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Post 100

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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>Jeff:Perhaps I missed it but, could you deductively demonstrate the/a deductive justification for deductive logic -- without circularity, of course?

and likewise..

>Nathan: What I am pointing out is that DEDUCTION is subject to the selfsame criticism you would level at INDUCTION.

Sadly, no.

But before you take my deductive word for it, let's turn to some observational evidence. In the Wikipedia's section "the problem of induction" we note that there is no related link saying "see also: the problem of deduction". Indeed, doing a general search of the Wiki, one does not find any heading for "the problem of deduction" , nor does any other encylopedia I know of describe a parallel problem. This accumulation of evidence should be enough for the dedicated inductivist to conclude that perhaps such a problem does not exist....;-)

And indeed it does not. The issue is simply that the truth of logic is demonstrated simply by an appeal to the principles of logic. Thus it is *internally consistent*. However, the truth of induction - which is a theory about discovering truth through experience - *cannot* be appealed to by experience. That's the whole point. Thus it is internally inconsistent, and can be justified by neither logic *nor* experience.

But old habits die hard, and our inbuilt *need* for regularities, even when they don't really exist, or break down before our very eyes, has compelled all kinds of odd defences of the habit of making inductive assumptions. Bertrand Russell attempted a last ditch save in his "History of Western Philosophy" by suggesting (deductively) that it was some kind of free-standing type of logic that needed neither typical logic nor experience to justify it. But he was honest enough to admit the implication of this ie: that anyone and his dog might make the same kind of claim about *their* particular belief. Indeed, one could view this passage of Russell's as the unintentional enshrinement of of induction as a mystical belief, "self evident" in the same sense that it is "self evident" that a higher being created the universe.

As to Nathan's "axiomatic" approach; to me it breaks down on several levels.
1) His axiom is a synthetic statement, thus is quite possibly untrue (of course I believe it is true too. But I do not regard the fact that I, Daniel Barnes, am experiencing a strong conviction that this is true, makes this statement "self-evident" in any objective way!)
2) His first premise is just a definition of order ie an order is something that occurs more than once.
3) His second premise does not follow from his first assumption, in that the order he 'perceives' might have no more connection with an existing order than a conspiracy theorist's.
4) Even if we include his second premise in his conclusion, this order has no more likelihood of continuing than the conspiracy theorist's imaginary one.

Finally, if we are going to start treating synthetic statements as axiomatically valid, why not just *axiomatise your conclusion* and have done with it?
Axiom: The order I perceive is likely to continue.
Save yourself three steps!

Of course, none of this touches on the other problems of induction, such as the paradoxical idea that theories follow observations, or the problem of even forming a *specific* principle of induction, let alone a logically valid one. And of course there's Popper's final, devastating point that even if such a principle is formed in the loosest possible way, it is almost certain to be inductively invalid.

Hopefully that's covered off the remaining issues on the logical issue, at least for now. But it is a large topic, so a long thread always threatens....

regards
Daniel









Post 101

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:


  • Screaming at the children angers them. Angry children are sometimes vindictive and vandalous. My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism."

    Both are statements about screaming as the "cause" of broken windows. But clearly the more substantive one is that which posits a chain of deduction as to actual causal mechanism, not just a sequence
  • I don't see a deductive chain in either example. Are you sure you want to be talking about deduction here?
  • Sure. It's there. Just because I didn't organize it in the form of a syllogism doesn't mean it's not deductive.

    But one cannot escape INduction in DEductive reasoning, or vice versa, when all the implicit premises are made explicit. So we should avoid being terribly reductionistic about this stuff, as I mentioned.

    But if you think I'm mistaken about something here, please feel free to point it out

    NH


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    Post 102

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel,
    Clearly you and I have very different views of what 'truth' is. If deduction doesn't rest on experience it is no more true than induction.
    Of course, you are free to use the auditory-visual symbol 'true' to mean something other than correspondance to reality. Likely, you do.

    But then you are merely stipulating that by 'true' you simply mean 'internally consistent'. Unfortunately, then, discussions of logic become merely parlor games, rather than investigations into human awareness and how it discovers what is real and differentiates that from what is unreal.

    I strongly suspect there is little possibility of either of us influencing the other in the slightest in this discussion, but I'm willing to leave that open in the name of optimism.


    Post 103

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel:

    >Jeff:Perhaps I missed it but, could you deductively demonstrate the/a deductive justification for deductive logic -- without circularity, of course?

    and likewise..

    >Nathan: What I am pointing out is that DEDUCTION is subject to the selfsame criticism you would level at INDUCTION.

    Sadly, no.

