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Post 40

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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To anyone who has equated the Big Bang Theory with a move or shift from non-existence to existence:

If following Occam's Razor carries epistemologic weight, then it is more likely that existence existed - albeit in a heretofore unfathomable state - before the Big Bang as well as after.  Whatever it was, it was - and it had the potentiality (dictated by Identity) to develop into existence as we know it. 

This is more reasonable than postulating the absence of existence (and not the absurdity: "presence" of non-existence) and a creation by a consciousness that was conscious of nothing (because nothing had existed yet) and used for, instead of the usual function of awareness - which captures the notion of the identity of a consciousness - an act of creation instead.

P.S. Science, by definition, cannot refute (or be used in order to refute) valid reasoning and the noncontradictory integration of evidence (see excerpts on 'spiral nature of knowledge' for more).

Ed


Post 41

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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The fact that someone has a feeling that god might exist may tell you something about that person's values and beliefs -- but it tells you nothing about whether or not god actually exists.
Michael.

As I said, I originally thought I would philosophically conclude there was NO God, as it turns out, it appears reasonable to assume that a creator started the universe{big bang}.
Intuition can be a premiss, but obviously reason has sovereignty, ie, when I declare aspects of mystery, I'm doing so in an attempt to reconcile the known facts, ie, big bang and observed universe.

I'm still curious why Objectivists accept an eternal universe rather than the admittedly tentative but nevertheless empirically substaintial big bang theory?


Post 42

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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A great post, Ed.

You have re-focused us on the fact that A is A, that its axiomatic nature means it need not be "defended", and that anything that contradicts it can and must be rejected out of hand.

This is more reasonable than postulating the absence of existence (and not the absurdity: "presence" of non-existence) and a creation by a consciousness that was conscious of nothing (because nothing had existed yet) and used for, instead of the usual function of awareness - which captures the notion of the identity of a consciousness - an act of creation instead.


It will be entertaining to watch those who try to wiggle off this hook -- and try they will.


Post 43

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Fish are yummy!

But let's remember, it is not a case of likelihood or being "more reasonable"--it is in the nature of being qua being.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 4/29, 7:00am)


Post 44

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Rodney.
 
You asked: >>For the record, you have used the word "irrational" in that context. And from what you say here, you meant it. Correct?<<
 
When I have wanted to deliver a pointed rebuke to an Objectivist in this forum, I have used "irrational" as the word is understood in Objectivism.  However, in my normal intercourse with others, I would not judge someone as irrational in the Objectivist sense because he holds beliefs contrary to my own.  He is merely mistaken.

You then asked: >>Secondly, could you please restate here your definition of God (because I'm sure you must have given it somewhere at SOLO), as accurately and completely as possible? (If you prefer, simply direct me to the earlier post where you told us what you mean by God.) I already have a good idea of your meaning, of course, but your own summation would be helpful in framing my reply.<<

 
I've never offered such a definition in this forum.  For the record, my belief in God is the orthodox Roman Catholic triune deity -- although I've never gotten the hang of the post-Vatican II fashion of calling the Holy Ghost the Holy Spirit.  I hope that provides you with the information you need.  If not, let me know.
 
Regards,
Bill a.k.a. Citizen Rat


Post 45

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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  1. Then you don't simply mean "contrary to reason"? You don't think Objectivists are guilty of bad reasoning?
  2. Could you outline why you believe in that highly specific form of God, rather than simply the noncaused creator of matter and life that seems implied by your reference to experience?
  3. If you must believe in a conventional god, why do you not believe in any of the gods of other religions?


Post 46

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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If following Occam's Razor carries epistemologic weight, then it is more likely that existence existed - albeit in a heretofore unfathomable state - before the Big Bang as well as after.  Whatever it was, it was - and it had the potentiality (dictated by Identity) to develop into existence as we know it. 
Ed.

I consider existence matter and forces, and where there is no matter or forces, there is nothing "physical".


 
This is more reasonable than postulating the absence of existence (and not the absurdity: "presence" of non-existence) and a creation by a consciousness that was conscious of nothing (because nothing had existed yet) and used for, instead of the usual function of awareness - which captures the notion of the identity of a consciousness - an act of creation instead.
Consciousness is an atribute of animals and humans, it's a terrestrial quality....remember, I have no evidence of God via revelation, all I "can" know is via observation and reason, and all I really know with any kind of certainty is that he must have created matter and forces lest I accept an eternal universe, which isn't working for me at this stage!


