

Another classic is to connect these five points with four straight lines.


                                                        (*)


                           (*)                                               ( *)




                           ( *)                                               (*)


Post 33

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 4:55pmSanction this postReply
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I was either born or have been working hard at becoming stupid. I don’t understand the challenge!

Or, I must understand it incorrectly. I appear able to do it with only three lines.

Define, “connect.”

Post 34

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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The least strict meaning yields a solution with three lines. The strictest, ten lines. There are two solutions with four lines and they end up looking like an X with a “less than” or a “greater than” on top:

>
X


And,


<
X


Post 35

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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And if that’s not right, if this turns out be another damn riddle, if the solution is not obtainable on screen, but it is on paper, due to the foldability of paper, making “straight” what are not straight lines—I’ll be on the phone all night with Phil. And even that might not be enough.

Post 36

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Jon - top to lower right, then to upper left, across, then to lower left...


Post 37

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Going back to the debate—was I born stupid or did I work hard on becoming this way?

Nice solution. I never considered limiting myself to not lifting the pencil.

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Post 38

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Well?

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