    But before you take my deductive word for it, let's turn to some observational evidence. In the Wikipedia's section "the problem of induction" we note that there is no related link saying "see also: the problem of deduction".

    Sorry, Daniel. That's invoking the fallacy of argument from authority or an inverse argumentum ad populum. Before Hume, to my knowledge, nobody spoke of the "problem of induction." But now they do. What appears, or doesn't, in a reference work, is not logical evidence.
    Indeed, doing a general search of the Wiki, one does not find any heading for "the problem of deduction" , nor does any other encylopedia I know of describe a parallel problem. This accumulation of evidence should be enough for the dedicated inductivist to conclude that perhaps such a problem does not exist....;-)
    Nope. You're not off the hook.

    Jeff and I both put it to you: Is not DEduction subject to the same criticism you're leveling at INduction, namely that it cannot be "justified" without circuitous reasoning?

    'Nobody else says so' is not evidence.

    If Nathan Hawking were the first (which is doubtful) to ever draw attention to this, it would be no less valid a challenge than Hume's, if HE were the first to bring up the alleged problem of induction.
    And indeed it does not. The issue is simply that the truth of logic is demonstrated simply by an appeal to the principles of logic. Thus it is *internally consistent*.
    But that's the very criticism you're leveling against induction, that it is not "justified" by an appeal to induction. If logic justifies logic, why can't induction justify induction?

    You just keep making the proclamation, without recourse to actual reasoning.
    However, the truth of induction - which is a theory about discovering truth through experience - *cannot* be appealed to by experience. That's the whole point. Thus it is internally inconsistent, and can be justified by neither logic *nor* experience.
    Nah.

    ...
    Indeed, one could view this passage of Russell's as the unintentional enshrinement of of induction as a mystical belief, "self evident" in the same sense that it is "self evident" that a higher being created the universe.
    And self-evident in the way you're claiming for deductive logic?

    As to Nathan's "axiomatic" approach; to me it breaks down on several levels.

    1) His axiom is a synthetic statement, thus is quite possibly untrue (of course I believe it is true too. But I do not regard the fact that I, Daniel Barnes, am experiencing a strong conviction that this is true, makes this statement "self-evident" in any objective way!)



    Yet you fail to state your axioms for deduction.

    If you study the nature of axioms as they are normally used - and state of few of your own - you'll discover that mine are not self-disqualifying.
    2) His first premise is just a definition of order ie an order is something that occurs more than once.
    And the problem with that is...?
    3) His second premise does not follow from his first assumption, in that the order he 'perceives' might have no more connection with an existing order than a conspiracy theorist's.
    Nonsense. Induction is a psychological process. We cannot describe the thinking which gives rise to it without describing the assumptions in that thinking.

    "Might have no ... connection" is beside the point. The fact is that when we use induction we DO ASSUME an objective referent to the pattern we perceive. This possibility MUST exist for induction to get off the ground. What we mentally DO with that inductive belief after that point is another issue.
    4) Even if we include his second premise in his conclusion, this order has no more likelihood of continuing than the conspiracy theorist's imaginary one.
    What you apparently just said is that no apparent order is any more likely of having an objective referent than any other apparent order.

    You may wish to rethink that, as it is clearly mistaken.
    Finally, if we are going to start treating synthetic statements as axiomatically valid, why not just *axiomatise your conclusion* and have done with it?

    Axiom: The order I perceive is likely to continue.
    Save yourself three steps!

    If you think about the difference between axioms and statements which derive from them, you can probably answer that yourself.

    Ask the same question about the axioms of deduction and its rules of inference, and the conclusions one derives from these - why not just axiomatize the conclusions? 
    Of course, none of this touches on the other problems of induction, such as the paradoxical idea that theories follow observations, or the problem of even forming a *specific* principle of induction, let alone a logically valid one. And of course there's Popper's final, devastating point that even if such a principle is formed in the loosest possible way, it is almost certain to be inductively invalid.
    For all this talk of Popper's "solution," Daniel, all you've presented so far is "falsification." Again, is that it?

    Nathan Hawking


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    Post 104

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel wrote:
    >>This accumulation of evidence should be enough for the dedicated inductivist to conclude that perhaps such a problem does not exist....;-)

    Nathan replied:
    >Sorry, Daniel. That's invoking the fallacy of argument from authority or an inverse argumentum ad populum.

    I thought this was pretty obviously tongue in cheek, but never mind!

    Nathan:
    >Nope. You're not off the hook. Jeff and I both put it to you: Is not DEduction subject to the same criticism you're leveling at INduction, namely that it cannot be "justified" without circuitous reasoning?

    Nathan, it would really help your case if you read replies in full before peppering off the cuff responses to them. For I explain why *in the very next para*!!

