About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Saturday, July 13, 2013 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Both Michaels are making good points here.

Popper called the wrong approach the "Who should rule?" problem and said most political philosophy argues about who should rule, when it should be focussing a lot more on how to set up political systems capable of correcting mistakes about who gets to rule.

What about epistemology? "Which ideas should we start with?" is a bit like "Who should rule?" You're never going to get it perfect and it shouldn't be the primary focus of attention. Instead you want to set things up so if you start with the wrong ideas you can find out the mistake and fix it quickly, easily, cheaply.

error correction is (a lot) more important than starting in a good place.
I agree that asking the question "Who should rule?" is wrong-headed, but that is because it presumes that a man should rule other men -- which is wrong. You can call it a 'smuggler's question' because it tries to smuggle-in a wrong notion about mankind. Importantly, it can be known to be wrong without special empirical investigation into the matter -- it can be known to be wrong from just common empirical input (like the kind you get from merely living as a human being). People sometimes brandish this as "a priori" but there is never anything purely a priori. All reasoning starts not ex nihilo, but instead from a pool of common human experience.

But the question "Which ideas should we start with?" is not like the question "Who should rule?" -- and this is a terribly important distinction. When examining things such as the science of knowing (epistemology), you have to keep context, and part of the context is to note your first principles and your final ends (aims). First principles and final ends tell you how to start in a good place. In the case of the smuggler's question above, the wrong first principle adopted is that a man should rule over other men, and the final end or aim is to trick others into allowing tyranny.

Like Rand said, anyone talking like that is, or wants to be, the dictator. So, on the basis of its false first principles and its morally-wrong final ends -- we can dispense (for all time) with the question: "Who should rule?"

You cannot do this with the epistemological question "Which ideas should we start with"? Questions imply answerability (the potential of there being a correct answer). What was wrong with the political "Who should rule?" question is that it implies that there is a correct answer -- when there is actually not a correct answer. In the case of epistemology, however, there is a correct answer. The final end or aim of epistemology is to answer the 5-word question: "How do you know that?" and some of the first principles of epistemology will involve things like the principle of non-contradiction.

Because there is a known path and a known destination, it can also be known whether you are starting in a good place or not. If this could not be known beforehand -- because of disbelieving that existence is identity, for instance -- then error correction would be a lot more important than starting in a good place.

Ed


Post 21

Saturday, July 13, 2013 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What do you need to know before you can know of such things as error?

Post 22

Saturday, July 13, 2013 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That's another good one, Michael!

:-)

Ed


Post 23

Sunday, July 14, 2013 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
MP:  "What do you need to know before you can know of such things as error?"
Well, nothing more, really.  I mean if the assertion is in error, then it fails to correspond to what is known.  Therefore, you do not need to more.  You know enough. 

With all this philosophizing, I always look to concrete examples.  Feynman insisted on that, also, when bantering with mathematicians.  "A sphere.. You mean like an orange?"  Sure.  Now cut it into an infinitesimal slice.  "You cannot to that with an orange because it ceases to be an orange."  Arrrgh!  "Yes, well... It is your assertion."  My concrete example of the moment is the reconstruction of Linear B as Mycenean Greek.  I read Chadwick on Ventris over the last couple of days.

Indeed, as suggested, mere induction was not enough.  They had the evidence, but no theory.  Then, in a flash, the explanation came.  However, behind that brilliant insight was a long hard history of ordering the known data and thinking about what it meant.







 


Post 24

Monday, July 15, 2013 - 2:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If observation is first, why do optical illusions exist?

For instance, the inverted mask illusion. The human default is to see a face that turns to follow you except if there's enough information to see it correctly (you get closer to it or look at it from an extreme angle).

Post 25

Monday, July 15, 2013 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Optical illusions tell us that our senses and our perceptual mechanism have a nature and identity. Apparent contradictions between percepts and what we think we are seeing give us some important clues about what senses and percepts are and how they work, if we care to explore the matter further.

Post 26

Wednesday, July 17, 2013 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Leonor,

I agree with Michael P. that illusions actually illuminate a counter-intuitive, underlying objectivity to sense-perception. Figuring out that they are illusions tells us that our senses don't lie -- instead, they merely directly pick up stimuli from our stimulus array. An illusion I use in order to show that sense-perception corresponds to reality is the straight stick that, when half-submerged in water, that looks bent:

In this case, instead of picking up one entity (the stick), you are picking up 2 entities (the stick + the water). Because the second entity (the water) causing refraction, we "see" a bent stick even though it is straight. The problem isn't perceptual, but conceptual. It is only when we fail to acknowledge to ourselves that we are looking at 2 entities rather than one -- and that the 2nd entity changes things -- that we get fooled by the illusion. In an extreme case of this, you could have a stick and wall, and you could put the stick behind the wall and complain that the stick "disappeared" and that you cannot trust your senses.

