Is Paganism consistent with Objectivist principles?

Jess,

Welcome! Are you talking about the album or the song? I listened to the song again and I don't make the pagan connection.

Sarah

Post 21

Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 5:43pm

I too am very familiar with Rush, and not aware of any pagan connection. Please elaborate.

Post 22

Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 9:32am

Jessica-

(P.S., I'm surprised no one has mentioned Rush for Pagan/Ayn Rand syntheses).

I believe there has been a fair amount of work done on that...who is it...I know them from forums...

Post 23

Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 2:19pm

Wow, one more reason to like the people on SOLOHQ.

Robert - thanks for the spiritualvisualizer link, I may be too ignorant to figure it out - there's lead lines, but I wasn't able to access full text.

Daniel - will definitely check out "Sexual Personae."

Num++ - I plead exempt! My experiences fueling my actions with unsubstantiated faith, or faith based on the fear of force, have been empty, abusive, and a waste of time. By the way, I haven't actually done gang rapping - is that where everyone talks at once? ;)

Ethan - see, yes, exactly, how do you explain the Maine woods. It's not just "oh this is so peaceful." I forgot you had done re-enactments in England. I think I mentioned that I'm part of a Celtic Pagan tribe that does Stuff and goes to SCA events, though I'm not a member. I didn't know you fought with raw steel, you MANIAC. The one time I fought with metal, get this, in Ireland, my group was Bronze Age, theirs was Iron, and I clashed with my bronze short sword made by a friend from a sand-casted mold. The iron swords took little notches out of my stone-sharpened sword, evidence and an example of how and why iron prevailed. If I was hit any harder, my sword would have cracked in two. In Ireland fairies "hate iron," perhaps one can forensically identify the "sorrow mark" of the invasions, as it appears in the mythology.

Sarah - hello! It's definitely not benign . . . ;)

Duncan - awesome post, thank-you. It's good to have someone spell that it out, and I appreciate your kind words.

Jess - Hi Beautiful Woman!

Sharon - I love "Objectivists as Pantheists," I'm going to do the "head work" around that and see what I think. I haven't even really gone as far as "worship", since I always identify that with emptying oneself, but what a thought:

Is there something heinous about worshipping that which cannot be disobeyed without peril?

I'll work on my definition of worship. Some of my friends invented a goddess named Asphaltia, who is your protector in traffic. It was started as a joke, but I thought it was a great idea. Rites to her include checking your fluids, getting regular tune-ups, and staying alert on the highway.

To all forms of riches!

Julia

Post 24

Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 8:17pm

Julia,

Maniac? Guilty as charged! While reenacting the Battle of Tewksbury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tewkesbury I suffered massive bruises to both legs and a cracked rib after being struck full force with a blunted steel-tipped spear and then having my unit retreat over my prone body. I also lost half of a front tooth when one of the real nut jobs in my unit bashed me in the face with his shield during a prcatice spar.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 7/02, 8:23pm)

Post 25

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 12:02pm

Oopsie.... meant gangsta' rap. Obviously, I don't rap. Of course, don't let anybody put your sense of life down - that's a hallmark of the second-hander (they don't have any, so they'll leech yours - and they look for targets plump in this regard).

Post 26

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 1:20pm

Num++

You said

Of course, don't let anybody put your sense of life down - that's a hallmark of the second-hander (they don't have any, so they'll leech yours - and they look for targets plump in this regard).

I don't think we can say this on this site too many times. Yes, yes, yes!

Ethan,

Right on, and it was so wonderful you'll remember it the rest of your life?

-Julia

Post 27

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 8:03pm

Remember it? Hell yes, more than any other battle i was in :-)

Ethan

Post 28

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:15am

Julia,

Hello Beautiful Woman.

(Maybe I should say "person" so people won't think I am flirting, but that just doesn't sound primeval enough. So "woman" it is.)

I skimmed this thread and I am going to read it in more detail. I think what you are touching on goes way beyond Paganism.

One of the lacks I have noticed with Objectivism is that there is a whole area of human experience that is completely ignored - the religious experience. I am presently gathering material for an article on this.

For example, if people the world over pray, even of it is to a God of some sort that is denied by reason (there certainly are many flavors), doesn't this point toward a universal human need being served by a practice? I think that something to fill that need Objectivism-wise would be a wonderful idea.