    Nathan:
    >You just keep making the proclamation, without recourse to actual reasoning.

    ...and when I *do* show you the reason why they're different in said para, as clearly and simply as I can, what is your reasoned rebuttal to it? This:

    Nathan:
    >Nah.

    "Nah."? "Nah???" That's as good as it gets - just "Nah." I wonder then why we need alleged "axioms of order" when we can just have "Nah"!?

    Personally, I cannot see much in your subsequent criticism that is much better. Bottom line, if you really believe that the "problem of induction" doesn't exist, or if it does, that it exists equally for deduction, who am I to persuade you otherwise?

    Obviously you have never even heard of this famous, yet complex problem before ( see your post 196- "Concepts and Percepts") which is why I bothered to outline it in the first place. This is rather like saying "What? You're saying there's a mind-body problem? Wow, who knew?" And yet, from knowing nothing about it, you now consider you've either solved it or refuted it. Frankly, from what I'm reading, I can't help thinking that you simply just *don't get it*.

    Perhaps the fault is in my explanations, which obviously aren't clear enough. In which case I encourage you to investigate the matter for yourself. If you're sure you've got it right, well, let people know about it! If you really *have* solved it, your philosophic fame - and probably fortune too - will be assured. You will be one of the most famous philosophers of the past 200 years.

    >For all this talk of Popper's "solution," Daniel, all you've presented so far is "falsification." Again, is that it?

    Really, is there much point in me explaining Popper's solution if you don't accept there is a problem in the first place?

    - Daniel




    Post 105

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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    Jeff:

    Good post. I gave it three Tired Globe Guys.

    Clearly you and I have very different views of what 'truth' is. If deduction doesn't rest on experience it is no more true than induction. Of course, you are free to use the auditory-visual symbol 'true' to mean something other than correspondance to reality. Likely, you do.

    But then you are merely stipulating that by 'true' you simply mean 'internally consistent'. Unfortunately, then, discussions of logic become merely parlor games, rather than investigations into human awareness and how it discovers what is real and differentiates that from what is unreal.

    I strongly suspect there is little possibility of either of us influencing the other in the slightest in this discussion, but I'm willing to leave that open in the name of optimism.
    You and I may differ on the aspect of certitude, but we agree that our knowledge has actual referents in objective reality.

    For that matter, our positions are only .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001% apart. Not much, in the general scheme of things. LOL

    Speaking of Tired Globe Guy points, when one does a mouse hover over the post's little guy icons in the info bar, it says something like: "Sanctions: 3, No sanctions: 0."

    Anyone know what that no-sanctions bit is all about?

    Nathan

     


    Post 106

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel:

    Daniel wrote:
    >>This accumulation of evidence should be enough for the dedicated inductivist to conclude that perhaps such a problem does not exist....;-)

    Nathan replied:
    >Sorry, Daniel. That's invoking the fallacy of argument from authority or an inverse argumentum ad populum.

    I thought this was pretty obviously tongue in cheek, but never mind!
    Daniel, when people argue seriously that "there is only one future" but that we nevertheless still have freedom or choice or volition, I will NEVER assume that ANY argument is not serious.

    Can you blame me?

    Nathan:
    >Nope. You're not off the hook. Jeff and I both put it to you: Is not DEduction subject to the same criticism you're leveling at INduction, namely that it cannot be "justified" without circuitous reasoning?

    Nathan, it would really help your case if you read replies in full before peppering off the cuff responses to them. For I explain why *in the very next para*!!

    Nathan:
    >You just keep making the proclamation, without recourse to actual reasoning.

    ...and when I *do* show you the reason why they're different in said para, as clearly and simply as I can, what is your reasoned rebuttal to it? This:

    Nathan:
    >Nah.

    Yes. That's because you present no actual argument that I can discern. You simply restate your belief, to wit:
    Daniel wrote:
    The issue is simply that the truth of logic is demonstrated simply by an appeal to the principles of logic. Thus it is *internally consistent*. However, the truth of induction - which is a theory about discovering truth through experience - *cannot* be appealed to by experience. That's the whole point. Thus it is internally inconsistent, and can be justified by neither logic *nor* experience.
     
    Basically, you are simply saying "does too" and "does not."

    You simply HAVE NOT addressed the issue Jeff and I raised. Just restating one's position does not constitute argument.

    ["You don't get it" argument snipped.]
    Perhaps the fault is in my explanations, which obviously aren't clear enough.
    That's one possible explanation. Another is that I'm dense. Yet another is that you're wrong.

    >For all this talk of Popper's "solution," Daniel, all you've presented so far is "falsification." Again, is that it?