But that is only if you ignore the fact that walls block light, which is the same type of thing -- to a different degree -- that we do with the bent-stick illusion.

Ed

p.s., Here's a cool link to the illusion you mentioned:

Bidirectional Face Illusion


Post 27

Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No, this is totally wrong. It would be interesting to explore so-called "optical illusions" across cultures.  Some might be universal.  However, most of the ones I know of are culturally dependent on previous learning.  I cited this paper in the "Weightless Induction" thread.

"The Weirdest People in the World: How representative are experimental findings from American university students? What do we really know about human psychology?"
Joseph Henrich, Steven J. Heine, Ara Norenzayan

The Behavioral and Brain Sciences 2010 Jun;33(2-3):61-83;
Available from the principle author here.

The paper is a meta-study.  Different people from different cutures perceive reality differently. This includes "visual perception, ...  spatial reasoning, categorization and inferential induction."

You probably have seen coins that were holed for jewelry.  It is common.  As Europeans took their moneys across the oceans, various "first peoples" (natives, primitives) adapted them.  Often, they understood that such things were "valuable" to the white people.  Often, the coins are valued for themselves as ornaments.  Even tropical people who wear no clothing do wear necklaces and wrist bands. The broad history of coinage since 1500 gives us a "coin orienation" and a "medal orientation."  Medals such as the Nobel Prize have the same orientation obverse and reverse: heads and tails have the same up. With coins - look at one - obverse and reverse are opposite: when heads is up, tails is down.  I have one 19th century coin holed at right angles to the devices. Whoever put this on a string did not perceive either the Queen or her Coat of Arms.  The vocabulary of line and space is not universal.

The bidirectional face is a learned trick of the eye. It might not work everywhere.


Post 28

Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike, you know, you can be a real bastard.

I know what you are doing. I know that you know me. So, when you just "casually" say that:
It would be interesting to explore so-called "optical illusions" across cultures.  Some might be universal.
... then you know what my reaction to that will be (i.e., that I will retrieve the scientific studies on the matter). Like a freaking dog salivating at the sound of a bell. 

"Oh, gee, it would be soooo interesting to discover if there are perchance, peer-reviewed, published scientific articles about "X" -- but it is just too bad that there is ... no one around ... who is simultaneously stricken with curiosity and also very highly adept at the retrieval of such documents. Oh well, I guess we will just have to drop the subject ..."

:-)

So, anyway, I found the goods (as usual) and, at first blush, I don't like them: So I am giving them to you as an invitational assignment. Besides, I'm too tired to look through these now. If you care or dare, then look through these 3 studies and get back to me. There may be much to discuss.

1) Modularity and the Cultural Mind: Contributions of Cultural Neuroscience to Cognitive Theory

2) The Scope of Usage-Based Theory

3) Cross-Cultural Differences in the Processing of Non-Verbal Affective Vocalizations by Japanese and Canadian Listeners

Ed


Post 29

Friday, July 19, 2013 - 5:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would add to manna from heaven and arbitrary conjectures imagination as well. Of course imagination is impossible without concepts but there are invalid concepts out there
(Edited by Michael Philip on 7/19, 5:11am)


Post 30

Friday, July 19, 2013 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, optical illusions exist and are sometimes deceptive. How do you correct the deception if not via additional sensory evidence? Sense perception is the foundation of knowledge, but knowledge is not limited to sensory perception, which requires the application of reason to grasp and understand it. Objectivism is neither empiricist nor rationalist, but incorporates both perception and reason in its epistemology.


Post 31

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> They used induction. Sun comes up: here... there... Over and over...

Except when it's cloudy. Except when a person goes blind. Except on June 20th in Antarctica. Etcetera.

Point is, knowldge creation is not that simple. Conjectures and refutations are involved at every level. As David Deutsch wrote in The Beginning of Infinity:

"on any clear night, the chances are that your roof will be struck by evidence falling from the sky which, if you only knew what to look for and how, would win you a Nobel prize."

Even the ancient people who learned to predict when the sun would rise had to learn what to look for, and how.

Post 32

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, regarding "who should rule?", you've understood the 3 word phrase version but not the substantive point behind it. The point is about how error correcting methods are more important than an error-low present state. This point applies in philosophy too.