P.S. Science, by definition, cannot refute (or be used in order to refute) valid reasoning and the noncontradictory integration of evidence (see excerpts on 'spiral nature of knowledge' for more).

I'm suggesting that the big bang theory and the supporting empirical evidence was being ignored/downplayed.
After reviewing your answer, I'm left unsatisfied as ideally all the evidence should be considered, and when we consider the evidence of the big bang, we have a creation event, and as it seems more reasonable to assume that something* created something else, then I'm comfortable with the notion of a transcedent God being that something in a conceptual sense...I'm not assigning physcial qualities to God.

*If necessary I can rewrite this sentence as "sometranscendent created something", ie, as a necessary inference to explain all the evidence.


Post 47

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Rodney.

You asked some questions:

>>1. Then you don't simply mean "contrary to reason"? You don't think Objectivists are guilty of bad reasoning?<<
 
My reluctance to use the word "irrational" is because of its moral connotation in Objectivism.  In the normal course of things, I am not going to judge someone immoral because he holds beliefs contrary to reason.  It's not that I want to be a pleasant non-judgmental sort of fellow, but that certainty of such a judgment is problemmatical (as I laid out in my post refuting Smith's judgment of me) -- and I prefer to be right rather than self-righteous.
 
More important, assigning moral weight to such things waters down morality in much the same way charging a regrettable assignation from the previous night as "date rape" reduces the heinousness of a genuine rape.
 
So, yes I do think Objectivists are guilty of bad reasoning, but I'll soft pedal that as merely mistaken rather than irrational, because I don't view faulty reasoning with the same moral severity as Objectivists do.

>>2. Could you outline why you believe in that highly specific form of God, rather than simply the noncaused creator of matter and life that seems implied by your reference to experience?<<

Because I accept the Catholic teaching that God is not an abstraction but an actor in the history of man.  I find the Gospels persuasive.  As an armchair historian, they smack of history to me rather than fable.  For me it has all been in the details; not a lightning bolt of grace.

This of course is a critical assessment on my part that defies the certain proof some people demand of the world.  But that is their cross to bear, not mine.  It has been my experience that the people who guffaw at according historicity to the Gospels (which is not the same group as those who merely disagree) do not trust themselves to put belief in anything except that which is absolutely certain (in their minds at least).  So why let their limitations influence me?  The more confidence I put in my ability to critically assess the record, the more I found verity in this "highly specific form of God".

>>3. If you must believe in a conventional god, why do you not believe in any of the gods of other religions?<<

My belief is that many of these other gods are imperfect revelations of the God of my belief, in accord with the Seeds of the Word doctrine of Catholicism.

This is another reason why I will not judge people immoral for holding beliefs contrary to mine.  They may grasp the truth imperfectly (indeed, sometimes almost not all), but it is still truth they seek.  If a person is going in the right direction, who am I to second guess the particular path he is taking?

Regards,
Bill a.k.a. Citizen Rat


Post 48

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I haven't been following this thread due to being very busy lately but IMHO your post 40 was right on the button regarding the big bang :-)

MH


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Post 49

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Michael & Matthew,
Thanks for the explicit identification (declaring that something of value was captured/conveyed by my earlier words/post). 

David,
Consciousness is an atribute of animals and humans, it's a terrestrial quality....remember, I have no evidence of God via revelation, all I "can" know is via observation and reason, and all I really know with any kind of certainty is that he must have created matter and forces lest I accept an eternal universe, which isn't working for me at this stage! 
David, I find your reasoning here unclear.  You appear to be inconsistent with some concepts such as when you say that ...
... I have no evidence of God via revelation, all I "can" know is via observation and reason ...
and ...
... all I really know with any kind of certainty is that he must have created matter and forces ... 
David, I realize that you have a dichotomy set up here ("... lest I accept an eternal universe ...") but that doesn't let you off the hook from my critical evaluation of the nature of your reasoning above.  The 2 statements above simply become unintelligible when made in the same line of reasoning.  Tell me, how did you arrive at the conclusion that your Primacy of Consciousness (God's consciousness initiated existence) inference is 'more certain' that your other "observation"s and "reason"-ing.  I'm asking for a standard to measure your certainty against (something that would have enabled you to have made the evaluation that you are more certain of God than anything else).
After reviewing your answer, I'm left unsatisfied as ideally all the evidence should be considered ... 
But should all the considerations be considered (I implicitly granted the Big Bang as evidence, remember)?  I'm curious, do you have a proposed solution to the problem of evaluating considerations based on a standard? 
... when we consider the evidence of the big bang, we have a creation event ...
 David, define a creation event.  It is imperative that we both know what we are talking about here.  Your claim here seems to quickly advance to a certainty without an adequate, transparent outline of reasoning.