    Really, is there much point in me explaining Popper's solution if you don't accept there is a problem in the first place?
    How difficult could it be it present a brief outline of what you see as HIS solution? You refer to it repeatedly, and I've asked repeated that you summarize it.

    I've summarized my solution. Why won't you present his?

    Nathan Hawking


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    Post 107

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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    Nathan,
    Sure. It's there. Just because I didn't organize it in the form of a syllogism doesn't mean it's not deductive.
    The conclusion must be 100% certain as drawn from the premises for your argument to be deductive. Your conclusion was, "My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism." (Emphasis mine). "Probably" denotes some level of certainty that's not 100%. Therefore, your argument is not deductive.

    Also, I don't think there's a "problem of deduction" because deduction is, in my view, derived from irrefutable, inescapable, omnipresent propositions -- i.e., axioms (as Objectivists use the term). I'm not even sure if "derived from" is the right terminology. It might make more sense to say that deduction is just a rearrangement or application of axioms. Induction doesn't have this advantage. Inductive conclusions are, by their very nature, uncertain, so no matter how hard you try, you won't be able to patch induction with "axioms" and still have it be induction.

    To be sure, induction's uncertainty bugs me, but not too much, because (and here's where Daniel and I disagree) induction has worked well in the past, so inductively I can say that it'll probably work well in the future. This is not a logical justification; it's more an appeal to utility. But let me quickly qualify this appeal by saying that induction, though probably necessary for advancing theories theories, is not sufficient for doing so.  

    I'm sleepy, so I'm not sure if this came out as intended.

    -Jordan


    Post 108

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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    Nathan:
    >Daniel, when people argue seriously that "there is only one future" but that we nevertheless still have freedom or choice or volition, I will NEVER assume that ANY argument is not serious.

    Can I ask what this has to do with the problem of induction?

    >That's one possible explanation. Another is that I'm dense. Yet another is that you're wrong.

    Here's another possibility: you're not dense, but you're just not getting it fully yet because you only found out about the problem 5 minutes ago!

    >How difficult could it be it present a brief outline of what you see as HIS solution? You refer to it repeatedly, and I've asked repeated that you summarize it.

    Well, because I keep having to explain - obviously inadequately - *what the problem is* before there is any point in explaining Popper's solution. But when I do, you insist doggedly that the problem doesn't even exist, and that I'm wrong! So it is hardly suprising I haven't bothered to get into the solution.

    Actually, can you just clarify? From what I can make out, your position is either:
    1) The problem of induction exists, but you have now solved it.
    2) The problem of induction does not exist, and I am wrong to say it does

    Which is it? Or if not what?

    - Daniel



    Post 109

    Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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    Jeff writes:
    >Clearly you and I have very different views of what 'truth' is.

    By 'truth' I mean correspondence to the facts. I would think we agree, no?

    I think the confusion we have is over "induction". I say induction is, in its simplest terms, *the theory that the more something has happened in the past, the more likely it is to happen in the future*. It is a theory with an *ampliative* effect. If the sun rose x number of times before, this increases the probability it will do the same tomorrow.

    Could you just explain what you mean by it? Rest assured, I will not quarrel over which is the right definition. If they differ - and it seems by your hammer example they do - I am perfectly happy to forego my usage of the term and stick to yours, as I do not consider arguments over terms important.

    - Daniel
    (Edited by Daniel Barnes
    on 6/09, 11:07pm)


    Post 110

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:45amSanction this postReply
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    Jordan:

    Sure. It's there. Just because I didn't organize it in the form of a syllogism doesn't mean it's not deductive.
    The conclusion must be 100% certain as drawn from the premises for your argument to be deductive. Your conclusion was, "My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism." (Emphasis mine). "Probably" denotes some level of certainty that's not 100%. Therefore, your argument is not deductive.

    If it were a statement about broken windows, Jordan, that would be true. But it isn't. It's a 100% certain deductive statement about a probability.
    • Given: Screaming at the children angers them.
    • Given: Angry children are sometimes vandalous.
    • Therefore: My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism.
    It's a deductive statement that, rephrased, would say:
    • There is a particular probability, though unknown, that the children I screamed at broke my windows.
    The tipoff is that it's not an inductive statement, i.e, one has not observed angry children break windows in the past.

    Also, I don't think there's a "problem of deduction" because deduction is, in my view, derived from irrefutable, inescapable, omnipresent propositions -- i.e., axioms (as Objectivists use the term). I'm not even sure if "derived from" is the right terminology. It might make more sense to say that deduction is just a rearrangement or application of axioms. 
    It would be interesting to see someone expand on that.
    Induction doesn't have this advantage. Inductive conclusions are, by their very nature, uncertain, so no matter how hard you try, you won't be able to patch induction with "axioms" and still have it be induction.
    This sounds like Daniel's line of thought.