Post 33

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Elliot,
The point is about how error correcting methods are more important than an error-low present state. This point applies in philosophy too.
I actually got that point but refused to answer it (until now). The problem with Popper is that he is able to start things mid-stream or mid-stage. At any point in a conversation, a Popperian can just jump in with a sense of bravado and over-confidence and ask for a list of the current conjectures in a field -- and a corresponding list of the current refutations of conjectures in a field. This is unsightly. The worst part about this kind of mid-stream activity is the unintentional incorporation of fundamental errors. Let me give you a hypothetical example of this:

----------------------------------------
Current problem: Housing Crisis

Currently-accepted cause of problem: Corporate Greed (a factor which has not varied in 100 years)

Areas to look for a solution to the problem (or to prevent it in the future): Legislation which reduces economic risks by artificially inflating the bubble of a commodity (housing) through extensive "spread-the-wealth-around" subsidies. Legislation which reigns in on irrational millionaires taking risky bets with hundreds of billions of dollars.

Popperian questions: Which kinds of socialist policies will be the best in addressing the housing crisis? What is the best way to re-inflate the commodity bubble artificially? Which redistribution policies will work best with regard to predatory millionaires who pay no attention to the risks that they are taking all of the time in their lives (the very same risks that made them millionaires)?

Popperian solutions: Test a wide variety of socialist policies in order to differentiate among them. Test for the best way to artificially re-inflate commodity bubbles. Test for the best ways to redistribute all of the wealth in the world. Etc.
 ----------------------------------------

Even if I was not generous here -- stating Popper in the best light possible -- there is still some truth here, however imperfect, to the way he would attempt to solve the housing crisis (if he were to be put in charge of solving it).

Ed


Post 34

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
First, you're misapplying Popper. The right approach outside of epistemology is not to do whatever vaguely parallels epistemology. Put another way, you're taking micro-level explanations of how learning works and trying to use them at a macro-level.

Second, there are lots of criticisms of socialism, so I would say proceeding in a socialist manner is out. Only someone who doesn't know the criticisms of socialism would do it, which we can try to deal with by educating him about why socialism is a bad idea, how capitalism enables prosperity, and so on.

Third, you set it up very nicely for a critical approach then didn't follow through:

> Current problem: Housing Crisis
>
> Currently-accepted cause of problem: Corporate Greed (a factor which has not varied in 100 years)

That's very good for a brief statement of the situation. And it lends itself nicely to the criticism: since the factor has been constant a long time, how can it be the cause of modern troubles? I thought it was intended to imply this criticism, but then you continued onto a step other than making this criticism, so I'm a little confused about what you're getting at.

Regardless, using this criticism will help us get going in a better direction to sort the mess out. Uncritically accepting a popular view about what type of solutions to look for is not something I would endorse.


Fourth, the comments about testing are wrong. Experimental-empirical tests are recommended in science in cases where they will help. They are not recommended in all of life even when destructive. The general method is criticism. Tests are one type of criticism to be used when there's no criticism of using it, not universally.

Post 35

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There are many serious shortcomings to Popper's views. The one most recognized by philosophers of science is that if you take Popper at his word, there's no reason at any given time to choose a well-tested and never-defeated physical theory and a never-tested but never-defeated mishmash of occult forces summoned by magical ceremonies. What's distinctive about Popper is how he treated the concept of validation. He wanted to sever logic from ties to reality in the name of having an unassailable method.
(Edited by Michael Philip on 7/28, 8:50pm)


Post 36

Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"There are many serious shortcomings to Popper's views. The one most recognized by philosophers of science is that if you take Popper at his word, there's no reason at any given time to choose a well-tested and never-defeated physical theory and a never-tested but never-defeated mishmash of occult forces summoned by magical ceremonies"

This is incorrect. We have criticisms of that second option, so it's refuted, so we have a reason not to choose it.

Post 37

Monday, July 29, 2013 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed has a very good point here. Popper believed that there was no logic to concept-formation, and that such a logical reason would be a myth, for the same reasons as induction formation is. He saw the tie between concepts and induction, and denied that there was any logical sense to it. All human knowledge is irreducibly conjectural. Rather than having "knowledge", man has "conjectures" -- that is, arbitrary guesses, which one then sets out to disprove by introducing other arbitrary guesses. Let us not forget the influence of Kant as well. It's nothing on stilts, proclaiming itself to be science taking the place of epistemology. There is no logic to any of it. People who deny induction commit serious errors involving hierarchy. They are very bad at conceptual thinking. It's only a "problem" if you have a bad idea of what consciousness is supposed to do in regard to reality.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 38

Monday, July 29, 2013 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Induction is Wrong. A lot.


LOL. Falsification's record of success is as dismal or much worse!

Post 39

Thursday, October 3, 2013 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"But, it is wrong to claim that Stonehenge was built by people who understood the Euclidean foundations of Newton's proof of Kepler's Third Law -- even though Stonehenge was empirical proof of that very law and its underpinning.

They used induction. Sun comes up: here... there... Over and over..."



I think calling it induction is incorrect. It's an example of pattern-finding.

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.