...it seems more reasonable to assume that something* created something else ... 
David, have you ever witnessed (or heard of someone witnessing) the creation of matter before?  What about the apparent indestructibility of matter (its persistent existence)?
... I'm not assigning physcial qualities to God.
David, you are not assigning ANY positive qualities to God, but merely negative ones, such as: 'transcends' reality or 'transcends' our understanding of it.  Even nonsense is 'beyond our understanding' however ($64,000-question:  Do you have a method to distinguish your view from nonsense?).

With the above, I'm asking for an honest reply to my criticisms (not merely attempting to play some sort of game of intellectual one-up-manship with you).

Ed



Post 50

Friday, April 30, 2004 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Tell me, how did you arrive at the conclusion that your Primacy of Consciousness (God's consciousness initiated existence) inference is 'more certain' that your other "observation"s and "reason"-ing.  I'm asking for a standard to measure your certainty against (something that would have enabled you to have made the evaluation that you are more certain of God than anything else).
 
Ed.
 
Firstly Ed, I'm a victim of this paradigm and the ethos level truths, truths that are seemingly undisputable to many people..an example of the emotional intensity of an ethos level truth would be the typical reaction people have against the idea of severe child abuse and the certainty that it's not on....so if you understand my analogy, you can consider that I believe people's reaction to the possible existence of a transcendent being a defiance of an ethos level truth, and thus it seems entirely natural to them that there CANNOT be any God{especially any God that shares details from religious texts, such a the positing of a supernatural realm}.
 
So I don't have gut wrentching certainty, all I have is a belief based on where my knowledge takes me, and my knowledge is limited due to the nature of what I'm considering, ie, God.
As for my standard, it's really down to believeing that it's more plausible to assume a creation event as per the evidence package that supports the big bang, eg, background cosmic radiation and so on....if it weren't for that evidence, then perhaps an eternal universe would suffice of necessity.
 


But should all the considerations be considered (I implicitly granted the Big Bang as evidence, remember)?  I'm curious, do you have a proposed solution to the problem of evaluating considerations based on a standard? 
 
Well, I'm confused here Ed, I don't see how a big bang and an eternal universe are compatible, so unless I'm mistaken, the acceptance of an eternal universe is the rejection of a bang.

 

David, define a creation event.  It is imperative that we both know what we are talking about here.  Your claim here seems to quickly advance to a certainty without an adequate, transparent outline of reasoning.
A creation event is the emergence of matter and forces, and this is the typical view of scientific cosmologists, ie, that matter and forces emerged at the big bang{although obviously very few of them attribute it to God}.


 
David, have you ever witnessed (or heard of someone witnessing) the creation of matter before?
No.

 
What about the apparent indestructibility of matter (its persistent existence)?

Persistent after it was created.

David, you are not assigning ANY positive qualities to God, but merely negative ones, such as: 'transcends' reality or 'transcends' our understanding of it.  Even nonsense is 'beyond our understanding' however ($64,000-question:  Do you have a method to distinguish your view from nonsense?).

With respect Ed, you've assigned transcendence as a negative, I've determined that this concept is necessary for me to reconcile all the evidence...and this reconciliation MUST occur within my lifetime, it can't be an assumption for the distant future, as that would render any evaluation of God as worthless within my lifetime, the time I need it.....and I need it only because it seems to be true, not because I'd become an emotional basket case without it.

Unless you guys can adequately debunk the big bang theory, then it doesn't make sense for me to accept an eternal universe.
Btw, an appeal to an endless cycle of bangs and crunches won't work either as I would consider God as the initiator of the first bang.

David Mayes.