    Uncertainty IS in the nature of induction, and the purpose of axiomatizing its basis is NOT an attempt to "cure" what is inherent in its nature. It would be misleading to characterize my efforts in this way.
    To be sure, induction's uncertainty bugs me, but not too much, because (and here's where Daniel and I disagree) induction has worked well in the past, so inductively I can say that it'll probably work well in the future.
    Induction works well because there is much order in the universe. It also works well because our minds have evolved to perceive order, as well as test it by comparison with further observation.
    This is not a logical justification; it's more an appeal to utility. But let me quickly qualify this appeal by saying that induction, though probably necessary for advancing theories, is not sufficient for doing so.  
    Actually, induction is as much a logical justification for induction as deduction is a logical justification for deduction.

    Actually, neither deduction nor induction alone are sufficient. Of the two, though, "pure" deduction has far less explicit utility in the real world than induction. The reason is that one can rarely know everything, and our premises usually have inductive components.

    Nathan Hawking


    Post 111

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 1:05amSanction this postReply
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    Daniel:

    Nathan:
    >Daniel, when people argue seriously that "there is only one future" but that we nevertheless still have freedom or choice or volition, I will NEVER assume that ANY argument is not serious.

    Can I ask what this has to do with the problem of induction?
    Sure. Nothing. It has to do with what you said you thought was obviously tongue-in-cheek.
    >That's one possible explanation. Another is that I'm dense. Yet another is that you're wrong.

    Here's another possibility: you're not dense, but you're just not getting it fully yet because you only found out about the problem 5 minutes ago!
    That would assume much.
    >How difficult could it be it present a brief outline of what you see as HIS solution? You refer to it repeatedly, and I've asked repeated that you summarize it.

    Well, because I keep having to explain - obviously inadequately - *what the problem is* before there is any point in explaining Popper's solution. But when I do, you insist doggedly that the problem doesn't even exist, and that I'm wrong! So it is hardly suprising I haven't bothered to get into the solution.
    Stating the proposed solution might, at the least, explain what Popper thought the problem was.
    Actually, can you just clarify? From what I can make out, your position is either:

    1) The problem of induction exists, but you have now solved it.

    2) The problem of induction does not exist, and I am wrong to say it does.
    That depends upon what you mean by "exists."

    The problem surely exists as a statement of what someone thinks is a problem.

    But if I invalidate the terms of the putative problem itself, as I believe I have, is that a solution or a nonexistent problem?

    Either way, it would at the very least be interesting for you to produce here what you think actually SOLVES a problem you believe exists, irrespective of whether I've invalidated it or not.

    Nathan Hawking


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    Post 112

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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    Nathan,

  • Given: Screaming at the children angers them.
  • Given: Angry children are sometimes vandalous.
  • Therefore: My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism.
  • That conclusion is not guaranteed from those premises. The argument is not deductive.

    Also, I'm not sure know why you posit your "axiom of order" if not to try and make induction certain.

    Jordan


    Post 113

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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    Jordan:

    • Given: Screaming at the children angers them.
    • Given: Angry children are sometimes vandalous.
    • Therefore: My broken windows are probably their acts of vandalism.
    That conclusion is not guaranteed from those premises. The argument is not deductive.
  • This would probably look more like deduction to you:
    • Angry children break my windows.
    • I made some children angry.
    • Therefore they broke my windows.
    There the subject of my syllogism is children breaking my windows.

    In my previous syllogism the proximate subject was not children breaking my windows but the PROBABILITY that children broke my windows. If we are to deny that this is a fitting subject, then we'd have to deny the following validity of syllogistic form:
    • If X then Y is _______.
    • X.
    • Therefore Y is _______.
    Does it make a logical difference whether we use "blue" or "probable" in that statement?

    In short, disallowing such use, we could not use deductive reasoning about probabilities. Most matheticians would dispute that notion. 

    If using "probable" is not deduction, then what is it? 


  • Also, I'm not sure know why you posit your "axiom of order" if not to try and make induction certain.
    By nature, induction can NEVER be certain. But proponents of "the problem of induction" often go beyond denial of certitude - they claim that induction can have NO efficacy and that their problem, as propounded, demonstrates that.

    But I have shown that induction arises because order is 1) a fundamental fact of the universe, and 2) a fundamental component of percepton. Given these, induction is as fitting a justification for induction as deduction is for deduction, if by "justification" we are referring to general efficacy and not certitude.

    Further, I have shown that the "problem of induction" as sometimes posed contains the hidden requirement that induction behave in a manner contrary to its nature, an observation which solves or invalidates the problem as stated.