Ayn Rand actually started the ball rolling by her discussion of art and her magnificent fiction. Still, I think this area is really sketchy and there is room for a lot of good work to be done.

If you are served well by some of the rituals you described, my own inclination is to tell you to keep on - except try to see what really is being served inside yourself and see where a reason/sense of life orientation can be used to get similar satisfaction.

I would greatly appreciate feedback on this. I think it is one of the most important "silent" issues that need to be dealt with in Objectivism.

Shine on and shine brightly.

Michael

Post 29

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:59am

Ethan,

"While reenacting the Battle of Tewksbury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tewkesbury I suffered massive bruises to both legs and a cracked rib after being struck full force with a blunted steel-tipped spear and then having my unit retreat over my prone body."

I love this image! I spent my twenties competing in open Karate tournaments in California. Nothing has given me more focus and exhilaration since then. I absolutely loved it. I broke my leg in one tournament in 1973 and I still remember every detail and every thought leading up to that point. And everything that happened for several hours afterwards. My only regret was missing the finals and seeing Joe Lewis and Steve Sanders. We had to fight in crummy gyms and auditoriums. It would have to be much better to be outside where you guys are. Enjoy it as long as you can.

Post 30

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 12:41pm

Mike, no pleading off because of age! (If that's what you were doing). I'm embarking on a second dance career in my 40s.

MSK - thanks for the encouragement. I agree, it's the new frontier. I actually don't pray, because I hold myself as the Queen of my life, and fully responsible for my own happiness. Alright, if I DO pray, it's because I'm completely desperate. I can count the number of prayers on one hand over the last 15 years. All of my prayers have been richly rewarded, but I explain it to myself thinking that I was addressing a high and deep part of myself that I normally can't access. Kind of like when a child in front of you gets stuck in an elevator door. It's more than adrenaline.

Does that make the high and deep part of myself any the less goddeses-like? No! And that is where I'm probably headed. The mythology helps me understand how precious I am. The gods, they are also us.

Post 31

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 12:55pm

Julia,

Do pagans jump over sky-rockets on July the Fourth? ;-)

The mythology helps me understand how precious I am.

What mythology would that be?

Do Objectivism and Paganism have different or common fundamentals of attraction for you?

Post 32

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 1:03pm

My favorite book on religion is...

Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer.

No points for guessing that if you know the debt my philosophical positions hold to evolutionary theory.

For me, the book resolved a lot of my problems with religious belief, and I've simultaneously become far more atheist and far more sympathetic towards religion. I don't recommend the book to Objectivists because I often feel that Objectivists aren't fans of experimental psychology and evolutionary theory. For me, however, the book was an eye opener.

The book tries to explain religion as a result of some of the faculties of the human mind, faculties illuminated by evolutionary psychology, being used in interesting ways.

Laj.

Post 33

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 1:21pm

In terms of the spiritual, as an aspect of reality, have been exploring that in my blog, www.thespiritualvisualizer.blogspot.com/ ... but - to understand where this begins, and the paths, as an artist, this has led me, it is necessary to begin at the beginning of the blog, and work the way up... there is, of course, much more to go in this, as it is the working out for my second manuscript, "Real World Spirituality", in which is explored the whole avenue of what has been termed exaltationist experiences, but which - as Rand pointed out - were expropriated by religion and attributed to supernatural causes... much of what has been accepted as normal, even thru secular eyes, actually can properly be attributed to the ethics of Otherism,which had inculcated a lacking of self-esteem as a primary, so as to be able to induce the perpetuation of the Otist system of slavery, no matter what form that appeared in, nor how acceptable some of those forms still are... indeed, some of those blog comments can be extended into whole chapters on their own - and eventually will be...

Post 34

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 2:08pm

"Mike, no pleading off because of age!"

Ha! I guess I was. Is it ok to beg off due to a career? Lately I enjoy doing circuit simulations. To say nothing of knee surgery, possible brain damage and I'm going to be 57 next month. I enjoy a good game of table tennis once in a while, I love hiking and running and an occasional bit of hard work outside. I guess that will do.
(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 7/04, 2:47pm)

Post 35

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 4:08pm