 


Post 51

Friday, April 30, 2004 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Because I accept the Catholic teaching that God is not an abstraction but an actor in the history of man.  I find the Gospels persuasive.  As an armchair historian, they smack of history to me rather than fable.  For me it has all been in the details; not a lightning bolt of grace

Hello Citizen Rat.

I get the feeling that you'd be quite a likeable, talkative and decent fellow in the "real" world, and they're all desirable qualities...unfortuantely I'm far from impressed with man at any point in history, including this ridiculous era which will be defined as the total unravelling of what I call the destructive paradigm*.
*hate of man and nature due to child abuse, where child abuse is the catalogue of idiotic practices that the intellectually and emotionally inadequate consider parenting.

Religious texts aren't the word of God, they're authoritarian doctrines which reflect the mentalities of the ethos, IOW, they're not truth based, but hate based as per the destructive paradigm.
Whilst this paradigm is the best one yet{depending on where you live and with who}, we are heading for some serious ecological problems....at least according to our most esteemed scientists{See the Warning to Humanity Statement 1992, and the GEO-3 report 2002}

More of the same, ie , progress as technological salvation=more enslavement and one world Gov to facilitate the application of it.....or convert to a ECO-NWO, where all people are raised respectfully and with dignity regardless of age or socio-economic status.

So time to dump environmentally destructive practices and face reality{practices which religious texts induce}.
In simple language, all religious texts are garbage and must be updated to reflect reality.

Now, didn't that make you feel better, LOL.


Post 52

Friday, April 30, 2004 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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David:

Unless you guys can adequately debunk the big bang theory, then it doesn't make sense for me to accept an eternal universe.

 
The burden of proof rests with the person making the positive assertion. We do not have to debunk anything. You have to prove big bang to be true. I suggest you visit the forum at objectivismonline.net and read the posts of physicist Stephen Speicher. The following is a sample of what he says about big bang:

When we observe -- as was done not long ago -- a coherent structure some 600 million light years across, and some 6.5 billion light years away, and realize that its existence cannot be accounted for so early in the cosmic history of the supposed Big Bang, then we know we are in trouble.
The big bang has fizzled.

Btw, an appeal to an endless cycle of bangs and crunches won't work either as I would consider God as the initiator of the first bang.

This reveals the essence of your position: You assert that everything must have a starting point, except god, which is permitted to be eternal. I'm still waiting to hear some support for this assertion. 


Post 53

Saturday, May 1, 2004 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael.


We do not have to debunk anything. You have to prove big bang to be true.

No I don't, I only have to believe it to be a valid cosmological account, IOW, the model that best explains and considers the evidence, both physical and mathematical, and once I have that, I can incorporate that level of relative certainty into my thinking.


 I suggest you visit the forum at objectivismonline.net and read the posts of physicist Stephen Speicher. The following is a sample of what he says about big bang:
The big bang has fizzled.
I haven't read that yet....I'll do so when I can, although I'm curious why there hasn't been an outpouring of new superior competing models,...I don't recall hearing about any.
Curious, but I suspect at this stage the big bang model retains its legitimacy as the most coherent model as per the philosophy of science whch allows for obseravtional clashes with theory.



This reveals the essence of your position: You assert that everything must have a starting point, except god, which is permitted to be eternal. I'm still waiting to hear some support for this assertion.

God is a necessary inference to explain my observation....and as I can't know how God emerged, I'm forced to assign an aspect of mystery to his origin, this being palatable to anyone who accepts a pluralistic epistemology, but rejected at the frontline of any doctrine that straight-jackets the knowledge content of their epistemology.
I'm not interested in being dogmatic and worshipping anyone unless they make sense, as it happens, Rand and Objectivists are very sensible on some occasions, but do appear to have developed their cosmological account with the intent of eliminating any power higher than man.

I'm interested in the "Full Truth" baby.







 


Post 54

Saturday, May 1, 2004 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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FYI: Concerning the "Big Bang" cosmological model, the May, 2004 issue of Scientific American has an article entitled: "The Myth of the Beginning of Time", with the subtitle: "String theory suggests that the Big Bang was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state".  It is written by Gabriele Veneziano, a theorist at CERN, who is described as the "father of string theory in the late 1960s"; no lightweight.