    Nathan Hawking




  • Post 114

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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    Nathan,

    This would probably look more like deduction to you:
    • Angry children break my windows.
    • I made some children angry.
    • Therefore they broke my windows.
    Nope. That's not deduction either, even though you correctly identified modus ponens just after this example. If you want to say "If X, then probably Y; X, therefore probably Y," that is deductively valid (even though it might be unsound). No prob. Go ahead and rephrase your example like that, and let's see what we get.
    But I have shown that induction arises because order is 1) a fundamental fact of the universe, and 2) a fundamental component of percepton. Given these, induction is as fitting a justification for induction as deduction is for deduction, if by "justification" we are referring to general efficacy and not certitude.
    I know you think you've shown this, but most of us are still unpersuaded. We've argued that (1) order does not necessarily exist by referencing folks who've gotten by just fine without identifying correct orders, (2) by suggesting that it might be the case that our minds impose order on an otherwise chaotic world, and (3) just by pointing out that naming order as fundamental doesn't do anything for proving it. And anyway, how would you falsify your view that order exists?

    Next, again, deduction via deduction is more compelling than induction via induction because the rules for deduction are irrefutably and inescapably valid. In contrast, the rules for induction are not irrefutably and inescapably valid. This means that all of our inductive conclusions could be wrong due to flawed logic, which to me is clearly a problem. And because deductive conclusions can't be wrong due to flawed logic, there is no "problem of deduction."

    -Jordan


    Post 115

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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    Jordan:

     

    This would probably look more like deduction to you:
    • Angry children break my windows.
    • I made some children angry.
    • Therefore they broke my windows.
    Nope. That's not deduction either, even though you correctly identified modus ponens just after this example. If you want to say "If X, then probably Y; X, therefore probably Y," that is deductively valid (even though it might be unsound). No prob. Go ahead and rephrase your example like that, and let's see what we get.

    I think it's a valid form, but you're free to show why you think it isn't. I think you may be reading it the wrong way.


    But I have shown that induction arises because order is 1) a fundamental fact of the universe, and 2) a fundamental component of percepton. Given these, induction is as fitting a justification for induction as deduction is for deduction, if by "justification" we are referring to general efficacy and not certitude.
    I know you think you've shown this, but most of us are still unpersuaded. We've argued that (1) order does not necessarily exist by referencing folks who've gotten by just fine without identifying correct orders

    But I didn't do that. I axiomatized order.

    Axioms are assumptions which need no proof. One can DEFINE something like existence and order ostensively, but an assumption does not need demonstratiing. In order to repudiate either existents or order you are forced to employ them.
    (2) by suggesting that it might be the case that our minds impose order on an otherwise chaotic world, and
    This doubtless happens sometimes. But since I've posited order as both a metaphysical and an epistemological axiom, it follows than a consciousness which has evolved in this universe is able to perceive order which has actual referents in objective reality.
    (3) just by pointing out that naming order as fundamental doesn't do anything for proving it. And anyway, how would you falsify your view that order exists?
    How would you falsify your view that "existence exists," or in my terms, "existents exist"?

    An axiom is assumed. I repeat: In order to repudiate either existents or order you are forced to employ them.
    Next, again, deduction via deduction is more compelling than induction via induction because the rules for deduction are irrefutably and inescapably valid.
    Classic question-begging. 'Deduction is valid because the rules for deduction are irrefutably and inescapably valid.'
    In contrast, the rules for induction are not irrefutably and inescapably valid.
    Then refute them. They (THE RULES) are only invalid if we live in an unordered universe or have a consciousness which is - if it were somehow possible - incapable of perceiving order.
    This means that all of our inductive conclusions could be wrong due to flawed logic, which to me is clearly a problem. And because deductive conclusions can't be wrong due to flawed logic, there is no "problem of deduction."
    I disagree. The only way all our inductive beliefs could ALL be  wrong is if we were 1) incapable of perceiving order in objective reality or 2) there was no objective order, in which case we would not exist.

    Jordan, it's beginning to feel like the discussion is going in circles. I'm repeating myself a lot. Unless someone comes up with a truly fresh argument, I'm inclined to let the matter rest for now.

    Nathan Hawking



     


    Post 116

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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    Has this argument reached a point where people are arguing over differences that don't matter?

    One of the beautiful things about Popper's view of falsification, no matter what you think of induction, is the way it enables us to deal with paradoxes between common sense and science.  I think individuals who cannot handle paradoxes at all suffer from limited imaginations.  To such individuals, non-contradiction is everything.


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    Post 117

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel:
    >>Actually, can you just clarify? From what I can make out, your position is >>either:
    >>1) The problem of induction exists, but you have now solved it.
    >>2) The problem of induction does not exist, and I am wrong to say it does.

