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Post 0

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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I wanted the views of other people on the forum on this since most of the posts I have read seem to support the war.

George W. Bush entered the war in Iraq on the presumption that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD which he had not revealed to the U. N. weapons inspectors. Thus the premise was that Saddam would use his WMD to attack either the U. S. or its allies and therefore, Iraq had to be attacked and the WMD destroyed.

I do not dispute that Saddam Hussein was a despot, and that the world is better off without him in power in Iraq than otherwise.

But I do dispute the premise on which this war was entered into. George W. Bush would have been much better off claiming that this was a war to remove a despot and establish a liberal democracy than claiming that this was a war to protect U. S. citizens or the allies of the United States.

In this context, the war in Afghanistan was fought on a much more truthful basis, namely, that the Taliban was supporting Al-Qaeda and was therefore a threat to the security of the United States or allies.

The criticism that liberals and the rest of the world have stems from the fact that Bush was unable to justify, in the light of the facts which emerged later, that his war in Iraq was based on a truthful premise.

Again, I am not supporting the Michael Moore style liberals who believe that Iraq should not have been attacked at all. To give credit where it is due, George W. Bush did win a war for liberal democracy and did get rid of a man who is comparable to Adolf Hitler in his atrocities. But I do think that Bush should be more careful about the premises on which he enters his next war.

Post 1

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Siddharth, thanks for pointing out some problems with the War. Sun Tzu maintained if you know yourself (your army and fighting capabilities) and you know your enemy, your chances for victory are highly probable. Without knowing your enemy, your chances are mixed, win some, lose some.
 
It is clear we didn't know our enemy (and
still don't), and in some ways by inserting untrained and raw reserves units, we didn't know ourselves or our capabilities.
 
Fighting a war against a strange culture without knowing the language, the land, the people, or having a friendly "ocean" of support from amongst the people, is an extremely hazardous endeavor. We pursued this in Vietnam to disastrous results. Apparently, the Bush Administration was not willing to pay attention to recent history.
 
I don't think it is a matter of supporting the war, but a matter of supporting the way it is was conducted. Why divert from Bin Ladin to Hussein, overextend one's combat resources, and get involved in something not directly connected to Al Queda? There were many other alternatives to sending in untrained troops and reserve units. What was the rush? Why not train Iraqi insurgency units? Why not rely more on the Kurds?
 
Overall, the Bush Administration has fumbled the ball badly, and by saying we are safer now than ever, is setting us up for more internal terrorism.
 
To me, it is not a matter of Michael Moore and the anti-American crowd. It is a matter of having a clear pro-life philosophy, projecting it to the world, and standing behind one's troops.
 
Instead, what we have seen is gross incompetency at the highest levels of the Administration, a failure to target Al Queda, and a failure, once again, to listen to experienced military men, who know what it is like behind the sandbags. With this type of leadership, one can expect exactly what we are getting.


Post 2

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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To understand the reasons we invaded Iraq, it is best to look at the policy advisors who influenced Bush, rather than Bush himself.  Doing so would reveal centers of influence like Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Perle, etc., in other words neoconservatives.  The neocons have had plans and ambitions to invade Iraq long before 9-11, as is documented in the policy papers of the Project for the New American Century which many of them signed on to.  Reading these papers (and other related writings) makes it clear to me that the neocons would have invaded Iraq even with solid intelligence showing Iraq did NOT posess WMD's because:

1. They knew that there was a perception amongst Islamic terrorists that America is a "paper tiger," and if you cause Americans a little pain and suffering, they will eventually withdraw, just like we did in Vietnam, Somalia, etc.  Invading Iraq and setting up a new puppet regime would show that the US has both the capability and the will to go in on the ground and succeed.  It was in many ways a show of strength (shock and awe).  The theory is that doing so will force changes in behavior amongst other regimes that support islamic extremism, for they might then be next.

2.  Having Iraq as a new base of operations in the Middle East would be a good point for follow on operations against other Arab regimes, given its proximity to Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and so forth.

3. Control of Iraqi oil would give them leverage against the Saudis and OPEC's strong influence on the world oil markets.

4. Iraq was seen as being the most likely country to convert to a Western style democracy (a la Turkey perhaps) given that they were already under secular rule, had oil wealth to use for rebuilding, had a decent middle class compared to other Arab countries, and there was an organized opposition movement of exiles that promised to help out with the transitional government (some help Chalabi turned out to be for that, huh?)

9-11 , combined with the relatively easy overthrow of the Taliban, was all that the necons needed to believe that Iraq was the next logical step in their program.  However, Bush chose to sell the war on arguments that he thought would garner the most public support: WMD's, alleged Iraq-Al Quaeda ties, Sadam is evil, enforcing UN Resolutions (I find it funny that most of the people who used the UN argument were people that don't even believe the UN should exist), and so on.  

What they didn't realize is that the Iraq took a cue from the Taliban, and most likely dispersed their loyalists into the populace immediately prior to US takeover so as to engage the US in a long, drawn out terrorist/geurilla conflict, which of course continues to this day in both Iraq and Afghansitan.  They also disregarded the middle east foreign policy truism that an Islamic country will never accept Western values imposed on them by force.

Today, our president continues to say that we need to promote "democracy" in the middle east.  This annoys me because democracy in and of itself simply means either elections or majority rule.  Perhaps nowhere in the world is 'tyranny of the majority' more likely than in the Middle East.  What the president (hopefully) really means when he says 'democracy' is constitutional liberalism, that is a gov't whose goal is to protect the individual rights of its citizens.  Included among the many reforms that would help the Islamic world catch up are freedom of speech, right to private property, separation of church and state, elections as the means of choosing leaders and so on.  This approach would be problematic for Bush, however.   For one thing, his declaring of secularism as a universal value would anger his support base in the religious Right, and would probably even clash with his own religious views. 

My own opinion is that time will ultimately tell whether the cost of going to war was worth the gains.  However, I am already convinced that Bush is one of the worst possible individuals to lead such a war.  This war requires a leader who can level with the American people, engage those who make well reasoned arguments that the costs of this war don't exceed the benefits, and most importantly someone who can clarify the specific values and principles that America stands for. 

Bush is not that man.


Post 3

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

I am already convinced that Bush is one of the worst possible individuals to lead such a war.  This war requires a leader who can level with the American people, engage those who make well reasoned arguments that the costs of this war don't exceed the benefits, and most importantly someone who can clarify the specific values and principles that America stands for. 

Bush is not that man.


As you see it, what is the nature of the war that remains, and who should be the man who leads it?

I'm not trying to bait you. I just don't think you quite finished your thought, and I'm curious.

Post 4

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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In short, I think a leader is needed who can in some way clarify the values of the West, especially as they contrast with the negative influences of the Islamic world.  One of the key differences between Western society and the society advocated by Islamists is the role of religion in government.  If we declared secularism as a universal value, it would draw the line between secular societies and Islamic theocracies.  Bush's own religiosity thus sends a very confusing message to the rest of the world, both to Europe who is less likely to jump on board with assistance, and more importantly to the moderate Muslims (who represent our only chance at meaningful reform and change in the Middle East).

Who is that leader? I don't know.  Certainly not someone as wishy washy as John Kerry.  There are no easy choices for people of an Objectivist or libertarian persuasion in this election.  Just about every choice invovles a leap of faith assumption that the slope won't become too slippery... 


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