To quote from a summary box on page 56:

  • "Philosophers, theologians and scientists have long debated whether time is eternal or finite -- that is, whether the universe has always existed or whether it had a definite genesis.  Einstein's general theory of relativity implies finiteness.  An expanding universe must have begun at the big bang."
  • "Yet general relativity ceases to be valid in the vicinity of the bang because quantum mechanics comes into play.  Today's leading candidate for a full quantum theory of gravity -- string theory -- introduces a minimal quantum of length as a new fundamental constant of nature, making the very concept of a bangian [sic] genesis untenable."
  • "The bang still took place, but it did not involve a moment of infinite density, and the universe may have predated it.  The symmetries of string theory suggest that time did not have a beginning and will not have an end.  The universe could have begun almost empty and built up to the bang, or it might even have gone through a cycle of death and rebirth.  In either case, the pre-bang epoch would have shaped the present-day cosmos." [Emphasis added.]

Thanks,
Glenn.


Post 55

Saturday, May 1, 2004 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
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Hello world.

My position is that God is a necessary inference to explain the universe, that's my evidence.
Your position is that the universe has always been, in whatever configuration,....and there can't be anything that could have created it as that would imply relying on an infinite regress of creators, yet God as I understand it has a conceptual meaning to me based upon the evidence{the universe}, and the reason this is valid is because my concept of a supernatural is valid within a pluralistic espistemology, ie, God must be a supernatural entity, not of the physical world and not subject to being known via science or hardcore empirical based epistemologies which reject non-physical realms.

Objectivists position=Supernatural is an arbitary belief....reject at epistemological level to mesh with overall philosophy of objectivism.
David Mayes position=supernatural is a necessary belief.....incorporate into epistemological level and logically justify for the sake of "full truth".


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Post 56

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 3:35amSanction this postReply
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David:

The Objectivist epistemology is based on the fact that contradictions cannot exist. "A" cannot be "non-A" at the same time and in the same respect. Existence is defined as everything which exists. To postulate the existence of a god that is not part of existence is to postulate the existence of a contradiction -- you are saying that there exists something (god) that does not exist. Objectivism rejects this because we accept that A is A.

Objectivism does not start with some pre-determined hostility to god;  we do not start out with a conclusion and then fashion arbitrary rules of epistemology to ensure that only that conclusion can be reached. We start with the axiom that A is A.

If you wish to embrace a contradiction, you are obviously free to do so. Whether you call it "pluralistic epistemology" or "mystery" or "full truth" -- or that old favorite, "faith" -- it is still the same thing; you've decided to accept a contradiction. But do not smear Objectivism by implying that some secret need for atheism drives us to invent invalid rules of epistemology.

If you wish to attack Objectivist epistemology, attack the axiom that A is A. Attack the statement, "Existence exists".  Atheism is a trivial issue by comparison.


Post 57

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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David,

My position is that God is ...
 
Now that is the question. What is God?

Who knows. Maybe we do believe in God, but it is not possible to know, one way or other, what one believes about a word unless we know what the word refers to.

What are you referring to?

Regi


Post 58

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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Existence is defined as everything which exists. To postulate the existence of a god that is not part of existence is to postulate the existence of a contradiction -- you are saying that there exists something (god) that does not exist. Objectivism rejects this because we accept that A is A.
Come on Michael, when you speak of existence, you've already ruled out at the epistemological level the idea that the supernatural is a valid concept, and that it doesn't constitute a form of existence*, therefore the only outcome of the objectivist's epistemology must be rejection of any view that uses a supenatural realm.
*existence in your mind is that which can be measured/empirically known.

The supernatural has conceptual validity within a pluralitic epistemology which isn't biased against belief as necessity, ie, God as the creator of what we can observe, or suspect to exist via the extension of scientific knowledge{universe}.

 
But do not smear Objectivism by implying that some secret need for atheism drives us to invent invalid rules of epistemology
.

LOL, you don't own epistemology Michael, the purpose of epistemology is to make life meaningful, it isn't to further support hardcore empirical philosophies which have rightly rejected the knowledge of religious texts and their interpretations of God as
having all these knowable qualities....ie, my knowledge of God is conceptual, based on the evidence{universe}, and his location of necessity must be in a supernatural realm. 




Post 59

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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Now that is the question. What is God?
Regi.

God is the creator of the universe, this is a necessary belief to explain the universe.
A=A, tree=tree, physical =physical, supernatural=supernatural.


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