    Nathan:
    >That depends upon what you mean by "exists."

    Hey, you're not going to come over all verbalist with me now...?;-)

    >>Either way, it would at the very least be interesting for you to produce here what you think actually SOLVES a problem you believe exists, irrespective of whether I've invalidated it or not.

    OK. Perhaps I'll put the issue another way, so it will emerge more clearly. I'll break this down by-the-book, as simply yet thoroughly as I can make it. Sorry, it will have to be long-ish.

    You can put the problem of induction this way - as the question of the *truth of universal laws or statements* (eg"All swans are white") which are *based on experience*. Yet obviously an "experience" can be only singular statement ("A swan is white") not a universal one. So, when people say a universal law is "known by experience" what they are really saying is the truth of a universal statement can be reduced to the truth of singular statements, which are known by experience to be true; which, in turn, is simply a way of asking *whether inductive inferences are logically justified*.

    With me so far?

    But obviously if we want to find such a way of justifying such inferences, we will need to establish *a principle* for doing so: *a principle of induction*. This would be a statement which would put inductive inferences together to form a universal truth. But – one slight problem. How are we to know the “principle of induction” is itself true? If we try to regard its truth as “known from experience”, then the same problem will arise all over again. To justify this principle, we will have to use inductive inferences; thus assuming a higher principle which is true; which in turn will require inductive inferences, and so forth. So the attempt to show that a principle of induction is actually *true based on experience* breaks down, as it leads to an infinite regress.

    So any principle of induction – which is a theory of truth based on experience – *cannot itself be shown to be true based on experience*!

    And *that* is why it is not logical. OK? It's not some kind of clash of two internally consistent systems.

    Hume, a dedicated rational empiricist himself, was distressed by this finding. Like you, he could not conceive of human knowledge without induction. Yet there was no escaping it – *there was no rational reason to believe induction was true*. So he decided belief in induction must be a kind of irrational human habit. Faced with the same conundrum centuries later, Bertrand Russell came at it from a different angle, deducing that as we seemingly need it so much for science, induction must be some kind of un-analysable, free-standing logical principle, impervious to both normal logic and experience.

    Of course, both approaches unwittingly open the door to irrationalism. For if you can have an un-analysable, freestanding principle for discovering truth, a principle that is impervious to both logic and experience, well then so can I, L Ron Hubbard, the Reverend Sun Yung Moon and both their dogs!

    Popper, however, viewed the whole problem as being misguided. No-one, he said, ever seriously considered that we might be able to get along *without* induction – that there might be a method of empricism that might be logically justifiable.

    This method, he proposed, was falsifiability. He noticed the assymetry between confirmation and falsification – how no amount of white swans could establish a universal law with certainty, but one black one could falsify it with certainty. And of course, there is nothing "inductive" about *one* observation!

    So what he proposed was this: *we may propose hypothetical laws or theories on any basis* – on something we saw once, twice, a thousand times or never! (like Einstein’s theory of relativity) It may be something we dreamed, read about, someone told us, we misread – anything. Unlike induction, the source of our theory is irrelevant.

    What we must then do is *test our theory rigorously* by both argument (like logic) and experience (experiment, observation). Not to prove it is true, which we cannot, *but to prove it is false*! If it survives our testing, which should be as imaginative and rigorous as possible, we may assume it is true, but we will never be absolutely certain. *We can only be certain that it is false* (and of course, even that "certainty" has the same issues of instrument precision, reliability of observation etc that induction has, so we may discount that particular sense of the word in comparing them).

    Now Popper suggests that in fact *falsification* – proposing theories and testing them – is what humans have been doing all along. It just *looks like induction*. So humans *are* actually rational after all, and don’t require illogical beliefs as sources of knowledge.

    To see the comparison, let’s take a banal example like eating apples. The inductivist assumes that we only know "eating apples is good" because we’ve eaten some non-specific number of them, and have therefore inferred that they were good. The falsificationist replies that we have got the idea from anywhere that apples are good – perhaps our mother told us, perhaps we read it somewhere, perhaps we like the colour red, perhaps we are guessing rather optimistically because we are hungry! We eat one – and it is good. So our proposed theory that "apples are good" survives. Now that theory may get tested several times – in fact we may develop the psychological expectation that apples are good. But of course this in no way guarantees that the next apple we eat might not be bad – and indeed, our theory that apples are good will be falsified by the first bad apple we eat, and must then be amended to “apples are good, except ones with large worms in them”. So you can see we are perfectly able to get along without induction. And even better, we don’t have to worry about theories being true with “absolute certainty”, as you quite rightly point out. It is simply not necessary – the quest for it is “the central mistake” of philosophy as Popper says.

    Finally – and this is one of the things that makes Popper’s theory not just powerful, but beautiful - unlike induction, where the scientist is a kind of chartered accountant of the universe, dutifully logging examples which turn inexorably into theories, falsification brings into imagination into play in a vital role in growing human knowledge. Imagination proposes, reason disposes. The scientist is no longer a fleshy pocket calculator, but now is a kind of artist – an exceptionally rigorous one!

    So that’s it, as brief and clear as I could make it. Phew. Now I need to test my theory that beer is good after lots of typing...;-)

    - Daniel



















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    Post 118

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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    Hi Nathan,

    I'll give up soon. ;)

    This -  
  • Angry children break my windows.
  • I made some children angry.
  • Therefore they broke my windows.
  • - is just a string of premises with no clear connections. There's nothing in there that says that the children you made angry are the same ones that broke your windows. Here're one way to make this deductive:

    If my window breaks, then angry children (probably) broke it,
    My window breaks,
    Therefore, angry children (probably) broke it.

    That's valid although it might be unsound.
     I axiomatized order.
    I axiomitize that an evil demon exists and is controlling my every move. Now we're even. :-) <shakes his head>. That's just not my understanding of how axioms work in the Objectivist sense...or otherwise.
    In order to repudiate either existents or order you are forced to employ them.
    Maybe it'll help if you define "order" because several of us have shown how it can be rejected without assuming it, as I summed up in my last post, which you dismissed out of hand because you've "axiomitized order," thus relieving yourself of the burden of proof. Order (as I understand its usage here) doesn't need to exist for people to survive without it. Existence does. One cannot reject existence without assuming it. (please read on.)
    How would you falsify ... "existents exist"?
    It's my understanding that falsification isn't normally (or at least, seriously) applied to deductive statements. Consider: how do we prove false that bachelors are unmarried or that (Euclidean) squares are rectangles? We must find married bachelors and unrectangular squares, but that's pretty silly because we are certain that each of these counter-instances definitively cannot exist (unless you're Quine).  Similarly, existence or an existent cannot not exist; it must exist. Definitively. Define order, and we'll see how far it gets us.
    Classic question-begging. 'Deduction is valid because the rules for deduction are irrefutably and inescapably valid.'
    Which question am I begging? Is it: what makes deduction valid? The answer is: irrefutable and inescapable truths. You might then ask: why are these truths inescapable and irrefutable? And I'd answer: they just are; try to refute and escape them yourself if you don't believe me. (This same line of questioning won't work for your "axiom of order," not unless you define order in a peculiar way.)
    They (THE RULES) [of induction] are only invalid if we live in an unordered universe or have a consciousness which is - if it were somehow possible - incapable of perceiving order.

    Humans often draw wrong inductive conclusions. Sometimes we misinterpret what we observe, and sometimes we mis-generalize from our observations. Inductive rules aren't failsafe; deductive rules are.

    -Jordan


    Post 119

    Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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    Daniel:

    That's some long post. My inclination is to respond to the parts of it as usual, but as I said to Jordan, it feels like I'm repeating myself a lot.

    So unless I see anything really new in your post, I'm letting it go at that.
    If we try to regard its truth as “known from experience”, then the same problem will arise all over again. To justify this principle
    I don't recall you ever making it clear what you mean by "justify."
    And *that* is why it is not logical. OK? It's not some kind of clash of two internally consistent systems.
    I disagree, but will leave it at that.
    So what he proposed was this: *we may propose hypothetical laws or theories on any basis* – on something we saw once, twice, a thousand times or never!
    I agree with that, but it doesn't dispense with induction in everyday life.
    Now Popper suggests that in fact *falsification* – proposing theories and testing them – is what humans have been doing all along. It just *looks like induction*. So humans *are* actually rational after all, and don’t require illogical beliefs as sources of knowledge.
    As I said to Jordan, I think falsification is inherent in the nature of induction. I obviously disagree with the "illogical," part, of course, because I think induction has a logical basis. But we've been through that aplenty.
    So you can see we are perfectly able to get along without induction. And even better, we don’t have to worry about theories being true with “absolute certainty”, as you quite rightly point out. It is simply not necessary – the quest for it is “the central mistake” of philosophy as Popper says.
    I see induction where you don't, though. But I don't care to argue that any further at this point.
    So that’s it, as brief and clear as I could make it. Phew. Now I need to test my theory that beer is good after lots of typing...;-)
    Daniel, it was kind of you to type all that. I will consider and make use of that material when I present my thoughts on this in a more organized and formal way. Thanks.

    Nathan Hawking



     


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